Vapourware Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Remake from Saber Interactive

[Cryomancer]

"Not necessarily a remake, so much as a re-imagining." worries me...

If i can't do that i don't wanna play. Yes. Literally killed this amount of guys in a single Force Storm...

I was watching to a SWTOR video and looks like WoW. Felt more like i an working with a spreedsheet to use game mechanics that doesn't reflect anything about the game's universe in my favor INSTEAD of being immersed in my character's skin... A swtor video in spoiler. Not talking about mechanics that i already criticized a lot here but a teleport that only can be used at 16m is useless and makes no sense(14 min of the video bellow). If they maintain D20 instead of going to full "gear determining 100% of your char DNA instead of enhancing a little" and same rotation spam forever(wow style), will be a huge incline. But anyone expect that? Did BioWare made a single good recent RPG?

Spoiler

 

[Readher]

Turn based combat is boring in today's standards. I'd rather be able to control what I do rather than press a and watch my character do the cool things

Lets be honest anyone who has played kotor 1 or 2 recently will know that the combat is hella repetitive and tiring due to its real time pause nature. Not to the party members are always a tough component to handle in these games due to shitty AI. Dragon age origins and mass effect are good examples of this where you respectively had too much complexities in party ai/combat options or reduce player input so much that it ceases to have a point.

Sorry that I'd rather play the game than just watching my character do the stuff for me

I honestly kind of hope they use the Jedi Fallen Order combat for it. Just add in so you can do team commands and stuff like that and it could work.

This is your average """gamer""" nowadays. You just know that you can't have nice things from anywhere but indie Slav devs and any dream of a proper RPG with an AAA buget is just that, a dream.

 

[Nutria]

I didn't like the combat in KOTOR even back when it came out. There were just not a lot of meaningful decisions to make. Sometimes you had to use consumables I guess. That was about it. And I'm not bitching about it being RTwP, even Darklands had RTwP with slightly more interesting tactics about 8 years earlier. I love the game but don't pretend that it was some perfect jewel that couldn't be improved on.

 

[catfood]

The original was garbage anyway so who cares? (other than skyway)

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Turn based combat is boring in today's standards. I'd rather be able to control what I do rather than press a and watch my character do the cool things

Lets be honest anyone who has played kotor 1 or 2 recently will know that the combat is hella repetitive and tiring due to its real time pause nature. Not to the party members are always a tough component to handle in these games due to shitty AI. Dragon age origins and mass effect are good examples of this where you respectively had too much complexities in party ai/combat options or reduce player input so much that it ceases to have a point.

Sorry that I'd rather play the game than just watching my character do the stuff for me

I honestly kind of hope they use the Jedi Fallen Order combat for it. Just add in so you can do team commands and stuff like that and it could work.

This is your average """gamer""" nowadays. You just know that you can't have nice things from anywhere but indie Slav devs and any dream of a proper RPG with an AAA buget is just that, a dream.

kotor 1 and 2 have absolutely garbage combat, just like nwn

 

[Rivmusique]

Hard to make combat less interesting than kotor 1, I'm sure they'll pull it off though.

 

[Readher]

kotor 1 and 2 have absolutely garbage combat, just like nwn

That wasn't the point I was trying to make. Rather, it was about average player finding TB combat boring and wanting to change every series into action games.

 

[Modron]

If they cut down on the linearity and backtracking of the first 2 major areas in kotor more power to them, I get the urge to replay the first game because it's been so long but the memory of traversing those corridors spares me from actually doing it.

 

[Cryomancer]

kotor 1 and 2 have absolutely garbage combat, just like nwn

For a tactical point of view yes. For a immersion and a cool point of view, no way.

That wasn't the point I was trying to make. Rather, it was about average player finding TB combat boring and wanting to change every series into action games.

Yep. Real Time games ALWAYS sell more. I mean, compare ToEE with NWN....

 

[rusty_shackleford]

kotor 1 and 2 have absolutely garbage combat, just like nwn

That wasn't the point I was trying to make. Rather, it was about average player finding TB combat boring and wanting to change every series into action games.

kotor was never turn based to begin with though

 

[Modron]

Yep. Real Time games ALWAYS sell more. I mean, compare ToEE with NWN....

Sawyer said differently in the last few years about rts being a dead genre so real time rpgs don't have that built in audience anymore.
To backup his point compare sales of poe1/2 to dos 1/2.

