Warcraft III: Reforged - now with lowest user metacritic score of all time

[Average Manatee]

0.5 on metacritic.

After Starcraft: Remastered I didn't expect Activision-Blizzard to fail at remastering Warcraft 3. How a rich company can do that - and fuck it up so meticulously - is beyond me.

Like I said before, I suspected they wouldn't have been able to manage because WC3 has quite a lot of different models and assets that need to be changed, while contemporary AAA 3D graphics is the thing which takes the most time in game development. I doubt WC3 is a game which can be made as an AAA company today. How long did they work on this remaster? 3 years? And it's not done, they probably needed another 6 months, or even a year, to bring it up to snuff only on the graphics front, let alone remake all the in-game cutscenes. They could've probably made a new game (like WC4) in that time that will sell better. SC: Remaster and this can't be compared at all, it's much easier and faster to make 2D sprites. Whoever decided to remaster WC3 because of the SC remaster didn't know how games are made probably. If I were them, I'd have remastered WC1 or 2. More like 1 because 2 suffers from the naval combat too much.

That's crap, modern games with open worlds and shit have absurdly more art assests than WC3. On top of that you have a guide (the original work) on what the result should look like so there should be a lot less wasted time re-designing things till they look just right or whenever someone decides that they want a different unit in a faction.

The real reason is that Blizzard never wanted to give the game an AAA budget to begin with, not even an AA budget. The outsourced it to some no-name studio that was probably competent enough at redoing Starcraft because they were mobile devs or something and experienced in 2D art but wholly incapable of doing even decent 3D let alone highly stylized 3D like WC3 had.

Naval combat made land-sea maps more interesting than pure land-locked scenarios.

It added tedious building of transport ships and nothing else basically. It needlessly slows down the game, there's a reason they removed it in WC3 (it's still technically there, but outside of a few instances in the campaigns only like 1 pvp map nobody plays on uses it and the AI gets borked there). I've talked to a lot of people about this and they all basically agree the naval combat is not only extraneous, but actively detrimental.

The biggest problem in WC2 was that both navies were completely identical and had very little depth. EVERY GOD DAMNED MAP past a certain point forced you to build battleship to get across water at some point. Everyone only built battleships because destroyers sucked and subs sucked as soon as you detected them. Finally battleships were so powerful compared to land forces that they basically annihilated half the enemy bases just shooting from the water. At the same time naval did make expanding and defending those expansions a bit more interesting since you could be attacked in a lot more places rather than fortifying one single place. Its just that when you amassed 9 battleships you kind of annihilated everything.

In general I don't really see WC1/2 and Diablo 1 as being popular enough for Blizzard to care remastering.

 

[Harthwain]

It added tedious building of transport ships and nothing else basically. It needlessly slows down the game, there's a reason they removed it in WC3 (it's still technically there, but outside of a few instances in the campaigns only like 1 pvp map nobody plays on uses it). I've talked to a lot of people about this and they all basically agree the naval combat is not only extraneous, but actively detrimental.

I wouldn't be surprised if the main reason for not implementing naval combat in W3 was because otherwise they'd have to do a lot more units and maps just to make them useful.

In Starcraft you sort of do the same thing as you did in W2, but since air units can fly around any obstacle they aren't as limited in their use as are naval units, which are restricted to the body of water they were created in. Also, Starcraft had a lot more mechanics that made game more complex over W2. If anything I think it was Starcraft that inspired them to replace naval combat with air combat. That and the introduction hero units.

But I disagree with your assessment of naval combat in general. It introduces an extra layer of strategy, just like air combat does. It also prevents rushing your enemies with a few units (which was very popular strategy in W3), since you have to build the infrastructure needed to get your troops across the water and clear the coast from potential defenses that can sink your transports or kill your troops. And nothing stops you from having both - maps that are played exclusively on land as well as on land-and-sea. However, for that you need maps to support said playstyle and they should be good to begin with...

The biggest problem in WC2 was that both navies were completely identical and had very little depth.

It was problem of the game as a whole though. I think only spells were different between factions. They even tried getting away with making Starcraft into a reskinned W2, but the outrage made them completely redesign the whole game and create factions that were truly unique.

 

[Lacrymas]

That's crap, modern games with open worlds and shit have absurdly more art assests than WC3.

