The best structure for an RPG?

[jungl]

Fallout 2 I liked how you can completely miss out on and it'll be somewhat different experience if you ignore Modoc. Kind of like post apocolyptic mutant super hero story I had. When your guy loses his super man theme powers you can eventually go back to your city and see all the citizens treat you like scum and resolve events there differently or you ignore it and events will unfold differently if you come later in the game there.

 

[Farewell into the night]

The best structure is PnP. It's endless, indomitable, unlimited.
cRPGs are flawed, but any type can be fun. If it's well made.

 

[Beastro]

2. One step above is the fake choice structure. Some modern games love to do this: give the player the illusion of choice without actually making the choice matter in any way.

You get a choice, but the quests you follow are still the same, there's literally no gameplay difference. The only thing that's different is that instead of a willing hero, you're a reluctant hero.

There's worse versions of this, like the JRPG choice that doesn't even pretend to have the illusion.

"Oh! Will you stop everything you're doing and help me please? Some bad people are harassing me... so will you help? No? Haha! You're so funny, of course you'll help! So, they hang out in this part town...." *No further progression in main quest and you're locked in the town until this is completed*

 

[Machocruz]

Whatever structure Ultima 4 has.

 

[Sigourn]

Give me linear goals but let me accomplish them through different means.
To me a good story in an RPG is extremely important, and linearity is key. To skip most of Fallout with metagame knowledge will not be as good as playing through the game as it was more or less intended by the developers. But that doesn't mean we can't have choice when it comes to the way to accomplish those goals.

IMO finding the Water Chip in Fallout is the best part of the game. You leave the world with a clue (go to Vault 15) and from then on it is completely up to you to find the chip, which encompasses about 75% of the game.

 

[Trashos]

The problem with linearity is that it can kill a playthrough, especially in longer games. If you HAVE TO do a specific part, and you do not feel like doing it currently, you will either have to show great determination or abandon the playthrough.

In nonlinear games you just choose one of the many available options that you feel like doing, and you go on.

 

[Quillon]

Give me linear goals but let me accomplish them through different means.
To me a good story in an RPG is extremely important, and linearity is key. To skip most of Fallout with metagame knowledge will not be as good as playing through the game as it was more or less intended by the developers. But that doesn't mean we can't have choice when it comes to the way to accomplish those goals.

IMO finding the Water Chip in Fallout is the best part of the game. You leave the world with a clue (go to Vault 15) and from then on it is completely up to you to find the chip, which encompasses about 75% of the game.

Dafuq linear goals mean? Linearity describes the progression in a game. You are describing "goal based structure" itt and it isn't necessarily linear.

 

[AdolfSatan]

Any other "good examples" of this? Cause AoD is the only one that comes to mind, which tells me it's not a popular scheme, if we can only recall one RPG doing it or pulling it off successfully.

Theseus: Journey to Athens is clearly modeled after AoD (very light on its rpg qualities tho). I inclinedly recommend it.

I believe PtD could be considered to be of the third rather than the fourth kind as well, and it's and excellent game.

 

[Excommunicator]

Goal-based structure is the only one which prioritises player choice and freedom over designer narrative and therefore is the patrician's choice

 

[Lilura]

The best examples of goal-based are Fallout and Jagged Alliance 2 (inarguable) whereas the best examples of linear-based are Icewind Dale and Icewind Dale 2 (also inarguable).

Linear-based is underrated by edgy 'Dexers and freedomfags, who think they are more monocled than others because they can make non-combat decisions (such as where to go). But at the end of the day, the most monocled decisions to be made in RPGs are purely combat-based: what is my party composition, how should I build my combat units and how can I most optimally slay the enemy with the resources I have available to me.

Ergo, it's not the structure-type that matters: it's the ruleset, the tactics/strategy employable, the itemization and the combat encounter design that does.

 

[Verylittlefishes]

The best examples of goal-based are Fallout and Jagged Alliance 2 (inarguable) whereas the best examples of linear-based are Icewind Dale and Icewind Dale 2 (also inarguable).

Linear-based is underrated by edgy 'Dexers and freedomfags, who think they are more monocled than others because they can make non-combat decisions (such as where to go). But at the end of the day, the most monocled decisions to be made in RPGs are purely combat-based: what is my party composition, how should I build my combat units and how can I most optimally slay the enemy with the resources I have available to me.

Ergo, it's not the structure-type that matters: it's the ruleset, the tactics/strategy employable, the itemization and the combat encounter design that does.

Iggied (inarguable).

 

[barghwata]

The best examples of goal-based are Fallout and Jagged Alliance 2 (inarguable) whereas the best examples of linear-based are Icewind Dale and Icewind Dale 2 (also inarguable).

Linear-based is underrated by edgy 'Dexers and freedomfags, who think they are more monocled than others because they can make non-combat decisions (such as where to go). But at the end of the day, the most monocled decisions to be made in RPGs are purely combat-based: what is my party composition, how should I build my combat units and how can I most optimally slay the enemy with the resources I have available to me.

