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Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Pre-Release Thread [EARLY ACCESS RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
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17,948
Pathfinder: Wrath
You can go the WH40k: Mechanicus route and make the enemies become stronger the more you dilly-dally.
 

InD_ImaginE

Arcane
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Messages
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Pathfinder: Wrath
The way I see things, a RT fan wants to apply tactics under duress and to react directly to the AIs moves as they are occuring while a TB fan wants to apply his strategic thinking against the AI in a game of planned attacks and counterattacks. There is of course some level of strategy required in RT games, just as there can be tactics under duress in TB (i.e. timers such as those in chess tournaments), but those are only byproducts of the way in which the system is implemented and shouldn't work in the detriment of it.

The problem is there is no strategic thinking in just normalTB implementation. For TB to work, you have to have duress, especially time, or in case of old X-COM throwing stupidly high odds in enemy favor and incredible flavor of RNG. Of course, we are talking people with at least basic understanding of system. The moment the player does, in case of RPG, there is no strategy involved in TB as the player has an overwhelming advantage in any given situation. The combat becomes less strategic and more build focused (certain build will always win) and RNG based (dice rolls).

Long War and XCOM 2 "fixes" this flaw in TB by having time limits which force you to actually strategize instead of 1 true strategy of turtling and bait enemy aggro in TB. Underrail in higher difficulties is unfair to the player and the main challenge is being outnumbered and actually building a character that works. Most TB RPG doesn't do these, and it is an inherent flaw with the system.

I just find that RTwP is a cop-out for not being able to implement either of the two pure systems properly.

Instead of a cop-out I would argue that it is the best of both worlds. You are still forced to multi-task even with pause existing. It gives another dimension in challenging the player. No it's not supposed to be RTS hard, which is why PoE failed with its low number short duration buff/debuff which either requires you to have higher APM or basically force you to break the flow by spamming pause. You could argue that "You can just pause every other action LUL" and yes, it is a systemic flaw. Putting duress like "you can only pause for a limited time every other round/minute, I think will make the system better."

Are many RTwP RPGs overall good in terms of the combat experience? Sure, but that's in spite of the hybridized system, not because of it.

TB-mod for Kingmaker shows that in TB game without duress/time-limitation the combat becomes insanely slow-paced and overwhelmingly easy in favor of the player. The same would happen with BG 1 & 2. It is a game designed for RtwP and the combat is enjoyable precisely because the overall design. You can't separate overall design from a game. And Pathfinder is "supposed" to be TB and yet keeping everything in Kingmaker and only changing the combat to TB results in an overall worse game.

In the end let's agree to disagree.
 
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InD_ImaginE

Arcane
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5,367
Pathfinder: Wrath
Anyway, still no confirmation on an editor/DM mode? C'mon, who cares about a Larian campaign?
Y'know, that could actually resolve the main issue storyfags have with L*rian's BG3.

I think both D:OS have editor and nothing really comes out of it. Shadowrun also has editor and no real thing comes out of it either. There are some modules but it failed utterly in creating a thriving modding community. In case of DOS we have several class mods but no real modules/campaign and there isn't much of a modding community about it either.

I wonder why devs doesn't try to evaluate what makes NWN toolset so good and try to ape that when they are creating these editors.
 
Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Oct 2, 2018
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I wonder why devs doesn't try to evaluate what makes NWN toolset so good and try to ape that when they are creating these editors.
NWN is an actually good game with a good ruleset people want to continue playing with.
More than that, people aren't as content starved nowadays, so there are less people willing to make their own campaigns.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,948
Pathfinder: Wrath
People do still make campaigns for NWN, like Swordflight. Yeah, it isn't as booming as it was, but I doubt anyone is making campaigns for Shadowrun or D:OS now, let alone 15 years from now.
 
Vatnik Wumao
Joined
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People do still make campaigns for NWN, like Swordflight. Yeah, it isn't as booming as it was, but I doubt anyone is making campaigns for Shadowrun or D:OS now, let alone 15 years from now.
Yeah, but I'm guessing that it's the same people that used to do campaigns years back.

That being said, heard good things about some SRR campaigns. Haven't played any of them though.
 

InD_ImaginE

Arcane
Patron
Joined
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Messages
5,367
Pathfinder: Wrath
I wonder why devs doesn't try to evaluate what makes NWN toolset so good and try to ape that when they are creating these editors.
NWN is an actually good game with a good ruleset people want to continue playing with.

Bethesda games modding doesn't become big before Oblivion, a supposedly bad game. There is more than just "a good game with good ruleset" when we are talking modding communities.

I guess the first one probably to have a big actual playerbase.

I would argue that low floor and high ceiling of the modding tools will help. Community modding doesn't start with mega-mods, it started with texture replacer, corny NPCs, item hacks. But from small things come a bigger communities.
 

trimethylsilyl

Educated
Joined
Jul 8, 2017
Messages
91
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xXx420xXx
Did any of you discuss the fact that the Divinity universe is now canonically part of the same universe as BG3?

WrovIFa.png
 

passerby

Arcane
Joined
Nov 16, 2016
Messages
2,788
No it's not supposed to be RTS hard, which is why PoE failed with its low number short duration buff/debuff which either requires you to have higher APM or basically force you to break the flow by spamming pause.

What is wrong with spamming pause to issue orders ? It only mean that a lot of stuff that matter happens and requires your attention, which is a source fun in my book and the whole point of the game.
And why the same people that complain about pause spam, are somehow fine with having action stopped for every single action in TB ?

APM doesn't matter, in RTwP you have all the time in the universe to make your clicks, and in TB implementation of the same system you'll have to click a lot more and waste 5x more of your time to play out the same encounter.
Could someone enlightem me, which exactly aspects of D&D system of any significance, are lost in translation to RTwP in lets say Pathfinder, compared to ToEE ?

Because I see almost exactly the same game, except RtwP is more dense and doesn't waste my time and everything RT actually replaces from TB, it does only for the better, like simultaneous movement vs taking turns.
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,087
Location
Bulgaria
Even Corona can't kill BG3

Working from home is incredibly underestimated/underutilized, I'm expecting it to become a lot more popular due to this.

Eh, companies prefer to police you in their cubicles rather than have you do your work at home.

Ahhh not really,most company here already have home office implemented a few years ago. You could work from home a few days every week. Tho in my opinion is pure decline and modern day laziness. Can't wait corona chan fucking up most of those progressive companies.


Eh I got free 1 day WFH every 2 weeks and it's nice. I don't have to do 1.5 hours commute to get to the office, I can wake up like 30 minutes before work, take a quick shower, and open my laptop.

I still have to be online on-time, I can't take the WFH if I have an important meeting, and I can still be off at my usual time. Heck I can usually "go-home" earlier because there is no boss making a request at the last minute. And because it's home, I don't need to do 1.5 hours commute. I can spend that time cooking dinner instead of take-out. Or get earlier sleep. Or play some more games if it happens to be Friday. And normal working hours still apply. People can't fuck off if they call me off working hours.

It does require the people doing this to be professional and so far all is dandy. It also might not be effective for some-line of works. And it can be a hassle if shit happens in work when you are home because suddenly you are dozens of kilometers away from the rest of the team.

Still, it's nice. So suck it conservatives, progressive WFH is cool :smug:

Ahh my point,you are a lazy fat cunt.
 

Dramart

Learned
Joined
Nov 28, 2019
Messages
540
Location
Argentina
Either git quick enough for pure real-time or git smart enough for turn-based.
Preferring rtwp means you're both dumb and slow.
RTwP is more similar to turn-based, in both you have all the time in the world to think. RTS are harder because you have to think fast and the harder the opponent the better decisions you have to make. The hardest, of the three types. If RTwP is for dumb and slow, Turn-based is also.
 

Grotesque

±¼ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Patron
Vatnik
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Messages
8,987
Divinity: Original Sin Divinity: Original Sin 2
I propose BG3 having timed turns or each encounter a time pool like in chess.
 

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