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Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Pre-Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Xamenos

Magister
Patron
Joined
Feb 4, 2020
Messages
1,256
Pathfinder: Wrath
Well. /v/ has been ousted as a bunch of furries.
xKRejPR.png
15 votes. Why the fuck would you even post that here?
 

CaesarCzech

Scholar
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
445
there is massive fall off. Owlcat should have swapped the new race with animals, basically use the furies decadence against them.
 

TT1

Arcane
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Joined
Nov 25, 2016
Messages
1,479
Location
Krakow
Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
We have a huge drop in pledges today, and probably it will continue for the next 20 days.

So final number will be something between 1,5M to 1,8M.
 

Yosharian

Arcane
Joined
May 28, 2018
Messages
9,430
Location
Grand Chien
I really don't see the problem with advantage and disadvantage.
Yeah I don't see the disadvantage of an advantage and disadvantage system either.

The main problem I have is this:

5e SRD said:
If circumstances cause a roll to have both advantage and disadvantage, you are considered to have neither of them, and you roll one d20. This is true even if multiple circumstances impose disadvantage and only one grants advantage or vice versa. In such a situation, you have neither advantage nor disadvantage.

The issue here is that the system has no gradation; you either have the advantage or not. Now a whole lot of other systems, including Fighting Fantasy (which is so simple characters in that only have 3 attributes) saw no problem in allowing gradation on how different situations were treated. A minor problems might just be a -1 to your roll, while a greate difficulty could be a much larger number (depending on what kind of dice your system uses, -10 is a whole lot if you roll 2d6 for skill checks, but it isn't such a big problem if you are rolling a d100).

The reason this is important is that frequently, how good a plan the PCs have to solve something will translate directly into some kind of advantage or disadvantage. For example, if you are fighting a troll, you might get him on slippery ground, create distractions with sound illusions around him and get him into a specially narrow section of the dungeon so he has little room for manoeuvring. But if all this does is give him a disadvantage while fighting, and you could get the exact same effect by, say, casting curse on it, there is no point to these plans. The system no longer represents reality, and is just a game you play instead; and living and dying is no longer a question of being creative but of mastering a formal math system.
Ah ok I see your criticism, however I use both systems in pathfinder and I'm aware that advantage gives roughly +3 to the roll. So I can grade up and down if a lesser/greater bonus is needed. I just use advantage most of the time because it can be swingy and I think it's exciting for players when they get a big swing
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,236
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Goddammit, the monument ($1500) and familiar ($2000) tiers are gone. I hope our fundraiser is able to raise more money than that.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,949
Pathfinder: Wrath
The only balance needed in a single-player game is to have more than one ways to make your characters absurdly overpowered. Pathfinder has that. All Owlcat needs to do is make more enemies provide some actual challenge in higher difficulties, like they promised.
>absurdly overpowered characters
>challenging combat/encounters

Pick one. They literally contradict each other.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,236
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Goddammit, the monument ($1500) and familiar ($2000) tiers are gone. I hope our fundraiser is able to raise more money than that.
What happens if all the high tiers are gone before the end of the kickstarter?

You mean with our fundraiser? I don't know, Owlcat seem to like the Codex so maybe they'll do us a favor and add an extra thing in the game for us anyway.
 

Alex

Arcane
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Messages
8,750
Location
São Paulo - Brasil
The word "unnecessary" is there for a reason, although perhaps it wasn't the best choice either. Of course you will always have abstractions, but the original abstraction of a saving throw didn't do a very good of representing a lot of situations that come up in dungeon crawling. They furthermore aren't interactive on the defender's part, and cancel magical effects without any explanation of what is going on. Hit points are an abstractions as well, but you at least have an idea that when someone has taken damage, that they are in some way hurt. If they took damage from a fireball, they should be somewhat burnt. If it was a sword, they are cut up. Saving throws just stop the gaming fiction on its tracks and don't mesh well with any kind of player idea of counter-action (you can, of course, allow the players to do all the things I mentioned above in a Pathfinder game if you want. But the saving throw system is not helping you do it).

