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Can you have an RPG without progression?

Self-Ejected

RNGsus

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If you never clicked the little jewel in their portrait to level up, never rested, never changed your starting equipment, you would still be playing an rpg, but the op would call that a self-imposed challenge. However, if a game was designed without any of this, it would be called a very shitty action game. Not even an rpg.
 

anvi

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I am sure there is some RPG somewhere which doesn't have progression and is still decent. I know there are a lot that don't have levels, like Ultima where you just improve skills instead, TSW has no levels you just get better gear and unlock abilities. But even games with levels, some of them don't have much progression. FFT is not the best example but still, battles at the start of the game are not a whole lot different to battles at the end. You do unlock some stuff along the way and can buy some gear, but if enemy HP increases as your damage output increases, then progression is basically meaningless. In other words, if a game is focused mostly on finely tuned battles (or a story etc), then progression isn't even important. But it is nice to have the carrot and stick.
 

Grampy_Bone

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There are no examples, but it's theoretically possible.

This reminds me of the RPG without combat debate. I mean, if every example has progression, then it serves to reason that no progression = not an RPG.

It's the same when people torture themselves to come up with a definition of RPG that doesn't involve combat. All the games in the genre have combat, ergo, RPGs are combat games. I don't know why this rustles the jimmies of so many monocles.

(If Disco Furries spawns a lot of imitators and eventually subsumes the genre, then the definition will change. But right now one game does not a genre make).
 

Valky

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Progression linked to character building is but one of the components that is essential for a game to be considered an RPG, therefore the answer to OP is no.
To the above, no, definitions do not change just because of subversion, that's the creed of marxists. Something claiming to be a video game claiming to be an RPG where the only form of conflict resolution is dialogue choices, is not a game or an RPG, it is a CYOA book.
 

Tigranes

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I could post here, but I have a feeling it would be the exact same post I made in this exact same topic a couple of years ago
 

Farewell young Prince into the night

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I could post here, but I have a feeling it would be the exact same post I made in this exact same topic a couple of years ago

As someone with late stage dementia I would love to hear your thoughts again.
 

octavius

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core of rpgs is char planning. If its constant then its char creation, not planning. Hence importance of fine tuned improvements to character as story progresses.

Would you say this makes Wizardry IV not an RPG, as you don't create your character and can't really "plan" how Werdna develops?

Wiz 4 is a unique game and partly an Adventure game IMO.
Also your progress is measured in what monsters you can summon instead of your stats.
 

Saduj

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An RPG where your characters don't get stronger, whether by their own skills or by the acquisition of equipment... would it still be an RPG? Do you have any examples of the sort?

Note: self-imposed challenges don't count, as a racing game remains a racing game even if the player decides to drive the opposite way; if anything, one can say that the player is not actually racing.

I've read more than one post here where forum members have said it would be cool if there was an RPG where the character gets weaker as the game progresses.
 

Farewell young Prince into the night

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I've read more than one post here where forum members have said it would be cool if there was an RPG where the character gets weaker as the game progresses.

Pretty sure that is the case in GOAT Darklands.
 

Metronome

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Maybe. It's hard to think of a good example, but I might have one.

Some FPS games have customizable loadouts with progression via experience points. This is definitely an RPG system. Some people think that progression gives an unfair advantage to senior players though. Removing the progression would arguably make the game more enjoyable.

So there is an example of an existing RPG that could be made better by removing progression. Although it may not be an RPG anymore after the change according to some people. This kind of thing probably works best with competitive games.
 

moraes

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Yes. Just imagine an adventure with only mundane equipment and not enough experience to reach the next level. In fact, this is pretty common in P&P games, where the DM can decide that the characters don't level or reequip themselves during the adventure and doles experience points only during interludes.
 

King Crispy

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Just imagine an adventure with only mundane equipment and not enough experience to reach the next level.

Ah, but the game in your example would be based on PnP rules that do of course allow leveling and would if the adventure in question awarded enough experience points to do so. So invalid example.
 

ItsChon

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Ah, but the game in your example would be based on PnP rules that do of course allow leveling and would if the adventure in question awarded enough experience points to do so. So invalid example.
What if the amount of experience that would be required to level would be so high that you could go through a whole game's worth of adventure content without leveling? He's right.
 

Metronome

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Ah, but the game in your example would be based on PnP rules that do of course allow leveling and would if the adventure in question awarded enough experience points to do so. So invalid example.
Theoretically, if a game could be beaten in a short enough amount of time, it might not need progression to keep you interested until the end. You could just have detailed character creation and your test is getting this particular character through a set of obstacles. The game would not have progression planned out for later and you would have the same experience as a short RPG session.

I don't think it has ever been done because if you have the resources to do detailed character creation, you probably have the resources to do progression. But if you were somehow limited with regards to progression, you could "make do" with an "RPG" that works like this.
 

octavius

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Ah, but the game in your example would be based on PnP rules that do of course allow leveling and would if the adventure in question awarded enough experience points to do so. So invalid example.
What if the amount of experience that would be required to level would be so high that you could go through a whole game's worth of adventure content without leveling? He's right.

What if your characters just hung around doing nothing?
 

ProphetSword

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I once created a module for Unlimited Adventures where characters started at level 40 (the highest level possible) with the best equipment available. Technically, even with those restrictions, the game was still an RPG. There's no requirement that the character(s) need to start at the lowest level, and there's no requirement that they need to be better than they are.

In addition, one could create a game in either Unlimited Adventures or Neverwinter Nights where no experience is given or leveling up is blocked (no training halls or scripts to stop a level up from happening). The character(s) would never improve in skill. Again, this doesn't mean they are the lowest level (they could be level 15, for all we know). This would still be an RPG, due to having some of the other trappings common in RPGs (generating characters, equipping items, combat, etc). It would simply be an RPG without character progression.

An RPG without character progression could exist. One would assume the enemies wouldn't grow in power either, though, so at least that treadmill would stop.
 

ItsChon

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Ah, but the game in your example would be based on PnP rules that do of course allow leveling and would if the adventure in question awarded enough experience points to do so. So invalid example.
What if the amount of experience that would be required to level would be so high that you could go through a whole game's worth of adventure content without leveling? He's right.

What if your characters just hung around doing nothing?
I'm not sure what your trying to say. Crispy's counter to Moraes's claim is that a game that didn't allow leveling would not be the same as a PnP adventure where enough experience wasn't gained to level, because a mechanism for leveling didn't exist in the first place. I countered by saying what if a there was a leveling mechanism in the game, but it'd be impossible to gain enough experience to level up even once. My point is that leveling up does not HAVE to be apart of a video game for it to be considered an RPG, because character progression can be defined in many different ways.
 

Butter

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I'm not sure why you'd want to make an RPG without progression. The reason you get to put escalating challenges in front of the player is because there's some form of progression.
 

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