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Playing Wizards & Warriors for the first time

Kliwer

Savant
Joined
Oct 19, 2018
Messages
215
Hello there!

I’m just going to play this game for the first time. I’m now planning my party:


Dwarf: warrior -> barbarian -> assassin [axe, bow]

Human: warrior -> paladin [sword, shield]

Cat: warrior -> ranger [bow, sword]

Gnome: thief -> ninja [dual-wielding daggers, throwing weapons]

Elephant: cleric -> warlock -> zenmaster (perhaps) [staff]

Elf: wizard -> bard [dagger]


I do not like typica Wizardry mechanic (it is pure munchkinizm in my eyes) so I’m not going to change roles too often; I limit myself to one character per role (except of warrior). However I have some questions:


1.) Is the above group strong enough to comfortably play the game?

2.) Is it any reason to develop stealth skill for my thief? According to manual a ninja will receive the “cloak of the night” trait; how those two work together?

3.) I have read that swords are the most common type of weapons; is an axe for my dwarf good enough?

4.) Anything else I should know? Which skills/traits should be prioritized?


Thank you in advance for your advice.

Hail!
 

V_K

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I'm not sure that a wizard->bard ascension makes sense. Normally you'd make a bard from your thief to have some additional magic power in the party. A character that is already a caster won't gain anything from switching to bard (instruments aren't much use when you already have spells, and there's no need to have two lockpickers in the party). I think a more natural progression is wizard->warlock, priest->monk(->zenmaster) and thief->bard. Having both ninja and assassin in the party is an overkill anyway.
However, it's not a terribly hard game (EXCEPT FOR THOSE FUCKING MANTRAPS :argh:), it's hard to fuck up your party completely.
 

Kliwer

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Ok, thank You. According to Your hints I have changed my party design:


-Dwarf: warrior -> barbarian -> assassin [maybe]

-Human: warrior -> paladin -> zenmaster [maybe]

-Cat: warrior -> ranger -> on higher level maybe ninja?

-Gnome: thief -> bard

-Elephant: cleric -> monk [it will be a long way due to low dexterity and agility] -> Valkyrie

-Elf: wizard -> warlock


I have quite high stats for all my party members (surprisingly without much re-rolling); everyone have 69-73 points in total. Dwarf is almost ready to be barbarian (only one extra point in presence is needed), gnome and cat are ready to advance from the start. Human and elf need a bit more, and elephant requires 8 points (all in dexterity/agility).


I’m after first short session. Some comments:

-I like the graphic, music and atmosphere of the game; it’s something between Wizardry and Might&Magic.

-It is painfully clear that first idea of this game was quite different. Every mechanic, every piece of interface screams: “I’m designed for the single-character game”. For example the fact that shopkeepers greet every party member separately. Or power-horse, able to carry 6 person at one (with elephant among them…). I have read that W&W was supposed to be multiplayer game and there are some relics of such design; for example animated figurines of our heroes or the dialogue system.

-The combat system is weird but functional (for now). I have never liked “phase system” from Wizardry so I can accept this strange hybrid. It’s also better then those mixed abomination from M&M6-8. I only cannot catch the point, when real-time switches to turn-base.

-I like this first moment after character creation when you start to discover the new world… For now everything seems distant: joining guilds require a lot of money, even the basic equipment seems expensive.


Some new questions:

-About my elephant cleric – should I develop her “vine spells” firstly? After promotion to a monk a “spirit magic” will be still her class skills, but “vine” not. Also what type of weapon should she develop? I wish to give her points in staffs, but I do not know what to think about kung-fu.

-Which classes could learn dual-wielding?
 

V_K

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power-horse, able to carry 6 person at one (with elephant among them…)
Try a whole-elephant party for extra lulz :lol:
I only cannot catch the point, when real-time switches to turn-base.
It's a little bit tricky. The game should pause when you're in combat, standing still and have characters that are not on cooldown. However, if an enemy/NPC has started an action (animation) before the pause triggered, he will finish it anyway. That's why those fucking mantraps are so dangerous - they start their breath attack from a distance and get to finish it either way, by which time your party gets stunned and incapable to act, so the game switches back to real-time to let the condition wear off - but that just gives the mantrap the opportunity to make the breath attack again.
 