Edit: As for this slowing down the game, I don't think this is significantly more complex than the stuff that Shadowrun 3e did. The GM should be ready to make a ruling on anything too crazy the PCs come up with, and the system can help with more common situations (for instance, how far can you throw yourself from your current position away from a fireball blast, given speed and whatever other abilities that might affect this).

Literally everything you said was "roll a dexterity check." Dexterity as in, idk, REFLEXES. The only other thing you mentioned was counterspelling, which is also an option in 3.x games.

Most of the examples are dexterity, yes. Avoiding an attack usually has to do with reflex and precision, so of course most uses will involve a dexterity check. The issue is that some of them are harder and some are easier (and this has nothing to do with spell level) and that some of them will give you different results. An example, you could stop the fireball by throwing a boulder at the wizard so the boulder hits the fireball just as he throws it. In that case, you would need a good strength value (throwing a small pebble might prove to be ineffective, and it would be harder to hit the fireball with it anyway) and a hard dexterity/throwing (if this is a skill in your game system) roll. The result would not only, depending on positioning, keep the blast away from you, but also catch the wizard in it. This is a very different effect from half-damage.

Players are free to imagine what reflexes mean to them. If it meant diving for cover, fine. If someone is hampered by rough terrain or spells (entangle) then that affects their reflex save and prevents evasion. Thus these rules provide the exact outcomes you desire with the required level of simulation. You are arguing over flavor text.

Players are free to imagine, but are they free to plan? If the DM consistently only uses saving throws, no matter the description the player gives his actions, then the description is like you said, flavour text. But if it instead forms the basis of what is happening on the table (which is something every older D&D edition did), then it is not just flavour text, but the actual gameplay. I mean, old board games from the 90s were doing this type of thing already (or maybe I should say yet):


The case in question, using the sting of the scorpion man against itself isn't so much a reaction, but it could easily be construed as a counter attack.

I've played with groups like this where the DM expects to adjust or overrule basic mechanics like saves and skill checks on a per-roll basis and it always, ALWAYS devolves into fighting with the DM. No exceptions.

Some arguing over what specific bonuses and differences your action will have is to be expected, since this can help explain better what you have in mind. But the DM should know when to stop the argument and the players should either accept his call or simply not play with him.

Saving throws are fine. Everyone knows how they work and what they do. There's nothing to argue about there.

They are fine in their original context. They are fine if you are battling a score of goblins and you just want to figure out how many of them survive a fireball, and you are not using a map or anything like that. If you are doing a detailed fight, where each movement is accounted for, saving throws as they are described in 3e are too abstract and detract from the experience.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
19,889
Goddammit, the monument ($1500) and familiar ($2000) tiers are gone. I hope our fundraiser is able to raise more money than that.
What happens if all the high tiers are gone before the end of the kickstarter?

You mean with our fundraiser? I don't know, Owlcat seem to like the Codex so maybe they'll do us a favor and add an extra thing in the game for us anyway.
They don't like us enough to have a dev here talking with us. They didn't leave a single post on Codex.
 

Pink Eye

Monk
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Joined
Oct 10, 2019
Messages
5,793
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Space Refrigerator
I'm very into cock and ball torture
Goddammit, the monument ($1500) and familiar ($2000) tiers are gone. I hope our fundraiser is able to raise more money than that.
What happens if all the high tiers are gone before the end of the kickstarter?

You mean with our fundraiser? I don't know, Owlcat seem to like the Codex so maybe they'll do us a favor and add an extra thing in the game for us anyway.
They don't like us enough to have a dev here talking with us. They didn't leave a single post on Codex.
They do post on /v/ though:
jtbBz9L.jpg
 

InD_ImaginE

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 23, 2015
Messages
5,367
Pathfinder: Wrath
Infinitron regarding the KS, there is a fee cut when I go to the page. Do I need to include the fee in my pledge (28 USD + whatever small percentage) or is 28 USD enough?

They do post on /v/ though:

Man Codex being less popular for gamedevs than chan. We are that infamous arent we
 

user

Savant
Joined
Jan 22, 2019
Messages
835
Goddammit, the monument ($1500) and familiar ($2000) tiers are gone. I hope our fundraiser is able to raise more money than that.
What happens if all the high tiers are gone before the end of the kickstarter?