Full action games over round based real time with pause is the vogue. In terms of popularity: Action > Turnbased > Round based Real Time infinity engine style combat right now.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Full action games over round based real time with pause is the vogue. In terms of popularity: Action > Turnbased > Round based Real Time infinity engine style combat right now.

For the last part, good. It was a giant mistake to begin with.

 

[Cryomancer]

To backup his point compare sales of poe1/2 to dos 1/2.

They are not similar games. But PoE 1 and DOS1 has a similar range of sales( 1 to 2 mi according to steamspy https://steamspy.com/app/230230 https://steamspy.com/app/291650 )

But lets look to Metacritic top USER score(i don't care about game journalists score)

https://www.metacritic.com/browse/games/genre/userscore/role-playing/pc?view=condensed

1. The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt - Real time
2. The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt - Blood and Wine - Real time
3. Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn - Real time with pause
4. Planescape: Torment - Real time with pause
5. The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt - Hearts of Stone - Real time
6. Fallout 2 - Turn based
7. Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic - Real time with pause
8. Gothic II - Real time
9. Diablo II: Lord of Destruction - Real Time
10. Final Fantasy XIV: Shadowbringers - Don't know
11. The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind - Real Time
12. To the Moon - Don't know
13. Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines - real time
14. Baldur's Gate - Real time with pause

Now look to Might & Magic franchise. Who are the most popular games? M&M VI to VIII. Exactly the games that can be played in real time(and turn based). D&D has more Turn Based adaptations(mostly on golden box) but the most popular(BG/IWD/NWN) are real time.

I love turn based BUT turn based has a problem. A trash encounter in a RtWP game is 15 seconds wasted. On a turn based game, can be minutes...

 

[rusty_shackleford]

To backup his point compare sales of poe1/2 to dos 1/2.

They are not similar games. But PoE 1 and DOS1 has a similar range of sales( 1 to 2 mi according to steamspy https://steamspy.com/app/230230 https://steamspy.com/app/291650 )

But lets look to Metacritic top USER score(i don't care about game journalists score)

https://www.metacritic.com/browse/games/genre/userscore/role-playing/pc?view=condensed

1. The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt - Real time
2. The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt - Blood and Wine - Real time
3. Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn - Real time with pause
4. Planescape: Torment - Real time with pause
5. The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt - Hearts of Stone - Real time
6. Fallout 2 - Turn based
7. Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic - Real time with pause
8. Gothic II - Real time
9. Diablo II: Lord of Destruction - Real Time
10. Final Fantasy XIV: Shadowbringers - Don't know
11. The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind - Real Time
12. To the Moon - Don't know
13. Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines - real time
14. Baldur's Gate - Real time with pause

Now look to Might & Magic franchise. Who are the most popular games? M&M VI to VIII. Exactly the games that can be played in real time(and turn based). D&D has more Turn Based adaptations(mostly on golden box) but the most popular(BG/IWD/NWN) are real time.

I love turn based BUT turn based has a problem. A trash encounter in a RtWP game is 15 seconds wasted. On a turn based game, can be minutes...

How well a game sold 20 years ago has absolutely zero bearing on how well a game will sell now.
How well a game sold 5 years ago barely matters.

 

[J_C]

To backup his point compare sales of poe1/2 to dos 1/2.

They are not similar games. But PoE 1 and DOS1 has a similar range of sales( 1 to 2 mi according to steamspy https://steamspy.com/app/230230 https://steamspy.com/app/291650 )

But lets look to Metacritic top USER score(i don't care about game journalists score)

https://www.metacritic.com/browse/games/genre/userscore/role-playing/pc?view=condensed

1. The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt - Real time
2. The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt - Blood and Wine - Real time
3. Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn - Real time with pause
4. Planescape: Torment - Real time with pause
5. The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt - Hearts of Stone - Real time
6. Fallout 2 - Turn based
7. Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic - Real time with pause
8. Gothic II - Real time
9. Diablo II: Lord of Destruction - Real Time
10. Final Fantasy XIV: Shadowbringers - Don't know
11. The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind - Real Time
12. To the Moon - Don't know
13. Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines - real time
14. Baldur's Gate - Real time with pause

Now look to Might & Magic franchise. Who are the most popular games? M&M VI to VIII. Exactly the games that can be played in real time(and turn based). D&D has more Turn Based adaptations(mostly on golden box) but the most popular(BG/IWD/NWN) are real time.