Strange Fellow

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I only cannot catch the point, when real-time switches to turn-base.
My impression is that enemies act in real-time until they get up close and perform a melee attack. After that, that particular enemy as well as your party enter turn-based mode, while other enemies are still in real-time until (if) they too close the distance and attack in melee. This game is all kinds of weird.
 

V_K

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About my elephant cleric – should I develop her “vine spells” firstly? After promotion to a monk a “spirit magic” will be still her class skills
IIRC, you can advance and learn spells in all skill you've learned in any role. Generally, the class changing mechanic in W&W is far more forgiving than in Wizardry.
 

Kliwer

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IIRC, you can advance and learn spells in all skill you've learned in any role. Generally, the class changing mechanic in W&W is far more forgiving than in Wizardry.

According to manual:

“Excepting Warlocks and Zenmasters, who are eligible to learn all books of magic, if a character changes Roles, then the character may only learn new spells in any former Books of Magic which are no longer applicable to the new Role, at a level equal to half of the character's skill in that Book.”

So – as I understand - in case of cleric->monk I should develop “vine school” as far as I can before class switch.
 

V_K

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IIRC, you can advance and learn spells in all skill you've learned in any role. Generally, the class changing mechanic in W&W is far more forgiving than in Wizardry.

According to manual:

“Excepting Warlocks and Zenmasters, who are eligible to learn all books of magic, if a character changes Roles, then the character may only learn new spells in any former Books of Magic which are no longer applicable to the new Role, at a level equal to half of the character's skill in that Book.”
I honestly don't remember having any problems with that. So either I continued pumping Vinecraft after the switch (you can still do that), or high-level Vine spells just aren't that necessary. As I've said, it's not a hard game, you don't need a minmaxed party to win it. On my first playthrough, for example, I didn't get any of the elite roles - and still was fine.
 

KeighnMcDeath

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God I'm a fucking retard. All these years I always thought Sir-Tech made Wizards & Warriors.
Wizardry 8 mobygames
Wizards & Warriors mobygames

Ya'll remember Murphy the ghost slime fucker in Wizardry 1? Well, I damn well know Wizardrs & Warriors has a similar slime ghost fucker named Rumphy. OK... I digress. I tend to like WW more than W8 though I seem to recall a damn bug that made it so I couldn't finish the damn game. I haven't tried to finish the gog version yet as I've been distracted with hoarding other shit but it makes me wonder; did the masses prefer W8 over WW or the other way around? I killed so many starter elephants for duping just because ... well I wanted them to become an endangered species and duping. That was one of my many parties anyways. WTF is wrong with me not committing to 1 party and finishing a damn game?
 
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Darth Canoli

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-It is painfully clear that first idea of this game was quite different. Every mechanic, every piece of interface screams: “I’m designed for the single-character game”. For example the fact that shopkeepers greet every party member separately.

You should consider to limit your character subscription to as few guilds as possible, these dialogs you can's skip every time you visit a shop and switch characters are extremely painful.

Don't multi-class too much, you'll find it's not necessary.

Aside from the town nonsense, the game is quite enjoyable.
 

Kliwer

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Oct 19, 2018
Messages
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I’m playing it slowly (not much of a free time, as usual). Some comments.


1. This real-time/turn-base mixture is, as always, broken, stupid and buggy. Many times I can’t figure out what is going on. Sometimes my group and nearby monsters are in turn-base mode but further enemies are in real-time. Sometimes I can interrupt enemies attacks by my own attacks, even in turn-base mode. I’m always receiving some free hits from enemies before turn-base mode turns on… Yeeee…. It’s the same shit as in M&M 6-8, Arcanum or whatever. Bows are useless.

…but it is not bad enough to ruin the game, luckily. Fights are quick, which I prefer to Wizardry 8 extensive, repetitive battles.

2. Character system is quite good. Less munchin-like than in Wizardry, more intuitive, without stupid penalties like attributes decline after dual-classing. I like promotion quests and guild system.

3. Graphic and sound are good and nice, only view distance is a bit too short. I also miss our heroes “barks” and comments (ala Wizardry 8). Interface is clunky, but tolerable. Only distribution of stackable objects (like potions) is a pain in the ass.

4. Overworld exploration is mediocre; too much empty spaces in those labyrinths of trees. I must compare this with M&M games, where every inch on space has something: fountain, monsters lair, chest, village, castle, riddle etc. But I like NPC interactions. And hors riding.

5. I’m in the very first dungeon (the Crypt) but… wow, it’s very good dungeon indeed. Better than anything in Wizardry or in M&M 6. Riddles, elevators (and usage of Z axis), hidden chambers, waters to dive in, item puzzles, broken stairs… Spawn rate is tolerable (and, as I said above, encounters are fast). I like necessity of light spells (or torches) – in the begging I was so glad to have can-man in my group (witch night vision trait), after acquisition of third level light spell is not as important. For now the stronger point of this game – I wish future dungeons would be as good as this one.

6. I like the atmosphere of the world but I wish a bit more lore, especially around all those strange races like elephant people. Without some background information (books, notes, NPCs stories) all looks like random collection of fantasy tropes. Who rules this world? Who is the king of this land? Are those cities located in one realm or in different ones? What lies beyond map borders? Maybe it’s not important from the game-play perspective but I like to have some background, even in such cliché setting.


All in all I still do not have my own final opinion. Bad things are bearable, good things are promising enough to continue.
 

Strange Fellow

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I'm also playing it, and I'm also having a good time. Mostly agree with the above.
Sometimes I can interrupt enemies attacks by my own attacks, even in turn-base mode.
It seems that when the turn comes for an enemy to attack, it initiates its attack animation, and then you can interrupt it by attacking before it's finished, in which case it will repeat the animation from the beginning at the earliest opportunity, regardless of turn order, until it has gotten it done. :? Broken stupid and buggy indeed.
Fights are quick, which I prefer to Wizardry 8 extensive, repetitive battles.
:nocountryforshitposters:
Overworld exploration is mediocre; too much empty spaces in those labyrinths of trees. I must compare this with M&M games, where every inch on space has something: fountain, monsters lair, chest, village, castle, riddle etc.
Completely agree, it's just annoying to navigate these pointlessly complicated mazes. A lot has been said about Wiz 8's monster highways, but I prefer those roads to these.

Other annoying things:
When you encounter an NPC in the wilderness and speak to him once, whereupon he promptly fucks off to who knows where, never to be seen again. Particularly great if he's part of a quest.
The fact that shop NPC repeat their whole "Greetings!" and quest recap spiel every single time you switch characters. This also goes for having to accept and turn in certain quests with each individual character.
Amazonian mantraps.

I wish future dungeons would be as good as this one.
Without spoiling anything (I'm a bit further along than you, but not that far), it looks like they are. The crypt was brilliant, I agree.

I'm no great fan of the world though, it's extremely generic, albeit with lovely nuggets of Bradleyrian prose just like in Wiz 6/7. This game makes me dream about what could've been if the Wiz 8 devs had had these guys on board to design the dungeons and assist with the writing...
 
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Grampy_Bone

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Couple things:

-Zenmaster is a mage-type class, I wouldn't move a fighter type like a paladin to it.

-Valkyrie is only available in the final dungeon. It's a nice class but don't expect to get it before then.

1-2 class changes is ideal for the game. Your picks mostly look fine, you're limited by the class changing quests and guild membership anyway. I min-maxed by making everyone in my group a ninja at one point just to get stealth on them all. It was fun but not worth it.

Also, VERY IMPORTANT. Pay attention to this:

When you get to the third section of the game with the boat, make a backup save and do not overwrite it. Back up your save game directory if you have to. There is an underwater dungeon in that section of the game that can bug up and make the game completely unwinnable. Happened to me, twice.
 