You mean with our fundraiser? I don't know, Owlcat seem to like the Codex so maybe they'll do us a favor and add an extra thing in the game for us anyway.
They don't like us enough to have a dev here talking with us. They didn't leave a single post on Codex.

Maybe they don't have a dev with high fortitude saving throws?
Edit: Scratch that, they post on /v/
 

Grampy_Bone

Arcane
Joined
Jan 25, 2016
Messages
3,640
Location
Wandering the world randomly in search of maps
I really don't see the problem with advantage and disadvantage.
Yeah I don't see the disadvantage of an advantage and disadvantage system either.

The main problem I have is this:

5e SRD said:
If circumstances cause a roll to have both advantage and disadvantage, you are considered to have neither of them, and you roll one d20. This is true even if multiple circumstances impose disadvantage and only one grants advantage or vice versa. In such a situation, you have neither advantage nor disadvantage.

The issue here is that the system has no gradation; you either have the advantage or not. Now a whole lot of other systems, including Fighting Fantasy (which is so simple characters in that only have 3 attributes) saw no problem in allowing gradation on how different situations were treated. A minor problems might just be a -1 to your roll, while a greate difficulty could be a much larger number (depending on what kind of dice your system uses, -10 is a whole lot if you roll 2d6 for skill checks, but it isn't such a big problem if you are rolling a d100).

The reason this is important is that frequently, how good a plan the PCs have to solve something will translate directly into some kind of advantage or disadvantage. For example, if you are fighting a troll, you might get him on slippery ground, create distractions with sound illusions around him and get him into a specially narrow section of the dungeon so he has little room for manoeuvring. But if all this does is give him a disadvantage while fighting, and you could get the exact same effect by, say, casting curse on it, there is no point to these plans. The system no longer represents reality, and is just a game you play instead; and living and dying is no longer a question of being creative but of mastering a formal math system.
Ah ok I see your criticism, however I use both systems in pathfinder and I'm aware that advantage gives roughly +3 to the roll. So I can grade up and down if a lesser/greater bonus is needed. I just use advantage most of the time because it can be swingy and I think it's exciting for players when they get a big swing

Back in the day I played D&D with this group who liked to be "creative" in combat. A battle would start and instead of making attack rolls they would say "I stab the orc in the eye." The DM would have them roll a dex check or something and then conclude "You stabbed the orc, it dies." WTF? The combat system implies everyone is trying to kill each other as best they can, that's what attack rolls and AC and HP are for.

If you're just going to ignore the combat system, you are playing the wrong RPG. That poster Alex hates math because it ruins his game of Let's Pretend. That's totally fine, he's free to play a game with less restrictive rules. But then his criticism of saves and advantage/disadvantage is dumb. There are games which boil combat down into 1-2 skill checks, go ahead and play those. Complaining D&D combat rules are unrealistic usually belies an ignorance of those rules.

Reading books and learning rulesets is hard.
 

Xamenos

Magister
Patron
Joined
Feb 4, 2020
Messages
1,256
Pathfinder: Wrath
The only balance needed in a single-player game is to have more than one ways to make your characters absurdly overpowered. Pathfinder has that. All Owlcat needs to do is make more enemies provide some actual challenge in higher difficulties, like they promised.
>absurdly overpowered characters
>challenging combat/encounters

Pick one. They literally contradict each other.
Only if you're an idiot. Everything available to the players can also be used against them. The rules are the same, and you can even "cheat" with OP monster abilities. Old games used to have murderous optional encounters hidden in the forgotten corners of the world. It's not rocket science.
 
Joined
Feb 8, 2020
Messages
387
Infinitron regarding the KS, there is a fee cut when I go to the page. Do I need to include the fee in my pledge (28 USD + whatever small percentage) or is 28 USD enough?

They do post on /v/ though:

Man Codex being less popular for gamedevs than chan. We are that infamous arent we

Codex triggers malicious site warnings from every single browser. So yeah, us being worse than /v/ is a general consensus.
 

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