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Can you have an RPG without progression?

deuxhero

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The title and the OP ask two different questions.
Title question: No. At least not as a final release.
OP's question: Yes, but it would have to have progression in some other way like getting a bigger army (which does avoid having individual soldiers getting more powerful) or becoming more versatile (you only asked about "stronger").
 

Modron

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An RPG where your characters don't get stronger, whether by their own skills or by the acquisition of equipment... would it still be an RPG? Do you have any examples of the sort?

Note: self-imposed challenges don't count, as a racing game remains a racing game even if the player decides to drive the opposite way; if anything, one can say that the player is not actually racing.
You just described doom.
 

ItsChon

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Why have a leveling mechanism if you can't level up (in full games, not special modules)?
The point isn't why. Obviously this would be a decidedly inferior way to do things. That isn't the question though. The question is whether or not a game without character progression, I.E in the form of leveling up, could be considered an RPG. The answer to this question is yes.
Let's say as the game goes on your character is able to have different dialogue options as a result of what they've seen. Perhaps they've been injured throughout their adventures and this has effected their fighting style. That's two ways off the top that aren't related to equipment or leveling up. Obviously, again, it's not nearly as comprehensive and/or sensible as a leveling up system would be, but that's not the subject of this thread. It's whether or not a game without character progression in the form of leveling up could be considered an RPG.
 

Nifft Batuff

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The implementation of some kind of delusional progression is so pervasive in modern skinner box games, no only RPGs, that I don't know if it could still be used as a defining characteristic of the RPG genre.
The only genres the could have no in-game progression that come to my mind are some adventure and puzzle games (in these games, the only progression is the actual experience and know-how acquired by the player)
 

Wunderbar

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An RPG where your characters don't get stronger, whether by their own skills or by the acquisition of equipment... would it still be an RPG? Do you have any examples of the sort?

Note: self-imposed challenges don't count, as a racing game remains a racing game even if the player decides to drive the opposite way; if anything, one can say that the player is not actually racing.
You just described doom.
doom features an acquisition of new equipment.
 

Wunderbar

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Let's say as the game goes on your character is able to have different dialogue options as a result of what they've seen. Perhaps they've been injured throughout their adventures and this has effected their fighting style. That's two ways off the top that aren't related to equipment or leveling up.
progression can be divided into two cathegories:
1) you accumulate some abstract currency (XP) and exchange it for power-ups of your liking (level up)
2) you find something in the game world (equipment, or maybe certain specific experiences) which gives you a specific power-up.
In the end, both of your propositions are close to 2 (you gain something in the game world that changes the way you play the game). I mean, what's the difference between inventory and journal? Both inventory and journal are pools for your player to fill with certain things you find in the game world.
 

ItsChon

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Let's say as the game goes on your character is able to have different dialogue options as a result of what they've seen. Perhaps they've been injured throughout their adventures and this has effected their fighting style. That's two ways off the top that aren't related to equipment or leveling up.
progression can be divided into two cathegories:
1) you accumulate some abstract currency (XP) and exchange it for power-ups of your liking (level up)
2) you find something in the game world (equipment, or maybe certain specific experiences) which gives you a specific power-up.
In the end, both of your propositions are close to 2 (you gain something in the game world that changes the way you play the game). I mean, what's the difference between inventory and journal? Both inventory and journal are pools for your player to fill with certain things you find in the game world.
Fair enough. I narrowed in onto the discussion Moraes and Crispy were having, while the thread is targeted towards development/progress of any type. If we were to include any kind of character progression period, I would say that a game without character development of any kind wouldn't really be an RPG. It would be an action-adventure game.
 

laclongquan

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An RPG where your characters don't get stronger, whether by their own skills or by the acquisition of equipment... would it still be an RPG? Do you have any examples of the sort?

Note: self-imposed challenges don't count, as a racing game remains a racing game even if the player decides to drive the opposite way; if anything, one can say that the player is not actually racing.
Strangely enough, if you twist the requirement a little bit, there's actually a game fit your bill: Chrono Cross.

The game start with prologue where you play with randomly chosen companions, spells, and items (to reflect time loop). So you start with a fairly good idea of what middling to high level abilities and items look like.

Then you start the game with lvel1 baseline. Advance the game. There was quite a few C&C that can branch your game.

You end the game with base ending. Now you enter time loop where you can start New Game +

You play NG+ with end-game equipment and abilities, for different endings and different companions. This motivation is pretty great because Kid ending is pretty great, but original girlfriend (or threesome) ending is pretty great as well. 10+ endings I think.

In NG+ you can advance your equipments ONLY if you grind. No Grind? No Rainbow.
 

ValeVelKal

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An RPG where your characters don't get stronger, whether by their own skills or by the acquisition of equipment... would it still be an RPG? Do you have any examples of the sort?

Note: self-imposed challenges don't count, as a racing game remains a racing game even if the player decides to drive the opposite way; if anything, one can say that the player is not actually racing.
Eastshade, except if you consider consumables or new tools like a bicycle “equipment”.



A game where you create a character with stats, skills, feats etc but never level him/her up would still be an RPG.

This is hard to argue with, but I wish you'd provide an example or two.

There are no examples, but it's theoretically possible.

Loriciel’s very old Sapiens, where you create the stats of your character at the very beginning, get all the equipment available in the first 2 minutes of the game - and good luck from there. The progression is in large part “reputation” with the various factions and the player knowing animals and tribes location and day/night lifecycle (it was I think the first game to have the sun cycle in the horizon, and not just palette roll day/night).
 
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FeelTheRads

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I'm not sure why you'd want to make an RPG without progression.

Cuz it's different bro! It's speshul! RPG without combat! RPG without progression! RPG with reversed progression! RPG with no numbers! The possibilities are endless if you just use your imagination!!!!! And don't you dare say they're not RPGs. It's current year! Anything is an RPG!

And because you don't really like RPGs but CYOAs and for some reason want to call them RPGs.

And also because then you can scream about how if you take away everything from something that something is still what is was. Because.
 

JarlFrank

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Just imagine an adventure with only mundane equipment and not enough experience to reach the next level.

Ah, but the game in your example would be based on PnP rules that do of course allow leveling and would if the adventure in question awarded enough experience points to do so. So invalid example.

It's not an invalid example. The game itself would play at a single level, and you'd never level up, but it would still be an RPG in its ruleset, allow character creation, have stats and skills, dice-based combat, skill checks in dialogues, etc etc etc.

Just because you don't level up doesn't make the game not an RPG.

You could just as well imagine an RPG with an intricate custom ruleset not based on a pen and paper system, where you only have one level. But other than leveling up, it has all the features of a full fledged RPG.

That game would be an RPG.
 

anvi

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Does that shitty new storyfag RPG have progression? Looked more like an Adventure Game to me.
 

Silverfish

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No, a game without character progression isn't an RPG in the same way that choose your own adventure novels aren't D&D.
 

Sigourn

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By progression do you mean just level up or equipment counts as well? Cause is Deus Ex considered an RPG?

I knew I would have to define progression sooner or later. For the sake of this thread, the following mechanics count as progression:
  • Your character grows stronger by "leveling up", whether it be because you can allocate stat points/feats/skills following a level up, or because the game automatically raises your stats (whether it be stat points, feats, skills, hit points, "MP", or basic stats such as Strength and Defense), or because you in fact "level up" by gaining experience points. There's also the classic "get stronger by using your skills" seen in the Elder Scrolls games as well as the SaGa franchise.
  • Your character grows stronger by obtaining equipment in a non-fixed way, i.e. killling enemies and finding equipment, farming enemies for gold and buying equipment, basically anything that doesn't require the player to find X equipment in a fixed spot (such as finding weapons in Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain or The Legend of Zelda).
In my opinion, if you have a game where the only thing that gets stronger is the player (i.e. "gets good") then you are not playing an RPG, but something else. If Fallout didn't let you progress your character or create your own, you would essentially be playing some sort of pure strategy game where the meat of the game is making the most of each situation with the resources you have. It dramatically changes what the game plays like, because the leveling up system in Fallout and the acquisition of equipment easily lets the player bypass these scenarios.
 

Egosphere

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Yes.

Just like JarlFrank has said, if you have a game where you allocate your stats and skill points which are then set for the rest of the game, you will still have an rpg. Whether that can work or not is debatable. Personally, I think if you had a very good combat system that was more akin to a squad tactics game, and you simply got access to new weapons and gadgets throughout the game, it could work.
 

ProphetSword

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I’m going to use Unlimited Adventures again in my examples; because it fits the bill of being an RPG.

Questions:
If I create a short adventure in UA where the characters don’t gain enough XP to reach the next level before the game ends, is it an RPG? If not, why not?

If I create an adventure in UA where the characters start at max level and cannot level, is it an RPG? If not, why not?

If I create an adventure in UA where the characters never find a training hall, is it an RPG? If not, why not?
 

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