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Pathfinder Why Owlcat's Kingmaker Sucks, in Plain Language

frajaq

Erudite
Joined
Oct 5, 2017
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Brazil
Also who thoughts adding a time limit of any sort in a game is a good idea?

understand your annoyance but you kinda HAVE to with the way resource replenishment works in Pathfinder (and older D&D systems), otherwise you can just rest-spam and go fight after fight with all spells ready and rofl-stomp everything in your path

is it flawed? thats up your taste on rpg systems
does it work on Kingmaker? kinda depends on what difficulty your playing and just how power-gaming you're being with setting up your party
 
Self-Ejected

Alphard

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1,487
Location
Draghistan ( former Italy)
Also who thoughts adding a time limit of any sort in a game is a good idea?
It makes time management (read: action management) an important part of the game. I am not a big fan of time limits myself, but I can see value in them, if they are done properly.
time management is not a skill i want to be tsted in videogames
 
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Alphard

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Joined
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Messages
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Location
Draghistan ( former Italy)
Also who thoughts adding a time limit of any sort in a game is a good idea?

understand your annoyance but you kinda HAVE to with the way resource replenishment works in Pathfinder (and older D&D systems), otherwise you can just rest-spam and go fight after fight with all spells ready and rofl-stomp everything in your path

is it flawed? thats up your taste on rpg systems
does it work on Kingmaker? kinda depends on what difficulty your playing and just how power-gaming you're being with setting up your party
ok, i get the point of balance, but was time limit the only solution to that problem ? i'm not an expert of D&D rules, but i'm sure tgey could've came with something less detrimental to playability of the game for many players
 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
4,778
Also who thoughts adding a time limit of any sort in a game is a good idea?
It makes time management (read: action management) an important part of the game. I am not a big fan of time limits myself, but I can see value in them, if they are done properly.
time management is not a skill i want to be tsted in videogames
Well, somebody thought it would be an interesting addition to their game, so they decided to implement it. There always will be people who like or dislike certain things, but such is life. Not much more to add here, in all honesty.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
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Messages
14,183
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
You're going to look back on this thread and be embarrassed once you understand the game, but by all means keep digging.

As I just fucking explained, it's the menu/process I find shitty, so I really doubt that. You could reduce my fatigue 90%, make rations weightless and free and kill the time limit entirely and I'd still think it's a shitty process. You told me to take my head out of my ass, but you can't seem to get your mind around this simple fucking point.

You don't even know what the menu is for yet.
 

CaesarCzech

Scholar
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
445
Also who thoughts adding a time limit of any sort in a game is a good idea?

understand your annoyance but you kinda HAVE to with the way resource replenishment works in Pathfinder (and older D&D systems), otherwise you can just rest-spam and go fight after fight with all spells ready and rofl-stomp everything in your path

is it flawed? thats up your taste on rpg systems
does it work on Kingmaker? kinda depends on what difficulty your playing and just how power-gaming you're being with setting up your party
ok, i get the point of balance, but was time limit the only solution to that problem ? i'm not an expert of D&D rules, but i'm sure tgey could've came with something less detrimental to playability of the game for many players

dont have instant gameover event imho. Have harder and harder DC and impacts but allow players to rebuild from failing the events.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,183
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Also who thoughts adding a time limit of any sort in a game is a good idea?

understand your annoyance but you kinda HAVE to with the way resource replenishment works in Pathfinder (and older D&D systems), otherwise you can just rest-spam and go fight after fight with all spells ready and rofl-stomp everything in your path

is it flawed? thats up your taste on rpg systems
does it work on Kingmaker? kinda depends on what difficulty your playing and just how power-gaming you're being with setting up your party
ok, i get the point of balance, but was time limit the only solution to that problem ? i'm not an expert of D&D rules, but i'm sure tgey could've came with something less detrimental to playability of the game for many players

dont have instant gameover event imho. Have harder and harder DC and impacts but allow players to rebuild from failing the events.

P:K time limit mechanics are 90% carrot, 10% stick.

Game over isn't (close to) an issue once you understand what is happening. As implemented most elegant solution to balancing Vancian rest spam/CON dumping yet devised. Here's what stick looks like:

https://lparchive.org/Krynn-series-DD-Gold-Box/Update 39/
 
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CaesarCzech

Scholar
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
445
Just realized that the title of newest update is reference to love blooms on battlefield with that Warhammer stuff.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
yeah we read lilura blog instead.

Nice. Except:

poncefinder%2Bcuckmaker.jpg
 

DalekFlay

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Messages
14,118
Location
New Vegas
I'm at 50-60 hours played now and it's amazing to me how stupid most of the complaints are in the OP. Especially the one about loot and weight. I've been at "light" encumbrance permanently since buying my first weight reduction bag, and I pick up pretty much anything that's worth selling. I don't know what the fuck you could possibly be doing for encumbrance to be a problem. The kingdom management isn't my thing, but it seems like mostly harmless busywork so far. I'm interested in playing with it on "auto" someday, but it's not so annoying it harms the game for me. The time limit complaint seems super overblown to me so far. Once you understand it basically means "do the main quest ASAP and then side stuff" it's pretty simple to manage, so even though I don't think I agree with it as a design decision it doesn't really hurt my experience. Same for resting, which other than the slow ass main map interface process is no big deal, and I like how it's limited.

