Turn-based blobber combat encounter design: preferences?

[Ysaye]

I was wondering what preferences people had in this regard? Some of the aspects I with respect to each of the types I could think of:

• Random encounters (Whilst traversing the map a random encounter may trigger upon movement - eg. Wizardry and most of it's clones) - Keeps the player experience unique, adds a greater level of uncertainty than the other two approaches when traversing the dungeon and can keep backtracking interesting but is criticised for being too mechanical, not realistic (particularly with respect to the map traversal element) and just "too random" and not repeatable enough?; or
• Fixed encounters (Encounters only trigger at certain spots or on certain actions eg. Paper Sorcerer) - Greater certainty over when battles are going to occur and potentially easier strategically on the player (which may be seen as a good or bad thing), can allow the attention to be drawn to non-battle activities between encounters. However, the uniqueness of the experience of each player is reduced however and it is easier to create munchkin guides. Also (depending on whether the fixed encounter regenerate) limits the opportunities to grind up experience (again this may be a good or bad thing) or
• Roaming encounters (Where there are enemies roaming in the map that can be potentially avoided eg. Bards Tale 4, Tales of the Forsaken Land) - Can represent a halfway balance between both of the above, whilst having the most "real" interactions within the dungeon. Can still provide a certain amount of randomness (eg. provision of loot and enemy types). Arguably adds a certain "action" skill element in the avoidance of combat if they move in real time (alternatively you could have them move one square for each you move like FOEs in Etrian Odyssey), also creates a much greater level of certainty over the traversal of a dungeon compared to random encounters, making backtracking arguably more tedious affairs.

Obviously some games include a combination of one or more of the above - are there any other approaches? And which is your preference, and why?

 

[luj1]

Grimoire my dude. You can set encounter frequency, even change it on the fly.

 

[CryptRat]

Roaming encounters (Where there are enemies roaming in the map that can be potentially avoided

I think roaming encounters which are visible on the map are boring, it ruins the purpose of random encounters that you have to react to. Instead give the player ways which are linked with stats to avoid hard encounters like fleeing, negotiation, bribery, ... and ways to avoid easy encounters like a threatening system, or you can simply make them winnable very fast which is not an hard task in a turn-based blobber, or encounter rate can also decrease as you kill monsters in a location (because you make it so or because there's a fixed number of roamming, but invisible, encounters).

Regarding randomly triggered encounters, there are two things I like : first, a randomly triggered encounter can't block you so some encounters must be too hard for your current level, I love games when I have to flee sometimes, apprehend the different monsters of new locations and deciding when to flee. I like the beginning of the first The Bard's Tale, you wouldn't defeat 8 barbarians and I'm not even talking about zombies. Secondly a randomly triggered encounter, as the name says, can't be triggered at will by simply reloading your game, and I love when defeating the orcs or black knights in the next location gives you a new set of armors for all your warrior characters, and if this kind of encounter is randomly triggered it gives an additional reason to use your bombs and other resources to win it.

I think it is legit to criticize your average japanese blobber encounters, the encounter rate may be to high, and if it's fighting 3 boars then 3 ants then 3 boars again every three steps it's boring, uncertain or not, and the loot system may encourage grinding the same encounter, I'm much more for either totally random encounters but then which can be very disparate with monster numbers which may go very high and you may have to flee or some ~10 handcrafted, randomly triggered encounters for a location that can't be triggered again when won and then give a real reward. Also it's very rare but I think I prefer a gameplay loop where you simply would have to do each dungeon in one time without dying and you can't leave the dungeon rather than the usual go back and fourth several time from town to the place you previously reached. Besides not every game is like the first Final Fantasy or Megami Tensei when excellent balance and fairly decent freedom regarding party building and customization arguably make up for these flaws. Random encounters does not have to mean fighting the same enemies 1,000,000 times and retarded low %-based drop with only single item rewards or whatever. Good boss battles are the most fun encounters but I like some randomly triggered encounters when they're well thought.

 

[thesecret1]

Roaming or fixed encounters for me. Absolutely loathe random ones. Fighting a random trashmob every ten steps is the opposite of fun, especially with turn-based combat. If the fight is not in some way interesting, it should not be in the game at all, and randomly encountered trash never is – where's the fun in fighting Disposable Grunt #653? You say that it makes backtracking fun. In reality, it makes backtracking into suffering, as it means I'll have to spend half an hour fighting those generic bags of HP yet again. Give me some handcrafted content, something where every encounter is new and fun and not a colossal waste of time.

 

[e-mailio estevez]

Roaming encounters (Where there are enemies roaming in the map that can be potentially avoided

I think roaming encounters which are visible on the map are boring, it ruins the purpose of random encounters that you have to react to.

Couldn't agree more- this is probably my biggest problem with Dragon Quest 11 over its predecessors. Enemies are braindead on the map and hardly pursue you- making every battle more or less voluntary. I tried to combat this by rolling a dice every time I saw an enemy on the map to decide if I'd have to fight them or not- which I think would've worked- if not for the fact that you regain all of your HP and MP upon level up and even trying to simulate resource scarcity was basically a futile effort.

Compare that to the pyramid in DQ3, where there isn't even a boss at the end, just a slog to the bottom of a crypt with consistently difficult random encounters. When you get to the bottom and grab your macguffin you're cursed, I think it removed your spellcasting ability, and you then the challenge becomes fighting your way out of the dungeon. It was probably one of the most tense and memorable dungeons I've ever played in an RPG, all thanks to random encounters and really tough battle of attrition.

I get that random encounters can be annoying if the enemies are piss easy and you can mash A through every encounter, but when done right I really don't see them as a problem.

 

[Maxwell's Demon]

Old games like Wizardry had the excuse of hardware limitations for random encounters, but there's really no excuse for games padding out their playtime with slot-machine mechanics now.

 

[Removal]

Set number of encounters per area/region. So floor X would have a certain number of encounters with a few fixed encounters tossed in
As well as options to either avoid or bypass encounters.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Combination of the above is the best, really. Even the original final fantasy did this; you triggered random encounters in the overworld and in the dungeon, however, certain tiles in the dungeon were (invisible) guaranteed encounters, generally more dangerous than the random ones. That way you can ensure that the player doesn't get randomly fucked or a free pass through the dungeon due to what he encounters, you can have a few hard encounters and decent rewards right afterwards mixed in with easier encounters that ramp up the attrition more slowly and make it easier to escape the dungeon than dive deeper. Shining in the Darkness had something like this too, though it was a bit more random (walking over a puddle had say a 50/50 chance of triggering a really nasty fight vs a water elemental) and it was structured such that unlike most games, you never knew when you were about to get into a boss fight. The first boss you fought was just a huge crab that appeared at a particular corner with no warning. Lots of other bosses worked the same way, which was much scarier than finding one after going through 3 sets of massive doors and a hallway of statues and torches.

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

In some cases (e.g. non-blobber combat) you can mix fixed and random encounters together -- basically, each encounter has fixed placement but it's triggered randomly based on the encounter chance (can be assigned to the trigger itself or the global value that gets modified by player movement or actions). Enemy types can be either assigned per encounter or drawn from a large pool assigned to this particular trigger. The former is predictable but can work for rare special encounters, while the latter is less predictable but requires picking the enemy types carefully -- normally you want as many as possible, but make sure these types complement each other in one way or another to keep things interesting.

If you want to avoid repetition while traversing back and forth on the same path, you can simply disable each trigger once it's done with its purpose to avoid triggering the same encounter on the same tile over and over. This can also give the player a nice sense of 'clearing' a part of the dungeon if they're paying attention, but this only works if the game is designed around a finite number of encounters.

Ideally, I'd add ways to reduce or increase the encounter rate, but make it part of the game rather than an option in the settings.

Also, all 3 methods listed are valid, but it depends on game design on how it will play out. Random encounters against a large variety of enemies are fun while fighting the same 2 enemy types for 3 hours gets boring very fast. Fixed encounters are fun in small dosages, but if there are too many of them, they get predictable pretty fast, and the same applies to roaming encounters. A mix of three would actually be pretty interesting to try.

 

[Maxwell's Demon]

zwanzig_zwoelf Since you're designing games, this might be relevant to your interests. The reward from random encounters comes from seeing new encounters, and is an example of a variable ratio schedule, just like a slot machine.

 

[Puukko]

Random encounters with an encounter chance indicator and uncommon/fairly expensive tools for reducing that chance/preventing low level encounters.

 

[Grauken]

Random + fixed encounters like in Wizardry games is great

Labyrinth of Refrain has random roaming encounters per aera (individual rooms, hallways, etc.) per map (you can see the encounters on the map and even when walking around and avoid them, but they follow you if you catch their attention), which I thought was a pretty incline system

Another system which I've seen is random encounters with a fixed number of encounters per map, or with encounters stopping once you've out leveled the current enemy type on the map, which I'm not a big fan of, as it feels too restrictive. If people want to stomp on million 1xp enemies, let them

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I think roaming encounters which are visible on the map are boring, it ruins the purpose of random encounters that you have to react to.

Then have them hide and ambush the player.
random encounters are a bandaid for developer laziness.

 

[Siveon]

I recall Etrian Odyssey having all three. Roaming, fixed and random encounters.

 

[Matador]

Fixed ones protecting loot and unique quest items like keys, and small amount of random ones. That keep you at your toes without hampering exploration.

Exactly what you find at Wizardry 1-3 SNES remakes, and Elminage Gothic.

The composition of the encounters, semi-random, with some smartly crafted groups of enemies. That way you can tune difficulty and affect the encounters while giving a certain amount of variety in every area.

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

zwanzig_zwoelf Since you're designing games, this might be relevant to your interests. The reward from random encounters comes from seeing new encounters, and is an example of a variable ratio schedule, just like a slot machine.