Grampy_Bone

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Another thing, don't freak out about characters gaining 1 hp on level up. The game uses old-school wizardry HP increases. When you gain a level, the game rerolls your entire HP pool. If the new number is higher, your HP are increased to match, if it's lower, you gain 1 hp.

So what happens sometimes is you gain 1hp for several levels then suddenly gain 40 hp. It all evens out eventually. When you start class changing expect to see 1hp gains for quite some time, since the new HP pool won't overtake the prior one until you reach a similar level.
 

Kliwer

Savant
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Oct 19, 2018
Messages
215
I’m after the Sneak Temple, all my characters have reached their first promotion. My current party:

-dwarf, warrior 6 -> barbarian 9

-human, warrior 6 -> paladin 8

-cat-man, warrior 6 -> ranger 8

-gnome, thief 9 -> bard 2

-elephant, cleric 10 -> monk 1

-elf, wizard 6 -> warlock 9


Some comments:

-The monk quest was especially annoying (you have to spend 2 in-game days without any armor nor weapon). I mean: my elephant did not have any equipped items during whole Serpent Temple adventure (I think it took me about 2 game days?) and the promotion quest did not succeed. So I just removed everything from her inventory and backpack, I left whole party near the town gates for 3 hours (real time…) and only after that I have reached the promotion. I do not know what was the reason of my first failure (too short time? Or maybe items in a backpack count in this quest?)


-The fact that most of the guild quests send us to the same locations, related to the main plot, is a bit disappointing. I had to visit the Crypt three times in a row. I also don't like side quests that are done by the way anyway (like killing Naga in the temple). It irritates that if a task is completed ahead of time, it is gone (I lost one promotion of my magician because I had killed the slime man before I received the task). Game is a bit too linear, without much of side locations, which is a shame.


-The Serpent Temple was a brilliant dungeon, even better than the Crypt. Really – the art of dungeon-building is now forgotten. Those two dungeons were vast, and in the same time very hand-crafted. They are much better than anything in Wizardry 8 or Might&Magic 6, not to mention shit modern games ala Skyrim. I like their size – big enough to feel lost, but not as huge to get bored. Both dungeons have a lot of content and features, they have enough specific places to treat them like real fantasy places (libraries, altars, warehouses, prisons etc.) – their design is logical, but in the same time there are enough “gaming” elements to have fun (traps, hidden chambers, elevators, puzzles). In general the exploration is a pleasure. Maybe puzzles are a bit too easy, but the whole design makes a good impression. I also like the atmosphere of those places – especially the Serpent Temple which invokes some memories of Conan’s adventures (from books and movies).


- I like the whole style and atmosphere of this game. It feels like a great classical adventure against the Dark Lord. I did not realize how I missed this well-worn them. It was so common in the eighties and nineties, but now it is oddly rare (what was the last campaign of this style? Dragon Age: Origins?). I can feel like a character from Dragon Lance novels or other power metal story (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUuoXWTYVHs), yeee! Probably many players do not like such a cheesy scheme anymore, but I do not demand anything more from a fantasy cRPG. Here we have everything: dark prophecy, magical swords, crying angels, dragons, a long forgotten battle of gods…


-Moreover: it is one of a few video games which can awake my imagination. It was so good to sail up the river on a raft to reach the weird frog-man village. The game provides a perfect illusion of a long journey through a fantasy land. Everything is interesting and mysterious. I also like the “dungeon master” comments here and there, in general this game greatly simulates typical PnP adventure. You could just feel like a party of chosen champions traveling through magical forests, unconquered mountains and ancient tunnels on a quest for glory! The world looks ancient and fantastic, not like those new universes full of modern deviants dressed up in medieval costumes.


-Menu-towns do not bother me. They look nice and gracefully – something like town screens from Heroes of Might and Magic.


-Art-style, although a bit too simplistic, is very imaginative. I like equipment icons, weapon and armor design, dungeon decorations (those giant serpent jaws...), enemies look (rat-man bandits!). Visuals are very similar to old D&D illustrations, which is a great plus of this game.


