Incline Turn-based blobber combat

[ryz]

Hello codexians,

I'm currently developing a old-school blobber with the following qualities:

• Party-based: Up to six characters in a party.
• Class-based: Characters have clear roles (which are malleable to an extend).
  
• Grid-based Exploration: Inside the dungeon the player moves in cardinal directions on a grid (tiles).
  
• Random Encounters: There's a random chance of encountering enemies each turn/move. Some are fixed (happen on specific tiles), like (mini-)bosses and gatekeeper fights.
  
• Turn-based Combat: Combat is menu- and turn-based.

As you can see, it's akin to the old Wizardry titles - and specifically NOT real-time blobbers (e.g. Dungeon Master or Legend of Grimrock) - I'm also taking some cues from more modern Japanese installments, e.g. Wizardry: Labyrinth of Lost Souls, Etrian Odyssey and a few more, mostly pacing though.

Now, I'm currently designing the combat system and would be happy to discuss the merits and downsides of turn-based combat. There's been a few good threads here already, but I'd like to necro the discussion in 2020: What are you looking for in combat of a turn-based blobber?

I feel like many old blobbers (or RPGs in general) have great systems, but suffer from atrocious UX, UI or pacing issues - I usually endure them but honestly often it's not fun at all. Very often I think "man, this game would be 10/10 if it wouldn't be so retarded to control". This is actually one of my main issues.

A few aspects which I've identified are:

• Enough Options/Headspace: Ideally each encounter (on an even power level) is interesting and allows for many play-styles and options each turn. Here's an exmaple: I want items to be multifunctional, e.g. character can use a "fire potion" on himself or a party member to increase fire resistance or throw it at an enemy to deal fire damage - each option would take a turn.
  
• War of Attrition: Someone here coined it as "bungee-jumping" - the party makes their way into the dungeon, resources slowly dwindling - the player must know when there's a point of no return and plan his exit/backtrack accordingly.
  
• Fast paced: Combat should be fast (if the player wants it to), meaning animations, transitions, turns, etc. There's nothing more mind-numbing for me than watching animations to finish for the 2423th time in 30 second long trivial battles while holding the A button. I want combat to be BLAZING FAST if there's no interesting decisions to be made (e.g. when the party is vastly over-leveled, etc.), possibly even auto-resolving. Players can pause/stop at any time to think as long as they desire, of course.

These are just a few to keep the discussion going. There's many, many options and possible mechanics to include.

What do you think is important for turn-based combat? What is a no-go? Do you think the system should innovate or just execute combat of classics in a smooth way? There's a lot to think about and I'd like to hear people's opinions!

 

[Glop_dweller]

Check out Thunderscape on GOG.
gog.com/game/thunderscape/

If you are doing grid based (great!); make it matter. Have the maps truly correspond to to a common grid, above and below; pits on the floor of level one mean pits on the ceilings of whatever levels they pass through underneath (if not only level 2). A BIG part of the grid is to abstract the layout; allowing for practical mapping, step counting (for accurate travel distance), and logical estimation of the floorplan (for detecting hidden areas, and anomalies). It's pointless if the grid is simply there for cosmetic, rather than gameplay reasons.

What do you think is important for turn-based combat? What is a no-go?

No 'continuous turn'; eg Fallout Tactics default combat.

I recommend also examining Druidstone (also on GoG) for the combat design. The PCs develop tactical abilities as they improve, and these abilities often compliment the abilities of other characters, as well as change up the rules now and then, for a varied experience. Even the most mundane, or seemingly limited abilities can have surprising applications during the battles.

Also look at Realms of Arkania [GoG again ]. An EXCELLENT FPP Blobber trilogy. It has turn based combat, but that part is isometric, and not why I mention it. I mention it for the FPP navigation, and NPC services, and conversation system; also the PC skill application.

For instance, the party can split up into separate groups; this allows for simultaneous adventure in different locations, and for more complex puzzles. The way the party interacts with NPCs and merchant/businesses allows for skill checks and timed events. PCs visiting a tavern can not just talk & drink, but pickpocket the patrons, or use various performance skills to sing and dance for tips—or both. PCs can commission [Blacksmith] work and return for it later, when it's completed.

Overland travel is notable in these games as well.

 

[Lady_Error]

What do you think is important for turn-based combat? What is a no-go? Do you think the system should innovate or just execute combat of classics in a smooth way? There's a lot to think about and I'd like to hear people's opinions!

Personally, I like the Wizardry 6/7 and Grimoire style combat in blobbers. That is, no backtracking to the tavern or things like that.

