Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Pre-Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Alex]

May be it's improper place to ask, but how do you play at your table top?

Specifically, how do DM's handle simultaneous nature of fights in real world? Are the actions broader (like, "I am firing fireball at the group of goblins" -- "The goblins moved out, you missed")? Is there any interrupt system (like, "one especially stinky goblin on a giant rat shoots your mage who is trying to cast fireball. Roll concentration check")? Or does it work like that stupid TB mod of yours ("Your fireball hits perfectly, covers all of goblins, half of goblins saved for half damage, the other half are dead")?

When using the combat layer, the initiative system dictates that spells such as Fireball happen instantly (Some spells take longer to cast but they are the exception). The concept of enemies dodging the Fireball is accounted for by the reflex save.

(snip...)

Which, by the way, frequently makes no sense at all. Older D&D editions had the excuse of having abstract combat and not having attributes affect saves for the most part. In D&D 3e you instead have people dodging a fireball that covered more than the whole area they could escape to while inside a dungeon with no covers.

I mean you can explain this away in various ways. For example you could say the individual in question dived behind some cover, or used a nearby opponent (or friendly!) as a meat shield. When that's not applicable, maybe they used a magical cape to cleverly shield themselves from most of the blast, or something similar, such as they dived to the ground and shielded their face from the blast, compared with the big dumb fighter who just stood there going 'GRAGH?'

Of course there will always be inconsistencies.

You can just remove the unnecessary abstraction from the system. The GM asks the player how they want to try to avoid the blast and rolls likewise. If a player wants to take cover, roll a dexterity test based on how far the cover is. If the player wants to use a magical cape, roll a simple dex test and diminish the damage according to the enchantment of the cape. If they tried to hit the fireball back to the wizard, roll a hard dex test and, if the player has some powerful magical weaponry, send the missile back. If not, he takes extra damage for being at the ground 0. Other actions could include teleporting away before the fireball hits, counterspelling it, throwing some kind of dousing potion at it or even simply being lucky (like a luck roll in a Fighting Fantasy game).

 

[Grampy_Bone]

You can just remove the unnecessary abstraction from the system. The GM asks the player how they want to try to avoid the blast and rolls likewise. If a player wants to take cover, roll a dexterity test based on how far the cover is. If the player wants to use a magical cape, roll a simple dex test and diminish the damage according to the enchantment of the cape. If they tried to hit the fireball back to the wizard, roll a hard dex test and, if the player has some powerful magical weaponry, send the missile back. If not, he takes extra damage for being at the ground 0. Other actions could include teleporting away before the fireball hits, counterspelling it, throwing some kind of dousing potion at it or even simply being lucky (like a luck roll in a Fighting Fantasy game).

Uhh, these are all abstractions too. Anything with a roll is abstract by definition. This would only slow down play further and create more arguments.

 

[Yosharian]

You can just remove the unnecessary abstraction from the system. The GM asks the player how they want to try to avoid the blast and rolls likewise. If a player wants to take cover, roll a dexterity test based on how far the cover is. If the player wants to use a magical cape, roll a simple dex test and diminish the damage according to the enchantment of the cape. If they tried to hit the fireball back to the wizard, roll a hard dex test and, if the player has some powerful magical weaponry, send the missile back. If not, he takes extra damage for being at the ground 0. Other actions could include teleporting away before the fireball hits, counterspelling it, throwing some kind of dousing potion at it or even simply being lucky (like a luck roll in a Fighting Fantasy game).

I mean that sounds very complicated to me but ok

 

[Alex]

You can just remove the unnecessary abstraction from the system. The GM asks the player how they want to try to avoid the blast and rolls likewise. If a player wants to take cover, roll a dexterity test based on how far the cover is. If the player wants to use a magical cape, roll a simple dex test and diminish the damage according to the enchantment of the cape. If they tried to hit the fireball back to the wizard, roll a hard dex test and, if the player has some powerful magical weaponry, send the missile back. If not, he takes extra damage for being at the ground 0. Other actions could include teleporting away before the fireball hits, counterspelling it, throwing some kind of dousing potion at it or even simply being lucky (like a luck roll in a Fighting Fantasy game).

