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1eyedking What makes Skyrim a worse game than Ultima 7?

V_K

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Yes, I'm kinda trolling but not quite.
Both have the same positives - highly interactive open worlds and NPC schedules.
Both have the same negatives - dumbed down character systems and braindead combat.
Yet one is praised as one of the best Golden Age RPGs and the other is... not. Why?
I guess U7 gets points for better main quest and characterization, but on the other hand that Renaissance fair setting...
 

octavius

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Yes, I'm kinda trolling but not quite.
Both have the same positives - highly interactive open worlds and NPC schedules.
Both have the same negatives - dumbed down character systems and braindead combat.
Yet one is praised as one of the best Golden Age RPGs and the other is... not. Why?

In Ultima 7 you could bake bread.
 

V_K

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Some things I find better in UVII compared to Skyrim:
- Schedules are more elaborate in UVII (the smith in Minoc is the most prominent).
- People react to more of your actions (if you light a lamp during the day, if you close their shutters, if you stand in their way, if you enter their room while they are sleeping,...).
- The whole interface is very organically implemented in the game world, not an artificial menu you have to access. (it's difficult to keep order in your bags, but I actually liked organizing it manually as even that made the experience more realistic.)
- A lot of crazy shit like being able to let the Avatar hump sheep in Serpent Isle and getting Iolos disgusted reaction. Ok that's not necessarily a real quality but it was still hilarious.

edit:
- The way UVII tells its stories and every NPC tells you his own view on the world, his own sorrows and hopes. By giving every NPC a singular existence in such a way the game made me really care for them.
- The drag and drop system, while being a bit fiddly sometimes, gives me the impression of having direct control over the game world and its objects.
- The design concept of the user's PC-screen as an actual "window" into Britannia was a very clever way to create an imaginative bridge between the real world and the gameworld.
 
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Codex Year of the Donut
Skyrim's NPC schedules are very bareboned, and a massive step back even compared to Oblivion.
NPC interactions in general simply got worse and it's obvious that it was no longer a priority.
 

Atrachasis

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I guess U7 gets points for better main quest and characterization

Well, that is quite a significant difference, isn't it?

If I had to sum up what I believe makes Ultima (4 to 7+SI, but especially from 6 onward) so special, it's the lovingly detailed characterization (mostly by way of writing) of every nook and cranny of the game world. The NPCs, in particular, feel like they actually have an existence beyond dispensing quests and/or getting killed by the PC. NPC schedules are just one contributor to that overall impression. Regions, towns, even dungeons all have a distinct flavour, background, and stories. Among mainstream titles from other franchises, to me, it's mostly Morrowind and Gothic that share these qualities with regard to world building (not necessarily character writing).

I've never tried Skyrim, but if it lies anywhere along the line of decline from Morrowind to Oblivion with its theme park approach to world building, that's all I need to know to justify my preference.
 

Nyast

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Yes, I'm kinda trolling but not quite.
Both have the same positives - highly interactive open worlds and NPC schedules.
Both have the same negatives - dumbed down character systems and braindead combat.
Yet one is praised as one of the best Golden Age RPGs and the other is... not. Why?
I guess U7 gets points for better main quest and characterization, but on the other hand that Renaissance fair setting...

One tries to appeal to the casual gamer by hanging a dragon attack stick right at the beginning of the game, full of excitement, imagine a DRAGON, how awesome and original, in what is essentially a corridor with cinematics. I can't wait to play the game ! ...

The other one has one of the best "tutorial" areas / starts of a game, ever, with a full investigation that involves you with the game, the lore, its characters, full dialogue options, and hooks you into a much bigger interesting story.

I'd say the beginning of the game is pretty representative of the difference between these two games.

However it is true that the combat of UVII is the worst aspect of the game, and even if Skyrim's isn't all that good, it's still overall better ( just for.. being interactive ). I almost consider UVII an excellent adventure game with RPG elements, while Skyrim is just a casual RPG.
 
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Thunar

Educated
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Dec 29, 2019
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Off the top:
- You HAD to keep track of what happened. This was critical because remembering who NPCs were, and what they did, was vital in finding out who might know more on a given topic. Without that, you couldn't progress the game. This is already a layer of depth much beyond skyrim's quest giving polygons.
- You also had to figure out who might have new keywords unlocked based on the new information you found. Everything inter related, adding to your immersion.
- NPCs had to be much better characterized because of this. You had to remember their name somehow.
- There was no GPS tracker, hell, in serpent isle you had an inaccurate map, you needed to actually explore shit.
- Puzzles weren't just based on putting the right claw in the right spot
- The combat was tolerable, you could just equip your party and forget about it. Skyrim's shitty combat forces you to actually pay attention to it, because if it wasn't like that, you'd realize the game offered little.
(As an aside, I'm also convinced that there's less combat in the Black Gate than in Torment.... I love PS:T but it had A LOT of shitty fights, at least U7 knew it was lacking and had to pace itself)
- Magic was amazing, spells became absolutely insane once you got to 5th/6th circle.
- The interactivity didn't simply consist in putting a bucket on an NPC's head. There were quests based on it. (the love trial with the golem in the silver seed expansion is one of the best examples)
- Lots of good writing for the story fags.
- A few interesting dungeons to make up for the shitty combat
- You could change nappies! Seriously!

There's a lot more. The design philosophy is completely different. U7's interactivity was only a side effect of its care and attention to detail. It was about exploration and discovery, making sense of a world that is distantly familiar, yet, ever changing. It was also a game that used everything it had in order to convey its complex themes.

Let's look at how you come to acquire a spell book in Serpent Isle. You spend nearly half of the game without spells, a good chunk of which is being spent on finding a way to convince the wizard elite to allow you one. During that segment, there are many revelations about the strange land you're exploring and how the things you hold dear are considered blasphemous. Intrigues are being set up, characters introduced,..
Now compare that to skyrim or oblivion's mage guild... There's a serious lack of coherence. None of them have anything to say about anything. You could also compare any bit of U7 to Skyrim's main quest, guilds or side content and come up with the same answer.
The quests in Skyrim are just experiences, mediocre slices of plainness, intersected with a few hits of dopamine to keep you engaged.

The interactivity in U7's not a cheap marketing gimmick inherited by older titles.
U7's interactivity is part of an entirely different way to create games/RPGs. Every single thing in the game is made with the objective of creating a world for the player to explore a wide array of themes with. Many subjects are explored by the series, there's a distinct wish to innovate, for the player to take something away from their experience.
Skyrim's interactivity on the other hand does not serve any purpose, nor is it supported by any relevant gameplay, it is more of a toy to keep the ADD hamster occupied.
 

Strange Fellow

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
One rather important thing is that U7 has a buttload of handplaced secrets. Hell, you can find an effing flying carpet. Where's Skyrim's magic carpet?

Also I enjoy the setting.
 

luj1

You're all shills
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The difference is that Ultima 7 felt like an actual product. Skyrim is literally half-working industrial algorithmic garbage that comes with the tools to fix it yourself.
 

ADL

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Difference is Ultima VII wasn't ever outdone by a previous or latter game in the series unlike Skyrim to Daggerfall and Morrowind. If Skyrim were the first game in the series, it'd be something that shows promise but now we have about twenty years of precedent to know that their trajectory is clearly declining, no thanks.
 

Tigranes

Arcane
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Messages
10,350
Thanks for your question, OP.

Ultima 7 has very good parts and very shitty parts.
Skyrim has a lot of mediocre parts and some shitty parts.
You decide what works for you.
 

Ysaye

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Some thoughts on why Ultima 7 is a better game than Skyrim:

  • Ultima 7 has NO quick travel, forcing you to travel through areas where you may be ambushed and actually have adventure;
  • Ultima 7 has an actual party that has banter with both you and amongst themselves, Skyrim has a hench-person and some summoning if you are a summoner that has nothing interesting to say.
  • Ultima 7's context (The Guardian's "Fellowship", Mages and magic going completely insane and unpredictable) is far more interesting than whatever Skyrim is about (Resurrection of a black dragon? I finished the game and I can'r remember what it was about)
  • Ultima 7 has humor and in jokes and doesn't take itself so seriously (Hoe of Destruction anyone?), but also has an arguably more creepy adversary. I can remember any (deliberate) Skyrim in game humor.
  • Ultima 7's NPC scheduling and lives as others have said
  • Ultima 7 has a diverse range of locations, whereas Skyrim is grey and white most of the time.
  • Ultima 7's spell system (whilst stupid from an actual usability) was detailed and complicated and there felt like there were a lot more spells.
Despite this, I understand the idea of comparison and I agree that the combat in both is pretty bad (Skyrim's is probably better in this regard). Skyrim is more immersive (apart from point 1) and no doubt has beautiful scenery in parts, and parts of the general Elder Scrolls mythology is probably better than say Forgotten Realms but ultimately it is a bit like comparing Taylor-Colderidge's Christabel to Poe's The Raven; one is just more potent and better than the other.
 

Yosharian

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I mean Skyrim isn't even a Bethesda game anymore, at this point. It's a game that was started by Bethesda then completed by modders. Except it's still not quite finished, but anyway, yeah.
 

luj1

You're all shills
Vatnik
Joined
Jan 2, 2016
Messages
13,327
Location
Eastern block
Yes, I'm kinda trolling but not quite.
Both have the same positives - highly interactive open worlds and NPC schedules.
Both have the same negatives - dumbed down character systems and braindead combat.
Yet one is praised as one of the best Golden Age RPGs and the other is... not. Why?
I guess U7 gets points for better main quest and characterization, but on the other hand that Renaissance fair setting...

Beyond what you mentioned, some people might just prefer the top-down perspective over first-person action. Shallow perhaps but legitimate.

Both of you are retarded.

In addition to being creatively deficient and artistically sterile in every way imaginable,

  • Skyrim was written in 32-bit FPU introduced with the Pentium 1 CPU
  • compiled without optimization flags for release build
  • poorly ported to PC
  • couldn't use 2 threads (modders fixed it)
  • has unfixable z-fighting
  • is a technical zombie, the budget went to marketing and Hollywood voice actors

Skyrim is literally the worst disgrace in the history of gaming (both technically and conceptually).
 
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Metronome

Learned
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Jan 2, 2020
Messages
277
Skyrim is a very casual game. Beyond that it's hard to see how Skyrim could be judged as inferior to Ultima 7. My guess is it is unliked (here) because it is both a casual game and very successful. It revolutionized the way people look at RPGs in a way that is more inclusive of casual players. If Skyrim was just a bad game people wouldn't hate it, they would ignore it. Many of the complaints here seem like trumped up charges to dissuade others from liking Skyrim. Because if Skyrim is accepted for it's merits, then casual design choices may be accepted along with that.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
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Codex Year of the Donut
FPU code, not the FPU processor you debilitated cretin.
"FPU code" means nothing. Are you referring to x87 instructions? What makes you think they actually programmed in assembly rather than the compiler simply emitting x87 instructions?
The latest version of GCC defaults to emitting x87 instructions when targeting x86-32(it's in the documentation) for various compatibility/legacy reasons, I doubt msvc is any different(beyond being an all around worse optimizing compiler.)
 

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