There definitely needs to be enough variation in the attack options, weapons, racial attacks and magic to make combat tactics count. Front row and back row are also important. Or if you're feeling ambitious, maybe even a positioning system.

The ability to speed up easy combat encounters, eg. by pressing Enter, is definitely another thing. Technically, I am talking about phased-combat like in Wizardry 1-7, which is a bit different than turn-based where each character and each enemy get their own turn. Phased combat is definitely faster, especially if you include an option to remember the combat selections from the previous turn, like Grimoire does.

 

[Dorateen]

Something else to think about. Will characters die when they reach 0 health (Wizardry) or will you use some kind of knock-out/unconscious mechanic, leaving such characters vulnerable to death only by subsequent attacks or massive amounts of damage (Might & Magic). If you do allow characters to be rendered unconscious, that opens up the option for tactical healing and formation adjustment mid-battle. On a related note, is death permanent? If so, you will need to include a way for a player to generate more characters once the game is in progress, for replacement. Or will you feature a means to revive dead characters?

 

[Ysaye]

War of Attrition / bungee jumping is important for many players of this type of game; "backtracking" or (if you don't like this) "holding out" to safety is an important mechanical component to a blobber; and it works well where there are random encounters.

I think it is nice to see innovation in combat if possible, though I don't mind conventional Wizardry battles. Throwing in maybe an odd ball idea that I have been thinking about relating to point 3 that you might want to explore: why not have some form of limitation on the number of turns / phases that can occur? If (for example) you are limited to making all your choices in say three turns, then every decision made by the player about each character's action will inevitably be a lot more important. The question then is what happens if the battle hasn't provided a winner by that point? What is fair? Or can you make it such that there must be a winner by that point?

Other more conventional options to "speed up" combat:

• Wrap multiple character's actions up into more powerful "group actions" that can be acquired or found or trained - an example of this short of thing is the Allied Actions in Wizardry: Tales of the Forsaken Land;
• Have a "hit" or "break" meter that, once filled up to a certain point (by either counting damage done by your party, and/or to you by the enemy), can be used to unleash much much more powerful attacks or special skills that can finish battles much earlier. Experience Inc. Dungeon crawlers almost always have a form of this (Examples: Stranger of Sword City, Operation Abyss and Operation Babel);
• As Lady Error said, just have a button that speeds up the animations;
• Have "macros" that allow the same actions on each character to be repeated again; or
• Autocombat (as you have suggested).

 

[Lady_Error]

War of Attrition / bungee jumping is important for many players of this type of game; "backtracking" or (if you don't like this) "holding out" to safety is an important mechanical component to a blobber; and it works well where there are random encounters

I think a much better implementation of this is to simply have areas or dungeons where you cannot rest. I remember fondly the Eye of the Beholder 2 level where you could not rest due to nightmares and you also couldn't go back the way you entered.

Though a simpler way would be to simply not allow resting in dangerous areas, so that backtracking to safety becomes necessary.

Are any of the suggestions posted here useful to you at all, ryz?

 

[Fishy]

I'd echo the idea of "macros" above. In that genre, I liked the MM3/Xeen combat. Simple one action per character/monster in initiative order, and not a great range either (attack, defend, cast, use item), but the sweet sweet part was setting up the quick-action for that character. From there, you could hit the quick action shortcut (probably Q) to do this one. For simple combats, that allowed super quick resolution as you just left the Q key pressed and the rounds would blitz through. The games would definitely have been far more tedious without this as it allowed basic setups like all your fighters attacking and your casters casting zero-gem spells or defending.

In fact, keyboard shortcuts by themselves are a great way to allow players to play faster. Easier to hit A/A/A/D for three characters attacking and one defending than having to move the mouse across buttons. Not a big deal for a few fights, but if your game has random combat all the time and overleveled encounters, every little will help.

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

Dinosaur has a pretty cool take on the rest mechanic -- you can rest anywhere to recover a fraction of your health, but you risk getting ambushed by enemies every time you do it.

The sweet part is: the chance of being ambushed depends on your surroundings. If you rest in an open area, it's like begging the monsters to get a drop on you. If you cling to a wall or hide in a corner, the chance is somewhat lower, while resting in a dead end (covered by walls from 3 sides) makes the chance of getting ambushed almost non-existent.

 

[Latro]

I really enjoyed the Row combat Elminage: Gothic had, it allowed for some situations that one wouldn't normally encounter in most blobbers, maybe take a look at it?

 

[Lady_Error]

Dinosaur has a pretty cool take on the rest mechanic -- you can rest anywhere to recover a fraction of your health, but you risk getting ambushed by enemies every time you do it.

Isn't the risk of getting ambushed while resting standard in blobbers like Wizardry or even non-blobbers like Realms of Arkania?