Maybe, but open world games aren't RTSes you have to sell to a contemporary audience, and they still have a ridiculously long dev cycle. It's obvious they couldn't finish Refunded in time, and that's with an Asian studio which more than likely overworked their employees (perhaps sent a few to a hospital, lol), so maybe you are also underestimating the sheer number of assets and animations.

It also prevents rushing your enemies with a few units (which was very popular strategy in W3), since you have to build the infrastructure needed to get your troops across the water and clear the coast from potential defenses that can sink your transports or kill your troops

I.e. needlessly slowing down the game.

The WC2 campaign is quite a grind due to this and the overall same-y-ness of objectives.

 

[DraQ]

Mario 64? What are you, some kind of Zoomer?

The game was released during the age of early 3D.

2002 is not fucking early 3D. It's when 3D graphics was already transiting to fully mature.

Besides when warcrap 3 was released all the Myths were already out, for example. Sometimes no excuse is just no excuse.
WC3's/WOW's style has always been 3D graphics equivalent of calarts.

Kotick should just fire everyone and rehire oldfags. Make Blizzard small again.

That's not how you corpo.

The biggest problem in WC2 was that both navies were completely identical and had very little depth.

Navies do need depth, yes.

 

[Suicidal]

 

[Black]

People won't forget this.

Blizztards forgot all about the fartstone fiasco when blizzard dangled ovenwatch 2 in front of them.

 

[MWaser]

Reddit when they think ruining the metacritic score of blizzard for some duration is going to change Blizzard's future business practices

Spoiler

 

[Lyric Suite]

I love the Risitas meme format.

I like how the original story he is telling is actually funnier than all of the memes.

The story of the cement stack is almost as good:

 

[Average Manatee]

The biggest problem in WC2 was that both navies were completely identical and had very little depth.

It was problem of the game as a whole though. I think only spells were different between factions. They even tried getting away with making Starcraft into a reskinned W2, but the outrage made them completely redesign the whole game and create factions that were truly unique.

Spells and a few upgrades. Thing is the spells were radically different, Bloodlust meant Orcs dominated in 1v1 combat (Holy Light was basically impossible to use to heal in combat due to APM constraints) but Humans had the best utility with hit and run attacks that use Invisibility vs. the Orc Death Knight who humans could just delete from the game with Exorcism. So there's an interesting meta there but basically nothing interesting on the sea (I think Humans could still invis transports which may have just been OP in 1v1 play).

Its a very fixed meta kind of game but at least the land game is interesting. Obviously SC is better but WC2 land is way more interesting than WC2 sea.

 

[Farewell into the night]

This is gold! hahaha

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

IN BLIZZARD TOWER

Spoiler

Master Brack on phone: "That's good, that's good. Maybe give Widowmaker a penis or McCree a Brokeback Mountain costume to really add more depth to them."

Subordinate: "Mr. Brack, Mr. Brack!"

Brack: "Hold on, some damn wiener kid from down the hall is asking for me. Call you back." turns in his DRX RACER #PRO PLAYER CHAIR "What... this better be good."

Subordinate: "There's a massive outcry on Warcraft 3 Reforged. YouTube hysteria 'content' creators are up in arms!"

Brack: "Warcraft...3...?"

Subordinate: "Yes! Reforged! There's a whole-"

Brack: "Clark. Your name is Clark right? Listen, Clark... I know about this. This... Warcraft 3."

Clark: "What are we going to do?"

Brack: "Heh..." rises from his chair, looking out the window at the dystopian hellscape that is California 2020 "Nothing."

Clark: "Nothing?"

Brack: "Yes, Clark... nothing. Do you have something to say about that?"

Clark: "But... but why? Won't this tank our public reputation? Shake our faith with the playerbase? I mean, already there are refunds coming in and-"

Brack: "Clark, shh... you talk too much for a heterosexual male. You seem to forget we are Blizzard. Do you know our playerbase? Do you know how uniformly stupid they all are?"

Clark: "You mean..."

Brack: "Diablo 3. We sold them a lemon. We took zero criticism, zero feedback, we listened to no one for over four years. People bought it. Warlords of Draenor, we didn't even know why we were making that expansion but it still sold. Why, we sold these morons a retail priced game with lootbox microtransaction freemium models in it."