Thanks, it's an interesting read, but I doubt it'll be useful to me since I'm not interested in designing skinner boxes that pat the player on the back on every turn.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Random + fixed encounters like in Wizardry games is great

Labyrinth of Refrain has random roaming encounters per aera (individual rooms, hallways, etc.) per map (you can see the encounters on the map and even when walking around and avoid them, but they follow you if you catch their attention), which I thought was a pretty incline system

Another system which I've seen is random encounters with a fixed number of encounters per map, or with encounters stopping once you've out leveled the current enemy type on the map, which I'm not a big fan of, as it feels too restrictive. If people want to stomp on million 1xp enemies, let them

Some old games allowed resets of combat areas or quests (generally old SSI games like say Phantasie serues, Wizard Crown Series, Realms of Darkness). I suppose it was no surprise Pool of Radiance had encounter exhaustion except you could remove every player and start a fresh game and add old players.

I don't mind that, difficulty setting, and hell; why not a toggle to set random encounters to a finite number to infinite. Maybe set frequency as well. In some ways i like a lot of optional toggles but they seem mostly ised for initial random generation of the world and not during gameplay (aka Dungeon Hack).

 

[baud]

Another system which I've seen is random encounters with a fixed number of encounters per map, or with encounters stopping once you've out leveled the current enemy type on the map, which I'm not a big fan of, as it feels too restrictive. If people want to stomp on million 1xp enemies, let them

One solution for this issue is just provide a way to start a fight. Could be just a button to get a random encounter or a way to recharge the encounters of an area.

 

[Ysaye]

Another system which I've seen is random encounters with a fixed number of encounters per map, or with encounters stopping once you've out leveled the current enemy type on the map, which I'm not a big fan of, as it feels too restrictive. If people want to stomp on million 1xp enemies, let them

One solution for this issue is just provide a way to start a fight. Could be just a button to get a random encounter or a way to recharge the encounters of an area.

Interesting idea, except that one of the criticisms of random encounters is that they are too incoherent, which would inevitably be the response to this idea as well. Better to have a Gladiator arena / fight club as part of town, at least then there is some coherent narrative around it.

I don't know, I read the criticisms about random encounters but (as others have said) so long as they are not too regular and feature a good range of different enemies (rather than being peppered with the same enemy types all the time) I think there are still merits in that system for dungeon crawlers; I don't get the slot machine analogy, and they actively combat the player that is just going to follow a guide. Fixed encounters only can be good but I am just concerned about them making it feel too predictable, and whilst visually roaming encounters are attractive, from a gameplay perspective unless they are always going to get at you, the point that CryptRat makes stands.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

Fixed ones protecting loot and unique quest items like keys, and small amount of random ones. That keep you at your toes without hampering exploration.

Exactly what you find at Wizardry 1-3 SNES remakes, and Elminage Gothic.

The composition of the encounters, semi-random, with some smartly crafted groups of enemies. That way you can tune difficulty and affect the encounters while giving a certain amount of variety in every area.

It's pretty amazing that almost every time someone finds that JRPGs are doing something wrong and wonders how to improve it, the solution literally is to look at what a 40 years-old game was doing.

 

[thesecret1]

With roaming encounters, I liked how the Labyrinth of Refrain did them. Basically, you had two types: elites and regulars. Regulars were just the usual trashmobs, while elites offered either unique encounters or a very powerful enemy type. The level layout and encounter density was such that it was usually impossible to avoid all the encounters (especially since upon spotting you, the regulars would start pursuing you), but there usually was a way to maneuver/sneak around the elites if you didn't want to fight them. If you decided to return to the level much later on, the fact you were so much more powerful then caused the roamers to run away from you.

 

[Ysaye]

With roaming encounters, I liked how the Labyrinth of Refrain did them. Basically, you had two types: elites and regulars. Regulars were just the usual trashmobs, while elites offered either unique encounters or a very powerful enemy type. The level layout and encounter density was such that it was usually impossible to avoid all the encounters (especially since upon spotting you, the regulars would start pursuing you), but there usually was a way to maneuver/sneak around the elites if you didn't want to fight them. If you decided to return to the level much later on, the fact you were so much more powerful then caused the roamers to run away from you.

I haven't played Refrain, but is this basically like Etrian Odyssey where the FOEs are the equivalent of the Elites?

 

[Grauken]

Refrain had a couple of approaches. Normal randos, bosses of various kinds, one level had mostly randos you could beat at your normal level with certain parts of the level patrolled by massive pandas who in the beginning could one-shot you. The first level had an area (after you knocked down a few walls) with enemies that were immune to everything you could throw at them, you needed to level up significantly to do any damage to them.

Also, when you collected too much of a certain resource (forgot the name), the game switched on monster type rando encounters that could one-shot kill you most of the time

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Great... Panda Natzi Dictatorship.

 

[Grauken]

Great... Panda Natzi Dictatorship.