Though the reduction of ambush frequency based on the number of walls around you is a great idea.

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

Dinosaur has a pretty cool take on the rest mechanic -- you can rest anywhere to recover a fraction of your health, but you risk getting ambushed by enemies every time you do it.

Isn't the risk of getting ambushed while resting standard in blobbers like Wizardry or even non-blobbers like Realms of Arkania?

Though the reduction of ambush frequency based on the number of walls around you is a great idea.

Had to make sure I'm getting my point across.

 

[Darth Canoli]

What do you think is important for turn-based combat? What is a no-go? Do you think the system should innovate or just execute combat of classics in a smooth way? There's a lot to think about and I'd like to hear people's opinions!

Just go for something well charted first and add some slight improvements if you must.
UI should reflect the current year, for instance, sound effects too.
Also, i consider graphics that doesn't make me blind a plus.

If you feel ambitious, you could try to expand your world, create complex quests with multiple resolutions and C&C.

When your game is released and successful and you feel like a master of your trade, you can get into something bolder.

As for me, i like Wizardry 6, 7 & 8 as well as Might & Magic 3 to 5 systems better (M&M 6-8 for the system and SE, MM3-5 for the graphics), what would be great is a M&M III engine like game with good SE and music and a complex world with nice looking M&M 3 graphics and even better, an evolution of the character development leaning toward the wizardry one (though, MM6-8 mastery/skills system is quite good)

 

[V_K]

Dinosaur has a pretty cool take on the rest mechanic

What's that? Googling "dinosaur rpg" doesn't exactly yield much.

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

Dinosaur has a pretty cool take on the rest mechanic

What's that? Googling "dinosaur rpg" doesn't exactly yield much.

A fast-paced dungeon crawler by Nihon Falcom with nice graphics and badass music.

It also has a pretty good remake.

 

[Ysaye]

Dinosaur has a pretty cool take on the rest mechanic

What's that? Googling "dinosaur rpg" doesn't exactly yield much.

Put "Falcom Dinosaur" will work.

Z_Zwoelf, I know you said you have played this, but as far as I can see you certainly can't buy the PC Resurrection version anymore - where did you get it from, or did you play the original?

I have watched some you-tube videos and indeed I too love how fast the combat is - would be good to play, even if n Japanese....

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

Z_Zwoelf, I know you said you have played this, but as far as I can see you certainly can't buy the PC Resurrection version anymore - where did you get it from, or did you play the original?

A friend of a friend of my uncle's coworker's girl happened to have a copy he was willing to lend me for research purposes a long time ago.

I think I saw a copy or two on Ebay a while ago, but they were expensive as fuck.

 

[Ysaye]

Z_Zwoelf, I know you said you have played this, but as far as I can see you certainly can't buy the PC Resurrection version anymore - where did you get it from, or did you play the original?

A friend of a friend of my uncle's coworker's girl happened to have a copy he was willing to lend me for research purposes a long time ago.

I think I saw a copy or two on Ebay a while ago, but they were expensive as fuck.

Hahaha thanks - I only saw the music CDs on ebay (which would be worth getting in themselves because some of it is quite memorable) - but will keep my eyes peeled for one nevertheless if you reckon they are there.

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

Z_Zwoelf, I know you said you have played this, but as far as I can see you certainly can't buy the PC Resurrection version anymore - where did you get it from, or did you play the original?

A friend of a friend of my uncle's coworker's girl happened to have a copy he was willing to lend me for research purposes a long time ago.

I think I saw a copy or two on Ebay a while ago, but they were expensive as fuck.

Hahaha thanks - I only saw the music CDs on ebay (which would be worth getting in themselves because some of it is quite memorable) - but will keep my eyes peeled for one nevertheless if you reckon they are there.

You're in luck, I've managed to find one listing. But bear in mind that certain events will require looking up a walkthrough to learn how to proceed (unless you speak Japanese, that is).

 

[Fishy]

When you casually powerstance in Brume Tower on your endgame STR build and take off the armour to try and still mid-roll.

 

[Ysaye]

Z_Zwoelf, I know you said you have played this, but as far as I can see you certainly can't buy the PC Resurrection version anymore - where did you get it from, or did you play the original?

A friend of a friend of my uncle's coworker's girl happened to have a copy he was willing to lend me for research purposes a long time ago.

I think I saw a copy or two on Ebay a while ago, but they were expensive as fuck.

Hahaha thanks - I only saw the music CDs on ebay (which would be worth getting in themselves because some of it is quite memorable) - but will keep my eyes peeled for one nevertheless if you reckon they are there.