Uhh, these are all abstractions too. Anything with a roll is abstract by definition. This would only slow down play further and create more arguments.

The word "unnecessary" is there for a reason, although perhaps it wasn't the best choice either. Of course you will always have abstractions, but the original abstraction of a saving throw didn't do a very good of representing a lot of situations that come up in dungeon crawling. They furthermore aren't interactive on the defender's part, and cancel magical effects without any explanation of what is going on. Hit points are an abstractions as well, but you at least have an idea that when someone has taken damage, that they are in some way hurt. If they took damage from a fireball, they should be somewhat burnt. If it was a sword, they are cut up. Saving throws just stop the gaming fiction on its tracks and don't mesh well with any kind of player idea of counter-action (you can, of course, allow the players to do all the things I mentioned above in a Pathfinder game if you want. But the saving throw system is not helping you do it).

Edit: As for this slowing down the game, I don't think this is significantly more complex than the stuff that Shadowrun 3e did. The GM should be ready to make a ruling on anything too crazy the PCs come up with, and the system can help with more common situations (for instance, how far can you throw yourself from your current position away from a fireball blast, given speed and whatever other abilities that might affect this).

I mean that sounds very complicated to me but ok

Saving throws are a pet peeve of mine. Especially when you have an agile target who literally is cornered and with nowhere to go, but who nevertheless succeeds at his reflex save and has the evasion feat, managing to ignore the spell.

 

[Ontopoly]

I'm seeing some really stupid unrealistic ideas of how table top gaming should be run. Lets have a quick gatekeeping test to see who is even qualified to have this conversation:
Have you ever played or even watched a dnd or Pathfinder session?

 

[Yosharian]

I'm seeing some really stupid unrealistic ideas of how table top gaming should be run. Lets have a quick gatekeeping test to see who is even qualified to have this conversation:
Have you ever played or even watched a dnd or Pathfinder session?

Who exactly are you calling out, here?

 

[Ontopoly]

Also should dms be required to take an advanced physics class for their DM license? We wouldn't want anything to be unrealistic.

 

[Shadenuat]

Saving throws are a pet peeve of mine. Especially when you have an agile target who literally is cornered and with nowhere to go, but who nevertheless succeeds at his reflex save and has the evasion feat, managing to ignore the spell.

that's what advantage/disadvantage are for in 5th.

 

[Alex]

I'm seeing some really stupid unrealistic ideas of how table top gaming should be run. Lets have a quick gatekeeping test to see who is even qualified to have this conversation:
Have you ever played or even watched a dnd or Pathfinder session?

I played some 3e, which is pretty much the same as Pathfinder. Other than that, several older D&D interactions and some other stuff. I tend to prefer GURPS, though.

Also should dms be required to take an advanced physics class for their DM license? We wouldn't want anything to be unrealistic.

Yes, with a specialisation on magical mechanics.
But seriously, asking the GM to come up with rulings for what happens on the table is a real low bar for tabletop. Every older RPG did this and was better off for it.

Saving throws are a pet peeve of mine. Especially when you have an agile target who literally is cornered and with nowhere to go, but who nevertheless succeeds at his reflex save and has the evasion feat, managing to ignore the spell.

that's what advantage/disadvantage are for in 5th.

Sorry for the rage rating, but that is yet another pet peeve, and one of the reasons I never gave 5e the time of the day. I would rather have different situations affect the outcome differently, as in a normal game with bonuses and penalties, than have every single situation dealt the same. A disadvantage can be as simple as a slippery ground or as harrowing as fighting on ice, in the rain, without light, with dogs barking in the background and a strong wind blowing...

 

[Ontopoly]

I should make a poll to see if Alex passes the 'true table top gamer' test. Also I agree on advantage /disadvantage being cancer.

 

[Sarkile]

In regard to the turn based mod, I was wrong. It doesn't just exploit the auto pause settings, there's more to it. From the mod author:
"It's not a tweaking of auto-pause options, actually it reorganized how and when the combat mechanics is executed (e.g. it stops the time and blocks units commands except current unit), the fact is the vanilla pause function (and options) still works in TB combat. It's feasible because Owlcat implemented most of the action economy in the same way as tabletop, so most of the mechanics (and other mods) still work with this tweak, and the mod just needs to fix the remaining parts and adds things which isn't implemented in the base game."
Source: https://steamcommunity.com/app/640820/discussions/0/1637543304847410171/?ctp=6#c1630790443998239664

The biggest reason I would prefer Owlcat to actually provide a TB option is that it wouldn't change much. It might be a touch easier due to the fact that you can strategically cast spells, but the core of the gameplay is still the same. The mod even felt balanced for the original game. The biggest benefit to Owlcat actually including this, versus a mod, would be proper UI implementation IMO and perhaps a few fixes to pathfinding.

 

[Yosharian]

I really don't see the problem with advantage and disadvantage.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Yeah I don't see the disadvantage of an advantage and disadvantage system either.

 

[Sarkile]

Yeah I don't see the disadvantage of an advantage and disadvantage system either.

It works pretty solidly in tabletop. It's super contextual though, and I'm not 100% sure how it would work in a CRPG.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Have you ever played or even watched a dnd or Pathfinder session?

Never did, never will.

Also should dms be required to take an advanced physics class for their DM license?

This, and also every TB-fag should provide irrefutable evidence that s/he finished one of XCOM games on the hardest difficulty with ironman mode.

 

[Reinhardt]

Nigga, it's codex. People here like to talk about turned-based roleplaying rpg games, but playing them?

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

not gonna lie these improved animal companions sound broken

pathfinder is way too over the top for my tastes. I mean I am going to play it, and appreciate that they are making proper D&D for the most part, but at 9th level all my characters have endless rings and books and tomes and gloves that push their stats up to like 24 and 26 for all their main statistics, and you end up having +48 to hit and 62 AC and on and on, its like playing a god or a super hero more than a dungeons and dragons game. Then you add in kung fu bears wearing armors and its really silly. I would like to see someone make a more down to earth dungeons and dragons game someday. Or is that out of the question? Is it all furies and walking talking kung fu animals you rape after battle from here on out?

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

May be it's improper place to ask, but how do you play at your table top?

Specifically, how do DM's handle simultaneous nature of fights in real world? Are the actions broader (like, "I am firing fireball at the group of goblins" -- "The goblins moved out, you missed")? Is there any interrupt system (like, "one especially stinky goblin on a giant rat shoots your mage who is trying to cast fireball. Roll concentration check")? Or does it work like that stupid TB mod of yours ("Your fireball hits perfectly, covers all of goblins, half of goblins saved for half damage, the other half are dead")?

nobody has ever thought of this before. You are the first one. You should bring it up to the table top people.

 

[FranticDistortion]

not gonna lie these improved animal companions sound broken

pathfinder is way too over the top for my tastes. I mean I am going to play it, and appreciate that they are making proper D&D for the most part, but at 9th level all my characters have endless rings and books and tomes and gloves that push their stats up to like 24 and 26 for all their main statistics, and you end up having +48 to hit and 62 AC and on and on, its like playing a god or a super hero more than a dungeons and dragons game. Then you add in kung fu bears wearing armors and its really silly. I would like to see someone make a more down to earth dungeons and dragons game someday. Or is that out of the question? Is it all furies and walking talking kung fu animals you rape after battle from here on out?

You want a Pathfinder game to be more like a D&D game and less of a Pathfinder game?

Hope D&D based games stop releasing altogether. I can't eat a taco without getting flashbacks to it's dogshit systems.

 

[Delterius]

Abstractions are good and ok.

 

[Pink Eye]

Abstractions are good and ok.

I hope abstractions is a stretch goal.

 

[Pink Eye]

 

[Delterius]

Abstractions are good and ok.

I hope abstractions is a stretch goal.

It's like dismemberment with non linear magic.

 

[Pink Eye]

Spoiler

 

[Pink Eye]

We should hit the stretch goal today.