I love turn based BUT turn based has a problem. A trash encounter in a RtWP game is 15 seconds wasted. On a turn based game, can be minutes...

What is To The Moon doing on that list? It's not an RPG at all.

 

[Cryomancer]

How well a game sold 20 years ago has absolutely zero bearing on how well a game will sell now.
How well a game sold 5 years ago barely matters.

Not true. The market din't changed much but since you are talking about modern games, ALL, i repeat ALL RPG's on top steam sellers are real time ( https://steamcharts.com/top )

What is To The Moon doing on that list? It's not an RPG at all.

I don't know, maybe for game journalists is...

 

[RNGsus]

I wonder what the twist will be this time.

 

[Silly Germans]

Kotor I/II had great melee combat animations. It looked as if they were fighting instead of simply making a swing every 6 seconds.
I think no other Rtwp game comes close to them unless i missed something.
Id really like a revival of proper animations in Rtwp, they add a lot to the feeling of combat.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Kotor I/II had great melee combat animations. It looked as if they were fighting instead of simply making a swing every 6 seconds.
I think no other Rtwp game comes close to them unless i missed something.
Id really like a revival of proper animations in Rtwp, they add a lot to the feeling of combat.

have you played nwn?

 

[Silly Germans]

Kotor I/II had great melee combat animations. It looked as if they were fighting instead of simply making a swing every 6 seconds.
I think no other Rtwp game comes close to them unless i missed something.
Id really like a revival of proper animations in Rtwp, they add a lot to the feeling of combat.

have you played nwn?

Yes, i remember NWN 2 having decent animations but not up to par with Kotor. I guess the larger amount of
weapon types and possible pairings would have meant to much work.

 

[Mark Richard]

Kotor I/II had great melee combat animations. It looked as if they were fighting instead of simply making a swing every 6 seconds.
I think no other Rtwp game comes close to them unless i missed something.
Id really like a revival of proper animations in Rtwp, they add a lot to the feeling of combat.

have you played nwn?

Yes, i remember NWN 2 having decent animations but not up to par with Kotor. I guess the larger amount of
weapon types and possible pairings would have meant to much work.

He's probably referring to the first NWN. Combat rounds were obscured behind interlocking animations, giving the real-time turns a certain visual fluidity as combatants blocked, deflected, or ducked their way to victory. They would also move, either stepping forwards, backwards, or to their side. Problem was this got a bit excessive in the early game. They'd end up fannying about playing ring a ring o' roses with up to two movements per one attack.

Not to be discouraged, Bioware made some tweaks for Kotor. They dropped the ballroom dancing and heavily focused on striking animations where two melee weapons often made contact, which was the right call for a lightsaber spectacle. Dragon Age: Origins had parries and blocks to a lesser degree, but by Dragon Age 2 the combat was so fast that the whole concept got scrapped. A staple (kind of?) of their games for nearly a decade, dropped, just like that. I still wonder what Bioware's interlocking animations would look like today if their development had continued. Maybe bring back the dancing and pair it with a spacial awareness mechanic, producing animations that utilized the enviroment. Or go the Total War route and hire stuntmen to choreograph some really gratuitous but fun clashes.

 

[Open Path]

Not true. The market din't changed much but since you are talking about modern games, ALL, i repeat ALL RPG's on top steam sellers are real time ( https://steamcharts.com/top )

Now look to Might & Magic franchise. Who are the most popular games? M&M VI to VIII. Exactly the games that can be played in real time(and turn based). D&D has more Turn Based adaptations(mostly on golden box) but the most popular(BG/IWD/NWN) are real time.

Firstly, I don't understand why you are mixing real time with RTwP. RT combat games are obviously more popular, but I doubt that RTwP games sold better or are more played in the last years than TB crpgs, that was what Mordron suggested. Steam charts and steam spy links that you provided demonstrates how RT > TB > RTwP in regard popularity.

D:OS II is the first crpg with non RT combat in sales and popularity way over any RTwP. D:OS 1 counting enhanced edition sold double than PoE I and according to your link that EE it's played right now by more people than PoE I, also DOS: 2 sold much more and it's played by 10 times more people than PoE II. The best TB recent crpgs are less popular than DO:S, but still they are more played than other RTwP mostly comparing one by one next positions but also because in the last 10 years the list of RTwP games is really short - and the most popular right now are Kenshi or Pathfinder, not PoE-, while there are several dozens of games with TB combat that sold and have been played much, much more than RTwP.