You're in luck, I've managed to find one listing. But bear in mind that certain events will require looking up a walkthrough to learn how to proceed (unless you speak Japanese, that is).

Hahahah! - thanks for spotting that! Wow that is expensive with the exchange rate! (although not as expensive as Shining the Holy Ark - that has to be the most expensive blobber out there right now!)

Oh well - I have added to my collection. I will need to get my old laptop out though with a CD ROM drive. Thanks again!

 

[DraQ]

One thing regarding grid blobbers (I prefer continuous blobbers myself) - has anyone ever considered a semi-grid blobber? One where you have freelook and continuous movement outside of combat but where party's position and orientation would actually be mapped to grid (with appropriate UI indicators). On start of combat party would smoothly center on their tile and mutual murder would begin.
That looks like it would be a nice UX improvement and easy way to do it with modern engines, plus it would be easy to make it a toggle for irreformable oldschool orthodoxy since the mechanics itself would be grid based anyway.

What are you looking for in combat of a turn-based blobber?

Something that makes me load it if I'm in the blobber mood as opposed to loading Wizardry8 once again.
I'm not going to come up with your game idea for you.
Make it unique in an interesting way.
Find a way to justify the existence of your game specifically.

e.g. character can use a "fire potion" on himself or a party member to increase fire resistance or throw it at an enemy to deal fire damage

Options are good (and don't forget having options for melee attackers), but your example seems nonsensical and confusing. A thrown fire potion is effectively a magical molotov. Would you pour molotov over yourself to protect you from fire?

Some mechanical ideas I would like to see not specifically in a TB blobber, but in a TB RPG or even an RPG in general:

• Multi-turn casting. Character (PC or NPC) starts casting identifiable (might require skill) spell, but will take more than one turn and can be interrupted. Allows for much more powerful magic and at the same time makes it harder to instanuke or be instanuked.
• Less focus on raw damage output. More focus on state and special qualities of weapons and actions. A weapon, even a dagger, is designed to effectively kill a fellow humanoid or similarly sized living (and non-plant or jelly) target. Uninterrupted attack with such weapon should have a good chance to simply kill or severely wound/incapacitate.
• Defence rolls rather than attack rolls for basic melee attacks. Opposed rolls seem like a good idea.
• Friendly fire.
• Formation management, flanking.
• Environment dependent mechanics.
• Weird races introducing highly specific mechanics.
• Party-on-party combat.
• Individualized enemies.
• Party splitting.
• Movement in combat.

Do you think the system should innovate

That's a shitty question to ask. You don't innovate for the sake of being able to say you're innovating. That's not innovation, that's just being randumb.
You innovate because you have come up with a novel idea that was not explored or novel way or doing something that is in some ways better than traditional ones. Yes, innovating is hard.

 

[V_K]

has anyone ever considered a semi-grid blobber? One where you have freelook and continuous movement outside of combat but where party's position and orientation would actually be mapped to grid (with appropriate UI indicators). On start of combat party would smoothly center on their tile and mutual murder would begin.
That looks like it would be a nice UX improvement and easy way to do it with modern engines, plus it would be easy to make it a toggle for irreformable oldschool orthodoxy since the mechanics itself would be grid based anyway.

But what would the point of that be? The greatest boon of grid-based movement is that it makes exploring a 3D environment much easier and faster. The grid doesn't really have much bearing on blobber combat.

 

[DraQ]

But what would the point of that be?

Being easier on the fucking eyes.
I am all for making it optional because snappy, instant movement and rotations are a valid preference if the underlying mechanics doesn't care either way, but it's hardly better for everyone.
Of course it's a moot point unless the game uses 3D engine and doesn't use it to fake 2D art style.

 

[Ysaye]

But what would the point of that be?

Being easier on the fucking eyes.
I am all for making it optional because snappy, instant movement and rotations are a valid preference if the underlying mechanics doesn't care either way, but it's hardly better for everyone.
Of course it's a moot point unless the game uses 3D engine and doesn't use it to fake 2D art style.

Tales of the Forsaken Land is pretty much a semi-grid, where everything is gridlocked but movement is continuous and many of the grid points are on curves, stairs etc.

But as V_K says , this has no bearing on combat, which is what this thread is about.....

 

[V_K]

But what would the point of that be?

Being easier on the fucking eyes.
I am all for making it optional because snappy, instant movement and rotations are a valid preference if the underlying mechanics doesn't care either way, but it's hardly better for everyone.
Of course it's a moot point unless the game uses 3D engine and doesn't use it to fake 2D art style.

No, I mean, I understand the preference for continuous movement, even though personally I don't share it. What I don't get is why would you want a grid for combat in a continuous-movement blobber?