My main issues, mentioned briefly in the OP, are these two:

1) Encounter design. It's mostly enemies just thrown on the map, with little strategy needed. This is especially obvious in many of the bigger areas, where it's basically just 3-5 monsters in small clumps randomly thrown around. Even main quests are usually just a big group of goblins in row, or randomly spawning spiders, nothing that feels well designed or specifically planned.

2) Lack of direction can really be annoying, and I say that as someone who fucking hates quest markers with a passion. My issue is more a lack of quality dialog hints. I just finished the "bloom" quest (SPOILERS) and had to google to take the lamp out of my inventory to finish the riddle, something that doesn't seem like it was hinted to at all in dialog. The lamp is there to get you through the mist, but you have to remove it to pass through the final mist? What? There's little things like that throughout the game, which makes it feel like "Google: The Game" sometimes. I'm sure some will rush in to tell me they never had this issue, and I bow to your greater intelligence, but I think it's mostly a translation/writing issue where things they thought were clear and hinted at were actually not. At least for dummies like me.

Anyway... of the 20+ complaints, I think 90% of them are way overblown. The game is obvious incline, and super fun.
 

Au Ellai

Educated
Joined
Jan 18, 2017
Messages
40
Encounter design is terrible.
It's as good as it could be for the flawed RTwP system. Could be better, but could be much worse.

Kingdom management is a tedious and joyless experience. The option to play with it disabled doesn't work. There are many cases where you can lose the game by "misplaying" this mechanic, without explanation.
True. Mods make it more tolerable, but it was a pretty poor implementation all-around.

Maps are reused 4-5 times in places.
Just about every RPG out there does this to some extent. Not even worth mentioning as a negative unless it's extremely in your face, but it's not. Doubt most people even notice.

Very slow party travel across maps, with no ability to change walk speed.
It takes like 20 seconds at the most in the few cases you're going from one end of the map to the other. Not even worth mentioning unless you demand bullshit teleport-everywhere game design kids with no attention span love so much.

Choices have consequences, which would be great if you were given a clue what they were.
Fuckin' lol. Do you just read the last few pages of every book you pick up and call it good? Probably don't even read if the concept of events setting up future events is a flawed concept you have trouble with.

Alignment based dialogue is poorly thought out and forces the player to 'roleplay' according to Owlcat's definition of alignment, which is often wrong.
"My opinion is right, everyone else's is wrong. Only my concept of Lawful-Neutral matters, and Owlcat made a shit game because they have their own view of it. How dare artists create art from their own visions."

Enforced encumberance forces you to leave valuable loot behind.
"WTF, I can't have a backpack full over 300 shovels and cabbages. Shit gaem."

+5 weapons, worth thousands of GP, can be found in barrels and crates in towns during the end game.
Yeah that's kinda lame.

Annoying toy chow dogs barking, and NPCs coughing and grumbling at every other rest location. Are these quaint and relaxing sounds in Russia?
They're crowded inns with thin walls full of drunk people, dafuq you expect?

Heavy, expensive, and limited 'camping provisions' are required to rest in dungeons.
"I can't blow my load of abilities every single battle and then rest with no consequences between every fight and I have to actually interact with the attrition battle system that is a hallmark design of like 70% of games ever made. Shit gaem."

No ability to craft + poor itemization and very limited vendor selection.
"My wizard isn't also a legendary blacksmith and alchemist and cook and carpenter that can put every artisan in the world to shame that makes artifacts worthy of gods, even without training or a stocked location. I have to have experts in my kingdom help do it! Shit gaem."
Every game needing crafting is modern popamole decline.

Random encounters offer almost no XP, and a bunch of loot you can't carry.
"I can't get half a level and the wealth of nations from killing 3 goblins, I have to actually go dungeon diving and fight more difficult encounters. Shit gaem."

Failure to resolve quests before deadlines results in losing the game.
The time limits are so generous they may as well not even be there. If you actually hit them, it means you tried to hit it, and tried hard.

Tedious unsatisfying puzzles.
Sure. But there are also barely any puzzles.

Custom quests are poorly described, requiring unintuitive actions from the player (like using torches to kill swarms).
There's literally a tutorial pop-up in the quest saying to use a torch, a line in your quest log about using a torch, the item description for the torch mentions it. You have to be blind or illiterate to not notice you need to use a torch. If that was too much trouble for you, I'm not surprised the rest of the game felt unintuitive.
"How was I suppose to know my wizard used spells and not heavy armor and two handed weapons? I gave him high strength! Unintuitive."