Ergo, it's not the structure-type that matters: it's the ruleset, the tactics/strategy employable, the itemization and the combat encounter design that does.

Iggied (inarguable).

I don't recommend ignoring Lilura, you'll be missing out on some high quality autism my friend (inarguable).

 

[whydoibother]

+1 Fake choice structure

The structured and well told story of the linear approach, complete with neatly scripted set pieces, cutscenes, plot, etc, but without the feeling of playing a visual novel. It could be possible to play in any order, or skip parts, like Dragon Age Origins and the way you gather allies there.
I don't like too much freedom, because I don't trust the designers to account for all possibilities, and the end result is nonsensical outcomes (like achieving a goal before I even knew I have that goal, because I entered an area out of order) and doesn't permit for well scripted set pieces or plot.

 

[Riddler]

A (mostly) linear sequence of subgoals where you have multiple paths to solve each goal.

Choice in major goals is a waste of resources and is likely detrimental to the story imo.

 

[barghwata]

And the end result is nonsensical outcomes (like achieving a goal before I even knew I have that goal, because I entered an area out of order) and doesn't permit for well scripted set pieces or plot.

I understand this is your opinion and i will respect it, but i have to ask how in the world is that a bad thing??? Allowing the player to achieve goals and finish quests without even having to recieve them in the first place or know about them makes for excellent and rewarding exploration and allows the player to set out their own goals instead of waiting for the game to give them one.

An example of this is how in Gothic, you can accidentally finish a quest or fulfill an objective while exploring the world and recieve experience for it, and once you eventually meet the NPC that was supposed to give you the quest you can say "oh yea, i already did that actually" and you recieve your reward for it; this is why exploration in Gothic is so good, it's because the player is motivated to explore the world on their own and play the game on their own terms, and the game will reward you for that ..... to each their own i guess.

 

[Sigourn]

Dafuq linear goals mean? Linearity describes the progression in a game. You are describing "goal based structure" itt and it isn't necessarily linear.

I would say The Witcher is somewhat like this. You've got your goals per chapter, but you can do as you please when it comes to those goals. What faction do you join, how do you choose to solve a particular quest, etc. I really like that system because it makes my choices matter for each particular goal without sacrficing the overall story structure.

 

[JarlFrank]

Any other "good examples" of this? Cause AoD is the only one that comes to mind, which tells me it's not a popular scheme, if we can only recall one RPG doing it or pulling it off successfully.

Theseus: Journey to Athens is clearly modeled after AoD (very light on its rpg qualities tho). I inclinedly recommend it.

I believe PtD could be considered to be of the third rather than the fourth kind as well, and it's and excellent game.

I just wish PtD wasn't so fucking crash-prone.

 

[Darth Canoli]

There is some great examples of Goal based cRPg, like Dark Sun and Fallout which are blessed with an amazing quest design, being both interesting and with multiple solutions.

Adding branching on top of that could be a great idea, specially if you have a lot of playable races and classes to spice up the re-playability.

I have a lot of ideas about that, would probably take me 30 millions € or a lifetime to put them into practice.

 

[turkishronin]

3. Now we get to proper branches. A branching structure gives the player actual choices, and depending on what he chooses, the story will change, and different quests will become available while others become unavailable.

It's a pretty solid structure. Depending on the amount of branches this can get pretty complex, and if you have a lot of branches in your game it's going to be hard work as a dev to keep all the different outcomes in mind. A game with a lot of branches, especially if you can hop between them, can be a lot of work to produce, but will offer a lot of replay value to the player. A good example is Age of Decadence.

Any other "good examples" of this? Cause AoD is the only one that comes to mind, which tells me it's not a popular scheme, if we can only recall one RPG doing it or pulling it off successfully.

Way of the Samurai 4

 

[Reality]

You are the good guys and evil must be smited.

 

[Verylittlefishes]

I prefer intertwined goal/branching, like AoD (Torment is surprisingly linear if you think).

 

[SausageInYourFace]

You know what, at least fake choice allows an expression of self. I was never particularly bothered by RPGs who offered me like 6 different ways to answer something but they would all (or most) end up with the same (or slightly altered) response. Its still roleplaying a character/personality.

 

[Peachcurl]

Ideally, I'd like a goal based structure. It's just near impossible to combine with good story telling. I'd say it works best in sandbox games, where you pretty much end up writing your own story.

So, yeah, when I want to follow a story, give me some real, branching choices.

 

[barghwata]

Ideally, I'd like a goal based structure. It's just near impossible to combine with good story telling.

One word ...... Fallout.

 

[Peachcurl]

One word ...... Fallout.

Yes, I probably should have said after reading some of the posts here: I'd consider something like Fallout to be branching. Well-done branching, but still branching.

So we probably use different definitions of what we consider branching/goal-based.