Clark: "But... the ethics!"

Brack: turns around and chuckles "Ethics, ethics, ethics... such a dirty word, that ethics. We did what we did to Warcraft 3 to send a message, not to the fans but to all our former employees. Don't fuck with me, Clark. That is the message. You mess with the B-man and I will desecrate, violate, and eradicate your legacy. There won't be a Reign of Chaos or Lord of Destruction or Burning Crusade... there will be what I want."

Clark: "...Sir..."

Brack: "You look mortified, Clark. Let me explain: for the better part of ten years I have had to put up with people asking where the 'OLD' Blizzard has gone. The ones that made 'BROOD WAR' and Vanilla WoW. Ten years, every day, every minute, a nostalgia fag would bitch and moan. At first we tried to please them, hoping they would simply go away... then we became hostile... and finally, we realized no matter what we did it was never good enough for them. So I brought it up in a meeting: what if we were to modify those memories so that in time the only thing people would remember is the work we did... the work I did. Sure, you would have those that remember clearly the true past but they will die off soon to kidney failure and diabetic shock. All we need to do now is take what people thought they knew and reshape it... remake it..."

A crack of lightning cuts through the dark sky and illuminates the room brightly for a fleeting second.

Brack: "Reforge it." smirks

Clark: stands there stunned, unsure of what to say and shifting about uncomfortably.

Brack: "We will simply weather the storm right now. The Youtubers have no real influence the moment we cut off sponsors, the streamers will do whatever we tell them to or else their channel may come under a curious case of the flagged bug, and the normies... the people like you... well, you're all just collateral."

Brack stops for a moment to consider something.

Brack: "And if it escalates further, we'll just release a Diablo IV cinematic and D.Va in a bikini skin. Hah, hell, I'll even straighten my hair and issue another 'apology' if need be."

Clark: swallows hard "Okay... I get it... I will tell everyone else to not worry and to continue as usual."

Brack: "There's a good boy... oh, and Clark, before you go? Do me a favor?"

Clark: "Yes?"

Brack: grins wickedly "Go into the basement and bring me the source code for The Lost Vikings."

Clark: turns as pale as a ghost but sheepishly nods

Brack: speaking to himself "Yes... soon all the world will remember Blizzard as Brack intended. Nobody is bigger than the business. I am the business."

He helps himself to a sip from a glass of wine sitting on his table.

Brack: "And if they don't agree, they can make another DOTA 2 for all I care."

 

[Absinthe]

Reddit when they think ruining the metacritic score of blizzard for some duration is going to change Blizzard's future business practices

The abysmal user metascore discourages professional reviewer scores from giving high praise though, since they don't want to look horribly out of touch, even if they honestly are. And since a lot of videogame companies love tying performance rewards to metacritic reviewer scores, it's safe to say that it does actually inflict a dent. Most reviewers these days don't have actual standards and will either regurgitate PR buzz or regurgitate popular opinion with their prettier words, so they will probably rate WC3 reforged around 20 points lower than they would have otherwise. Someone who would have otherwise given a 90 will give a 70. Someone who would've given a 70 will give a 50. And so on. That kind of shit.

It's easy to say that user metascores don't affect company profits and that they don't give a shit about them, but the effect they have on professional review scores certainly does. And that's aside from the fact that terrible userscores do lower sales from metacritic users.

 

[a Goat]

Going to go out on a limb and guess that like most companies that deteriorate, it's filled with management that was hired because they were friends/family of talent rather than actual talent.

In case of videogames I think it has more to do with the responsible corporate adults taking over the management from nerds. For them it becomes a "product" and they don't really comprehend what makes it good.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Going to go out on a limb and guess that like most companies that deteriorate, it's filled with management that was hired because they were friends/family of talent rather than actual talent.

In case of videogames I think it has more to do with the responsible corporate adults taking over the management from nerds. For them it becomes a "product" and they don't really comprehend what makes it good.

There's a good chance it's actually the opposite problem happening

 

[Lyric Suite]

Why not both?