If your character isn't charisma (CHA) focused you'll miss out on an entire level of party XP because you can't make the throne room event skill checks.
A leader of an entire nation, one of the main elements of the game that was part of the game's description and an entire selling point and feature, is improved by a charismatic character? Say it ain't so! Of course having a low charisma is going to be a challenge run in a game where you're a nation's leader. That's player choice and consequence, not shit design. Shit design would be making your charisma not matter.

Unbearable load times. Frequent required trips back to your throne room to solve kingdom management issues makes this especially painful.
Agreed. Even on my ssd the load times were pretty crazy, and it was annoying having to go back every few days.

XP is doled out at certain times and locations only, like a bad CYOA novel. You cannot farm meaningful amounts of XP to level your party using random encounters.
"I have to actually progress through the game and deal with encounters at the level intended and can't spend 3 days grinding goblins so as to remove any effort and challenge from the rest of the game. I don't want to move the difficulty slider down, I want to _immersively_ lower the difficulty!"

The game ends abruptly before you can maximize your character's level.
You mean the main meat of the game occurs through the whole thing and isn't just training for "end game" like modern popamole mmo's have trained us? How dare they make the full game engaging with a sense of progression through the entire thing and not just a bunch of shit that doesn't matter, and then "end game/post game."

Inumerable bugs, many of which are game breaking.
Maybe at launch, not now, and not when this OP was posted.

This OP post was bait, and I'm disappointed in myself for even taking the time to rebutt this. You had like 3 main points, and the rest only make sense if you're a 13 year old that's only played Battle for Azeroth as his first RPG and is disappointed other RPG's aren't matching up.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
The encounters are terrible because the enemies have no AI whatsoever. Their solution for this is greatly simplifying certain rules and giving enemies ridiculous stats.
 
Self-Ejected

RNGsus

Self-Ejected
Joined
Apr 29, 2011
Messages
8,106
Imagine becoming a wizard and never crafting legendary, magical armaments for you and your party. Truly a life wasted in musty books.
 
Joined
Apr 3, 2013
Messages
2,071
Location
Siberia
The problem with nitpicking like this, is that you can take apart any good game, pick up a piece and say "See! what a dogshit design!".

The systems do not exist in vacuum though and it's always been about how it all works together, for me - P:K was an ACTUAL spiritual successor to the games I fell in love with back in the day. It became more than sum of its parts and transcended all of its technical shortcomings, because you knew - people that made it, actually gave a shit. Now compare that to all the bullshit Obsidian/Harebrained/inXile or any other Kickstarter false prophets have made in the past decade.
 
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NJClaw

OoOoOoOoOoh
Patron
Joined
Aug 30, 2016
Messages
7,513
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Pronouns: rusts/rusty
Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
The encounters are terrible because the enemies have no AI whatsoever. Their solution for this is greatly simplifying certain rules and giving enemies ridiculous stats.
It's amazing how they even acknowledge that with loading screen tips, with the abysmal "A good strategy is to send the character with the highest AC first, so everyone will focus on him". Come on.
 

Curratum

Guest
Here's my review for Kingmaker:

Not Recommended
Posted: 25 Sep, 2018 @ 11:18pm
No, I don't want to wait 6-8 months after I buy a game to be able to play it without mountains of bugs.

Best of luck to Owlcat, but frankly, fuck this shit. I still haven't played the damn game.
 

NJClaw

OoOoOoOoOoh
Patron
Joined
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Messages
7,513
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Pronouns: rusts/rusty
Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
Here's my review for Kingmaker:

Not Recommended
Posted: 25 Sep, 2018 @ 11:18pm
No, I don't want to wait 6-8 months after I buy a game to be able to play it without mountains of bugs.

Best of luck to Owlcat, but frankly, fuck this shit. I still haven't played the damn game.
The game is playable now and it's definitely worth a full playthrough. Bury the past, enjoy the present (the present being one of the best crpgs in ages)
 

Theldaran

Liturgist
Joined
Oct 10, 2015
Messages
1,772
I played little, so you're free to dismiss this, but it looks to me that they made a colourful package, and put lots of options, but the game really fails at any and all meaningful aspects. It's a true imitation of a CRPG, but just a mirage. Open the fancy package and there are crumbs inside. Owlcat ate your cake.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
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Messages
14,183
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
I played little, so you're free to dismiss this, but it looks to me that they made a colourful package, and put lots of options, but the game really fails at any and all meaningful aspects. It's a true imitation of a CRPG, but just a mirage. Open the fancy package and there are crumbs inside. Owlcat ate your cake.

That's the setup. It spends the rest of the game subverting it.

Book, cover, etc...
 

Theldaran

Liturgist
Joined
Oct 10, 2015
Messages
1,772
It's still an indie game, and it shows.

The classics were AAA games in their time.

That's why we can't have nice things today. POE squandered all our hopes when it gathered 4M and spent them unwisely. After that, many people said "enough".

In fact, KS may have killed the classic RPGs forever.
 

Deleted Member 22431

Guest
A heavy combat game with RTwP. I need someone to explain to me why this game sucks.

:philosoraptor:
 

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