On the matter of min maxxing vs fun

[Pink Eye]

Before I begin, this thread was not created out of some erratic whim. It appears that some anons have taken insult to my monk builds. Indeed, said individuals, are revolted over the notion of an individual having fun with a class that they so dearly love. Why, said individuals are quite exasperated by monks and the idea of fun - the hubris of it all! So, pray tell, what does this have to do with this specific community?

The idea of fun vs min maxxing is not unique to the mongrels that inhabit /pfg/. Such debates have raged on since time itself. Indeed, if you're not abusing mechanic x y and z, then your build is considered inferior. If you're not exploiting untended bug, or feature of the game, then your build is rubbish. Or perhaps even, the most baboon form of thinking; if you're not squeezing that small 0.5 incremental damage, that is inconsequential in the grand scheme of things, then your build is considered unoptimal.

We've all had fun and creative ideas for a good build. Only to realize said build isn't as good in game. So we proceed to a public forum and ask for advice from experienced players, on how to make the build work. Only to have some mutated fetus of a man, that should have been aborted during early pregnancy. Vomit out refuse on how we're idiots, or how said build is lame, or how we should ditch that idea completely. This form of nethanderal rational stifles both creativity and fun, and leads to the worst offense known. Min maxxing for the sake of min maxxing. Where fun ends and nonsensical begins. This very manifestation is what devours build making circles, and leads to uncivilized discourse.

I've always based myself on one single metric when evaluating a build's peformance - can I beat the game with this build? If I can, then said build is fine. If I can't, then I revise and figure out how to make the build work in a matter that is both fun and appealing to me. We often forgot that people play games for fun.

 

[Yosharian]

There's just as many people who sit on their high horses and act like their builds are superior because they don't min-max.

 

[Parsifarka]

Imagine having fun while playing a RPG

Spoiler

 

[elostrim]

I've been lurking Codex for years as well as /pfkm/ - /pfg/. The anon in question was indeed rude, but you've missed the points of his posts due to his unnecessary aggression. The main issue he took with your builds is that you claim to playtest them for "10-30 hours", but you miss pretty important things that can help the build a lot because you assume their broken mechanics, or that they simply don't work, when they in fact do. I agree with you that there is a balance point between no fun allowed and min maxing, but still getting the job done, but this thread wasn't necessary.

 

[LannTheStupid]

This form of nethanderal rational stifles both creativity and fun

But why? Why peer pressure means so much for you or for other people with "feelings"?

Now, I do understand peer pressure in the form of permaban on a forum or incarceration IRL. Other than that - why should it affect you in the slightest? It's not like those critics can hire Putin's "tourists" so your door knob will be coated in Novichok.

 

[Pink Eye]

This form of nethanderal rational stifles both creativity and fun

But why? Why peer pressure means so much for you or for other people with "feelings"?

Now, I do understand peer pressure in the form of permaban on a forum or incarceration IRL. Other than that - why should it affect you in the slightest? It's not like those critics can hire Putin's "tourists" so your door knob will be coated in Novichok.

When one starts a discussion, it's often times to gather opinions. Or to discuss the matter with other members of society. Perhaps, even, to start a dialogue on an issue; that is important to the self. I believe this issue is important to me, I believe this issue deserves its own thread. Hence why I started this thread. This isn't about "feelings" being hurt, nor is it about peer pressure. This is about min maxxing vs fun.

 

[Atlet]

Who dafuq cares about anons?

I prefer fun builds in my rpgs, because most of times the games are already too easy to min-max, in a sense that the joy derives from the challenge, novelty and experimenting.

But, I think it's legit to know what a power building is more like to understand the mechanics of the game to use it in the direction you want.

 

[Tigranes]

Sure. I don't know if you had to write this like some kind of 4chan melodrama, but I agree.

Minmaxing is one path to having fun, not an end in itself.

 

[Shadenuat]

haha vivi go brrr

 

[Silly Germans]

Before I begin, this thread was not created out of some erratic whim. It appears that some anons have taken insult to my monk builds. Indeed, said individuals, are revolted over the notion of an individual having fun with a class that they so dearly love. Why, said individuals are quite exasperated by monks and the idea of fun - the hubris of it all! So, pray tell, what does this have to do with this specific community?

The idea of fun vs min maxxing is not unique to the mongrels that inhabit /pfg/. Such debates have raged on since time itself. Indeed, if you're not abusing mechanic x y and z, then your build is considered inferior. If you're not exploiting untended bug, or feature of the game, then your build is rubbish. Or perhaps even, the most baboon form of thinking; if you're not squeezing that small 0.5 incremental damage, that is inconsequential in the grand scheme of things, then you're build is considered unoptimal.