 

[catfood]

I don't think Zappa's argument applies to gaming. I mean it could to a certain extent, but remember that games in the past were made by nerds with a passion for computers and D&D, sci-fi or fantasy in general. So in essence they did know what the customers wanted because they had similar interests to their own. Today the people in charge have neither, whether they be suits or hipsters.

 

[Reinhardt]

I don't think Zappa's argument applies to gaming. I mean it could to a certain extent, but remember that games in the past were made by nerds with a passion for computers and D&D, sci-fi or fantasy in general. So in essence they did know what the customers wanted because they had similar interests to their own. Today the people in charge have neither, whether they be suits or hipsters.

Today they actually hate games.

 

[Lyric Suite]

but remember that games in the past were made by nerds with a passion for computers and D&D, sci-fi or fantasy in general.

Yeah but that was the past. Back in Zappa's days music was made by people who had a passion for it and the guys with the cigars just let their stuff fly because they had no idea what any of it was about, they just let it rip until one of those bands made it big. In some cases, the producers actually DID know a thing or two about music. The guy who produced The Beatles was a classical trained pianist who actually took the time to improve any technical deficiency the band had.

Come the 80s though and now the record industry was filled with clueless retards who thought they knew everything.

It's the same with games now. The 80s and 90s were for us what the 60s and 70s were in Zappa's analogy, and now the industry is filled with pretentious hipster retards instead of the nerds of old. Just compare modern Blizzard teams:

With the people who created the company:

I mean, even Michael Morhaime, the money guy of the company, was an engineer and a nerd who played bass in their little metal band:

 

[Reinhardt]

Sorry, Lyric Suite retadred rating is not for your post. I just can't help but rate soyfaces with

 

[MWaser]

 

[Reinhardt]

Imagine being that doggo. He's actually looking to asians for help on this photo.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Maybe you are right and it looked better than the 3d of the time. But it still was rather bad. People frequently say the older 3d aged badly, but I thought it was always bad, to be honest.

Yeah but your beef is with early 3D in general then, not with this game in particular.

I always thought that Battle Realms withstood the test of time better than Warcraft 3.

It didn't. The terrain for instance is flat and boring in Battle Realms, where as in Warcraft 3 it's varied and feels better thought out, has a better sense of altitude in it etc. Comparing screen shots doesn't work it's the way the game works in motion that's impressive with WC3, technologically speaking.

Battle Realms was basically made as if it was a 2D game:



You could replace the 3D models with sprites and it wouldn't make a difference where as Warcraft 3 took better advantage of the 3D space:



Of course, Blizzard had more money so we expected this extra level of polish. Not anymore i guess. Also, what sank Battle Realms was the lack of something like Battle.net which is hilarious considering how shitty Battle.net is today.

 

[Harthwain]

It didn't. The terrain for instance is flat and boring in Battle Realms, where as in Warcraft 3 it's varied and feels better thought out, has a better sense of altitude in it etc. Comparing screen shots doesn't work it's the way the game works in motion that's impressive with WC3, technologically speaking.

Battle Realms was basically made as if it was a 2D game. You could replace the 3D models with sprites and it wouldn't make a difference where as Warcraft 3 took better advantage of the 3D space.

I wasn't comparing the screenshots. I was talking about the live gameplay. I even checked it after you made your comment, in case it was nostalgia speaking, but no. I don't think that a 2D game looking like 3D is a bad thing. It may be less advanced from technological standpoint, but the end result is really good. At least for me.

 

[abija]

Going to go out on a limb and guess that like most companies that deteriorate, it's filled with management that was hired because they were friends/family of talent rather than actual talent.

Not necessarily it. At a certain size the company is going to be targeted by people who join just for easy money. Their only focus is getting to high payed positions that have very little to do and can easily pass blame. And the worst mistake is not realizing just how skilled they are at what they do and that they work just as hard as the talent at bettering themselves.
These guys will never miss a chance to hire loyal useless minions just to strengthen their position. Much more frequent/dangerous than actual talent doing it, because those guys care about their work.

 

[Cross]

I always thought that Battle Realms withstood the test of time better than Warcraft 3.

It didn't. The terrain for instance is flat and boring in Battle Realms, where as in Warcraft 3 it's varied and feels better thought out, has a better sense of altitude in it etc.

Battle Realms' maps have plenty of elevation, so much so that having the higher ground is a very tangible game mechanic: