Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Pre-Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Lawntoilet]

irrelevant

They are irrelevant to the discussion we are leading,not in general.

I disagree because they are the rules of the game and the discussion we are leading is about the rules of the game, but whatever, fine we can set them aside.

snip.

That is fair,tho i don't like the idea of resources going for a TB system when the idea of the game is RTwP. Wouldn't have minded if it was added later on as DLC or mod to the game. As you said,there is apparently a TB mod for kingmaker,i don't really care about it or have a problem with it.
Anyway it is pointless to continue in this vain. I have raised my concerns and worries about the whole thing,and we won't know if they are well found or not,till the release date.

OK but again they literally said they based their TB system on the mod so it is minimal work for them.
We won't know for 100% whether or not your concerns are valid until the game is released (or at least the Alpha), true, but that's true of everything about the game. We can make inferences based on how things worked with Kingmaker though, which is that Owlcat released a buggy mess and were super responsive about getting patches and hotfixes out, and seem to have fixed most issues before starting making WotR, and also we can make inferences based on how the TB mod worked and affected the RTWP play of the game (it worked great and had 0 influence on the RTWP play of the game).
I don't wanna get the thread split or sent to retardo or anything so if it's all the same to you maybe we can leave it at that and both cross our fingers that the game's gonna be incline.

 

[LannTheStupid]

What's the point man, you are just getting shitty buttons for telling the Truth here

The only shitty button ever is a ban. Which Owlcat uses, but Codex does not.

 

[Pink Eye]

From the chan:
QUEEN WATCH
Stars achieved: 19
What we need: 3 achievements from the following list
KS Backers: 18,937/21,000
YT Subs: 12,600/20,000
Instagram Subs: 3,881/5,000
Twitter Followers: 10,200/12,000
Twitch Followers: 7,386/10,000

 

[Lacrymas]

Mod support was the most important of all of these social goals, the gilf is eh compared to that.

 

[LannTheStupid]

OK that's fair enough but that doesn't make the rules "irrelevant" when they're the basis for the whole game, same as D&D rules are the basis for the Infinity Engine games so those are relevant to discuss in relation to each other.

The rules are, indeed, irrelevant.

CRPG's use true and tried rule sets from tabletops and warp it into computer simulations. There can be good simulations, and there can be bad ones. The point is: it is never the simulation of a tabletop gaming session. Tabletop sessions are simulated in "Tabletop Simulator".

So when Owlcat claims that they "provide the best tabletop experience" they are lying. Probably not maliciously, but they're lying anyway. If they wanted to emulate tabletop experience they would have created another tabletop simulator, embedded discord chat and attached Pathfinder rulebooks in some convenient hypertext form. This would be "the best tabletop experience".

Instead, they created a computer game.

 

[Ontopoly]

Your spell range will either be in the same range as a move action and a single attack from the troll, or the troll will snuggle up to your mage and threaten your next move/action. You can, of course, prolong the inevitable by using a single 5feet movement but only for a single turn, because he can and will do the same on his next turn.

You should check the range on most spells. Pathfinder kingmaker nerfs the range a bit but even a medium ranged spell keeps you nice and safe. Close ranged spells too if they scale with your level.

The enemies still engaged with your front will have opportunity attacks on the front-character that moves back to save the mage.

I mentioned this but you chose to ignore it so that you could use it as an argument against me?

The fuck are you talking about a different game and system? I don't give a shit about DOS2 :D

I take every opportunity to shit talk DOS and most of the TB people like to use it as a glowing example but fair enough.

In real-time: If you move the mage away from the enemy that is trying to engage him/her, you can have a character that simultaneously is engaging the moving enemy; instigating at least one attack of opportunity every six seconds (infinitely until the enemy dies).

One attack of opportunity every 6 seconds is not that much. Especially since you think an enemy can walk up to the mage in one turn. It's either the enemy reaches my mage in one turn or takes long enough to get there that it dies from attack of opportunities. The fact that aoes exist like that is nice though because it works both ways. Sometimes it's worth the risk to take the extra aoes to get rid of a mage.

 

[mediocrepoet]

OK that's fair enough but that doesn't make the rules "irrelevant" when they're the basis for the whole game, same as D&D rules are the basis for the Infinity Engine games so those are relevant to discuss in relation to each other.

The rules are, indeed, irrelevant.

CRPG's use true and tried rule sets from tabletops and warp it into computer simulations. There can be good simulations, and there can be bad ones. The point is: it is never the simulation of a tabletop gaming session. Tabletop sessions are simulated in "Tabletop Simulator".

So when Owlcat claims that they "provide the best tabletop experience" they are lying. Probably not maliciously, but they're lying anyway. If they wanted to emulate tabletop experience they would have created another tabletop simulator, embedded discord chat and attached Pathfinder rulebooks in some convenient hypertext form. This would be "the best tabletop experience".

Instead, they created a computer game.

I know you're trolling, but holy shit. Lol

 

[Pink Eye]

Some 5k backer just pulled out.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Some 5k backer just pulled out.

It seems to be a trend, doesn't it?

 

[Pink Eye]

Spoiler

 

[InD_ImaginE]

From the chan:
QUEEN WATCH
Stars achieved: 19
What we need: 3 achievements from the following list
KS Backers: 18,937/21,000
YT Subs: 12,600/20,000
Instagram Subs: 3,881/5,000
Twitter Followers: 10,200/12,000
Twitch Followers: 7,386/10,000

At this rate the KS backers is a given so thats 1 down.

Twiiter follower should also be doable at this rate. Otherwise there is always GAS GAS GAS bot.

The rest I am not really sure. Twitch followers seems likely considering they keep streaming. Instagram seems a bit close as well but I don't have an account so I don't know how much 5000 is,

 

[Jezal_k23]

Some 5k backer just pulled out.

It seems to be a trend, doesn't it?

Why? TB mode? Would that really generate so much butthurt, an optional feature that they'll implement quickly? I'd have thought it was smart of them to try to appeal to the "but muh TB" crowd.

 

[Pink Eye]

Some 5k backer just pulled out.

It seems to be a trend, doesn't it?

Why? TB mode? Would that really generate so much butthurt, an optional feature that they'll implement quickly? I'd have thought it was smart of them to try to appeal to the "but muh TB" crowd.

No. It happens. It's normal for people to pull out for reasons. We're still going a million strong.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

HOLY SHIT! I CAN'T BELIEVE IT! MOUNTED MONKS! WE'RE GOING MOUNTED MONKS!

yeah I am going to ride one like a little bitch until he loves me.

 

[Pink Eye]

From the chan:
QUEEN WATCH
Stars achieved: 19
What we need: 3 achievements from the following list
KS Backers: 18,937/21,000
YT Subs: 12,600/20,000
Instagram Subs: 3,881/5,000
Twitter Followers: 10,200/12,000
Twitch Followers: 7,386/10,000

At this rate the KS backers is a given so thats 1 down.

Twiiter follower should also be doable at this rate. Otherwise there is always GAS GAS GAS bot.

The rest I am not really sure. Twitch followers seems likely considering they keep streaming. Instagram seems a bit close as well but I don't have an account so I don't know how much 5000 is,

Yeah, remember we still have 20 more days to go. So I think we're going to hit those social goals. We've already got the most important one; mod support.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Some 5k backer just pulled out.

It seems to be a trend, doesn't it?

Why? TB mode?

Of course not.

Such backers are... rare individuals, so they would have more personal agenda. It is rumored that the previous one backed out because Owlcat did not include the monument of Putin or something. I have a conspiracy theory that large Russian backers are trying to plug in some Russian political markers.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

HOLY SHIT! I CAN'T BELIEVE IT! MOUNTED MONKS! WE'RE GOING MOUNTED MONKS!

okay how tf you make a mounted punch charge attack?

if you are a real chad, you got a body lance, son.... you just think of of the Queen Galfrey and BAM! the 16" 3d6+3/+5 vs whamen Body Lance of Slaying appears... ready to do some work...ya heard?

 

[Shadenuat]

Turn-Based RPGs (good ones at least) don't throw shitton of enemies at player

surprisingly, it is in TB games where you are often outnumbered to like 5:1, compared to bg2 party on party fights

qwan

bah nobody cares about qwan now.

Qwan should have been in previous game, where it made sense for royal marriage to happen since you had a Kingdom.

Now people would be way more invested into a queen bitch demon romance ala Al Sedexus, or succubus or dark aerie with raven from Chains of Satinav

 

[LannTheStupid]

I want romance with a Kitsune compaion.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

Anyone who thinks that turn-based and RTwP are compatible in the same game needs to take another look at Arcanum. The two are mutually exclusive in my book, and it's not just because of trivial surface-level things like how long it takes to get through what you apparently feel are unnecessary encounters.

In my book, ALL encounters are necessary if you're attempting to pull off an authentic D&D adventure. There are no "trash mobs". There shouldn't be. If there are, you're doing something wrong.

But if you're going to commit to RTwP, then the existence of those kinds of encounters, ones that are nearly frivolous, are unavoidable. This is the nature of fast-paced, almost trivialized combat afforded by "real time". It's introducing a touch of Diablo into your RPG. It's sacrificing a relaxing yet challenging encounter while enjoying a cup of coffee to instead being a 13-year old kid's wet dream. It's decline. And that's what PF: KM suffers from. But it is what it is.

If, however, Owlcat were to commit to full turn-based, they'd have to scrutinize all encounters more. They'd have to carefully measure the amount of time needed to be put into each fight, weighed against completion time of the entire game. There's a huge difference in the thought needed to be put into encounter design when each fight could potentially take up an hour or more of the player's precious time. And that, to me, means a higher quality game overall.

Now, we can get into Debate of Real-Time with Pause vs. Turn-Based #2,788,002 if you want to, but this isn't the place for that. The previous game was RTwP and it worked well enough. Deciding to throw in TB now, probably over pressure applied by the fanbase, is a mistake, as much as I'd love to see it 100% turn-based myself instead.

Just like with Arcanum, this is going to be a mistake.

One time there was a man named Old Gus. He tried to fly by building wings he copied from watching birds fly. He fastened them on his back and climbed up on the bridge in the middle of town and jumped while everyone looked on. Old Gus plummeted to his death. But he did not die for nothing. Because now if anyone ever gets the notion that maybe humans might could or should fly, well we tell them the tale of Old Gus. People are not meant to fly, and they will never fly. Old Gus taught us that. Don't you forget Old Gus.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

I finished PK + dlc on Unfair with TB mod. I am a know fanboi of Arcanum and also played Deadfire with TB.

Not only is encounter design bad, but action economy is screwed, game becomes too easy + too long, enemy AI is terrible and combat lacks any interesting options to actually validate sequential actions (no counter spelling, no prepared actions, no cover, no elevation, positioning, no anything).

The only thing what TB is good for is to help pnp masters who DMd for 20 years who have problems with landing their fireball in RTwP and so "wizards suck".
Most of tactics involved to win anything was 1 spell to make enemies walk slowly to you and then have all party kill them 1 by 1; or use 1 high initiative caster to win any combat in 1-2 rounds, with all enemies ded/disabled instantly.

It's fun for novelty but if you want actual fun TB game might as well give Vince some cash for his colony shep game.

okay, when you played RTWP did the game suddenly do sequential casting and take positions above you and use height and prepare actions and take cover?

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

I agree. The should commit to one or the other.

Here's the thing though. This system is already designed to be TB, it's RTwP that requires blood and sweat to make work, while TB is ready out of the box. This is not like PoE2 where everything barely functioned in RTwP, even though it was designed to be such, and then a glued TB on top. The biggest problem of PF:KM TB mod, from what I've read, is the amount of trash mobs that RTwP tends to coalesce around itself for some unbeknownst to me reason. But trash is usually associated with a dumpster.

exactly. These games and modules are designed for turned based table top gaming. They are being changed to be RTwP and a bunch of trash mobs are being added to the games. Not the other way around.

 

[Lawntoilet]

Some 5k backer just pulled out.

Infinitron does this mean the fundraiser can aim for a backer-designed quest now?

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

I dont understand how you can accept dumb ai in rtwp but it suddenly becomes a problem in turn based?

He could do the reverse to himself. Blind himself, or hit himself in the head with a hammer every so often to make the game harder and more fun.

 

[Pink Eye]

Some 5k backer just pulled out.

Infinitron does this mean the fundraiser can aim for a backer-designed quest now?

Never mind, it wasn't the 5k backers that backed out. It is unavailable now, the 5k tier. Some one fucking backed out. We were at 128 but are now 123.