We've all had fun and creative ideas for a good build. Only to realize said build isn't as good in game. So we proceed to a public forum and ask for advice from experienced players, on how to make the build work. Only to have some mutated fetus of a man, that should have been aborted during early pregnancy. Vomit out refuse on how we're idiots, or how said build is lame, or how even we should ditch that idea completely. This form of nethanderal rational stifles both creativity and fun, and leads to the worst offense known. Min maxxing for the sake of min maxxing. Where fun ends and nonsensical begins. This very manifestation is what devours build making circles, and leads to uncivilized discourse.

I've always based myself on one single metric when evaluating a build's peformance - can I beat the game with this build? If I can, then said build is fine. If I can't, then I revise and figure out how to make the build work in a matter that is both fun and appealing to me. We often forgot that people play games for fun.

So an optimization with constraints is more fun than an unconstrained optimization problem ?
Lagrange multipliers here we go !

 

[rusty_shackleford]

what's the point of min-maxing in a singleplayer game

 

[Pink Eye]

Sure. I don't know if you had to write this like some kind of 4chan melodrama, but I agree.

Minmaxing is one path to having fun, not an end in itself.

>I don't know if you had to write this like some kind of 4chan melodrama
That was a factor that lead to the creation of this thread, yes, but it wasn't the main cause.

 

[Pink Eye]

I've been lurking Codex for years as well as /pfkm/ - /pfg/. The anon in question was indeed rude, but you've missed the points of his posts due to his unnecessary aggression. The main issue he took with your builds is that you claim to playtest them for "10-30 hours", but you miss pretty important things that can help the build a lot because you assume their broken mechanics, or that they simply don't work, when they in fact do. I agree with you that there is a balance point between no fun allowed and min maxing, but still getting the job done, but this thread wasn't necessary.

Well, regardless, thanks for explaining it to me. I wasn't all that calm minded when speaking to him. I agree. I should have ignored his aggression and focused on his points. It's not often I get angry, but what happened, has happened.

>but this thread wasn't necessary
Ah well, too late to pull back now.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Well, now I understand your motivation for this discussion, so thank you for explaining. However, I consider your main question moot.

 

[Desiderius]

The problem with min-maxxing in general is that it lessens fun by dampening variety and replayability. In P:K it's even worse in that the most notorious min-maxxers both bully new players and completely miss how P:K subverts the tiresome MMO-inspired ideas about what approaches are in fact maximally effective.

 

[Delterius]

Everyone is willing to sacrifice power for style, to some extent. Playing the game, testing ideas, getting a feel for its controls and so on is just a means of knowing how far you can or are willing to go. All min maxing can tell you is that an auto attack bot with 50 buffs can kill anything in two turns. Who cares, lmao.

 

[anvi]

What games are you even talking about OP? Because most games aren't deep enough to even have 'builds'. And most single player games aren't hard enough to even bother with it. If the game is fun and challenging then I'll try to build my characters as tough as I can make them. I did that in TOEE and I was grateful for it on that last battle which was brutal.

 

[mondblut]

This is spelled "is", not "vs". "is". Minmaxing IS fun.

 

[aposedlook]

I find it rather hypocritical that your thread hones in on decrying behavior that "leads to uncivilized discourse" when this is how you respond to criticism of your build:

You absolute cock sucker. Faggots like you are the cancer that devours the build making communities. From Baldur's Gate 2 to fucking NWN 2. You cock suckers don't help new players, nor do you publish any builds of worth. You always sit back and criticize others, and laugh. How about you publish your retarded monk build, so I can insult you. You crustacean. You make me sick, both internally and externally. I have never laid my eyes on such an individual that made me cringe as hard as you have. God damned baboon. Ship yourself back to Africa, your very presence is affront to the rest of us civilized folks.
>Top kek. I don't care how or what you play, man. Just don't call it "testing" when you're clearly just dicking around to make a post on forums.
No dipshit, I tested the builds. They work. If that concept doesn't seem to work for you, then you can drown yourself in a pool of acid. Then promptly swallow a gallon of bleach, then proceed to vomit, till your guts implode.
>inb4 hurr durr but it doesn;t do enough damage
>your not abusing mechanic x y and z
Your presence disgusts me. This is my last (you) to you. Kill yourself, and save your mother the shame of having birthed you.

 

[CryptRat]

Max-maxing and playing in story mode with cheat codes and second hand info is not fun. Min-maxing, playing in max difficulty using bugs you found yourself and cheesing as much as possible is fun.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Different people have fun in different ways? Really gets the noggin' joggin'.

 

[NJClaw]

what's the point of min-maxing in a singleplayer game

Shadenuat already gave an explanatory answer to your question:

haha vivi go brrr

 

[NJClaw]

Nobody in the real world cares about min-maxing. The only people who do care about that stuff are the kind of degenerates that frequent online communities related to videogames and, I think we can all agree, they can barely be considered "people".

 

[Heroic Liberator]

I agree in principle, fratello. Yet that's their way of having fun and it's just as valid as ours.

 

[Cryomancer]

I enjoy min maxing and pure RP builds; on pfkm my silver draconic sorcerer MC took ZERO fire based spells by RP reasons.