-Characters development is very, very good and rewarding. It is always new class to unlock, new trait to learn. Our development depends on 3 elements: exp grinding, guild advancement and gold resources – it is much more interesting than simple leveling from quest to quest. Gold, for now, is still useful. I have the impression that only games that require money to develop characters can keep the gold's usefulness for the most part of the gameplay (like this or M&M). It should be a rule to pay for spells, training etc.


All in all it could be one of my favorite blobbers (if it can keep a quality to the end). The game is definitely rough, but to a lesser extent than typical “great but…” title. If only the battle-system could be better, truly turn-based…


Really guys – play this title. It is so much better than watching endless cutscenes in Witcher 3 or raping armies of sprites in M&M6.
 

V_K

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It irritates that if a task is completed ahead of time, it is gone (I lost one promotion of my magician because I had killed the slime man before I received the task).
Are you sure about that? The way I remember it, if you get the quest you've already done, you just exit and enter the guild the second time and they count it as completed. Might be misremembering, of course.
 

Kliwer

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Nay. During my first trip to the Crypt I have slayed the slime wizard (he did not attack me but he looked like someone evil so…). After my return to the village I signed my wizard to the guild (previously I had not enough gold) and asked for quest; the guild master offered me the task of finding a crystal ball (according to the official game guide – it is the second quest from this line). I have never received a quest about those ugly creature.
 

luj1

You're all shills
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The game is clunky and early 3D-era, but if you can stomach that, the class system is very cool and innovative. I enjoyed the game very much (and I have a physical copy :love:).
 

Kliwer

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Other typical and funny thing. There are tones of scrolls, potions and other items with charges. For me they are mostly useless so I’m selling them. The problem is (like in most such games) that those items just duplicate spells available to our spellcasters. And because mana replenish so quickly there is no need to use all this stuff. Possibly they are only useful for unbalanced parties without access to some spell schools. I’m only keeping some high level scrolls (in case of a mythical “really hard boss”), but I will probably never use them.
This is a problem in many games. It is one of reasons why Baldur’s Gate (2) has one of the best loot in the genre – there are a lot of items which make something impossible to duplicate, for example the Mace of Disruption (instant-killing undead monsters), Boots of Gorgon (stoneskin for warrior classes) or potion of Magic Shield (very rare and powerful protection against spellcasers).
In general I think that consumables in cRPGs should be much rarer but also more powerful and harder (or impossible) to duplicate. Without this they count not much more then a typical gem to sell.
 

V_K

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Nay. During my first trip to the Crypt I have slayed the slime wizard (he did not attack me but he looked like someone evil so…). After my return to the village I signed my wizard to the guild (previously I had not enough gold) and asked for quest; the guild master offered me the task of finding a crystal ball (according to the official game guide – it is the second quest from this line). I have never received a quest about those ugly creature.
That sounds a little strange. Did you try to talk to the slime guy before attacking? I'm pretty sure he proceeds to attack you after the dialog anyway. Might have bugged out if he didn't. Another (and more likely) reason you weren't given this quest might be that you weren't even enrolled into the guild when you encountered him.
Generally, I think the game's structure is built around the assumption that you'll be going to the dungeon and back a lot more often than it actually happens in the game.
 

Strange Fellow

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I'm pretty sure he proceeds to attack you after the dialog anyway.
That's not right, he doesn't turn hostile unless provoked, and killing him isn't required in order to complete the guild quest. The fact that he did kill him without having received it be what messed things up.
 

V_K

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I'm pretty sure he proceeds to attack you after the dialog anyway.
That's not right, he doesn't turn hostile unless provoked, and killing him isn't required in order to complete the guild quest. The fact that he did kill him without having received it be what messed things up.
Really? The way I remember it, he says something about how he wants to make the party better, but for that they have to die first or something. Might have been that it was my playthrough that was bugged, of course.
 

Strange Fellow

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Could be I just missed the vital keyword, but in any case the quest is completable just by asking him what happened to him and then leaving him alone.
 

newtmonkey

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Wizards & Warriors is a true RPG game, so it stands to reason that it would be full of NPC characters as well as PC characters with HP points and MP points.
 

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