On the other hand Video games market changed TOTALLY since late 90s. The change is deeper than mid 80s case, because not only supposed a continuous growth and the rise of new plattforms, but also the absolute shift in paradigm, the definitive popularization and casualization of videogames what changed tastes and dominant styles greatly.

Obviously the huge market growth + the fact that TB was in decadence during 2000s, so new players have few TB references, makes absurd to compare individually, Pool of Radiance, M&M II or Wizardry VI sales and recent popularity vs Baldur's Gate 2, Kotor or Nerwinter Night 2. However as RTwP is only a tiny minority and an exception among vast majority of crpgs ever developed -TB or RT-, I think classic turn-based crpgs -all pre-2005- are MORE popular right now than classic RTwP collectively, for the simple reason that we are comparing several hundreds games and almost all popular crpgs until mid 90s with 10-12 games that were only the second most popular during first 2000s after RT ones -Morrowind, Deus Ex, Vampire, Gothics, etc- and extremely minoritary since mid 2000s.

I think no other Rtwp game comes close to them unless i missed something.

Kenshi animations are better, not refined but much more diverse, natural and fluid. The actually relevant parts of combat: challenge, diverse enemy approachs, party attacks, cure, positioning, landscape tactic relevance or movement management are better in Kenshi than in any other RTwP combat also.

 

[Cryomancer]

D:OS II is the first crpg with non RT combat in sales and popularity way over any RTwP. D:OS 1 counting enhanced edition sold double than PoE I and according to your link that EE it's played right now by more people than PoE I, also DOS: 2 sold much more and it's played by 10 times more people than PoE II. The best TB recent crpgs are less popular than DO:S, but still they are more played than other RTwP mostly comparing one by one next positions but also because in the last 10 years the list of RTwP games is really short - and the most popular right now are Kenshi or Pathfinder, not PoE-, while there are several dozens of games with TB combat that sold and have been played much, much more than RTwP.

RtWP and RT aren't that different.

In fact, if you play NWN on multiplayer, you can't "pause". In other hands, some mount & blade mods allow you to pause to command your "divisions". The difference between real time and real time with pause is very small.

Also, the comparation of dos2 with poe2 to proof that turn based sells more makes no sense because :

• One is a colonial/pirate themed game, another is a european fantasy
• There is a option to play PoE2 in turn based.
• Both games are much more different mechanic wise, there are no cooldowns on PoE2, the itemization makes way more sense and is less mmoish, and randomness impacts much more the combat on PoE 2 over DOS2.

So pick similar games with RT/RtWP and compare with TB games.

 

[Open Path]

RtWP and RT aren't that different.

In fact, if you play NWN on multiplayer, you can't "pause". In other hands, some mount & blade mods allow you to pause to command your "divisions". The difference between real time and real time with pause is very small.

RTwP games are designed around the suposed tactical pauses, wich in most cases don't bring any tactics and decrease difficulty greatly. The first RTwP game challenging and with actual tactics I ever played is Kenshi -thanks that developer was more a fan of Xcom than Baldur's Gate-.

Mount & Blade is a very good example of how party tactics in a real time game can be implemented. I don't played that "pause" mod for Mount & Blade but seems not only unnecesary but greatly overpowering. It's some sort of easy-cheat mode.

 

[Open Path]

Also, the comparation of dos2 with poe2 to proof that turn based sells more makes no sense because :

• One is a colonial/pirate themed game, another is a european fantasy
• There is a option to play PoE2 in turn based.
• Both games are much more different mechanic wise, there are no cooldowns on PoE2, the itemization makes way more sense and is less mmoish, and randomness impacts much more the combat on PoE 2 over DOS2.

-The thematic focus of each game -that you described in a weirdly inaccurate way- doesn't matter. We are talking about what games are more popular RTwP or TB.

- That turn based mode don't makes Deadfire a primary turn-based game. Encounters, combat options, enemy AI are exactly the same, so turn-based mode is only a slower and probably easier Pillars. Also, most players play in RTwP anyway.

- Both games are different in many ways, but I was not comparing both games quality or their combats but their popularity in much more general context that Modron included: Turn based crpgs sell more and are more popular than RTwP.

So pick similar games with RT/RtWP and compare with TB games.

I did. The second TB game is still more popular that second RTwP one and then, after Kenshi and Pathfinder there is no other RTwP game until Deadfire, while there are several TB games before.