KickStarter Mechajammer (formerly Copper Dreams) - cyberpunk RPG from Whalenought Studios

[Deleted Member 22431]

if they're guilty of anything it's got to be trying to be too modest with their ask vs. their goals.

If they asked for more, chances are that the Kickstarter would fail. They were being realistic. What I learned from this is that there is a lot of people here who want to come across as cRPG connoisseurs, but are shallow superficial people who only play cRPGs with high production values. SitiS is a simple cRPG, but has more meat than plenty of cRPGs out there, and yet players didn't buy it because they are graphicwhores. This probably explains what they asked for so little in the Kickstarter. Also, it became evident that while a two-person team is enough to make an indie platformer, is not enough to make a full-fledged cRPG. And no, Underrail wasn't made by only two people.

 

[ArchAngel]

if they're guilty of anything it's got to be trying to be too modest with their ask vs. their goals.

If they asked for more, chances are that the Kickstarter would fail. They were being realistic. What I learned from this is that there is a lot of people here who want to come across as cRPG connoisseurs, but are shallow superficial people who only play cRPGs with high production values. SitiS is a simple cRPG, but has more meat than plenty of cRPGs out there, and yet players didn't buy it because they are graphicwhores. This probably explains what they asked for so little in the Kickstarter. Also, it became evident that while a two-person team is enough to make an indie platformer, is not enough to make a full-fledged cRPG. And no, Underrail wasn't made by only two people.

For me two biggest problems with SitS was terrible low res UI that was extreme hard to use. To read anything you had to scroll like crazy all the time. It became irritating fast. Another was crazy slow loading times that got on your nerves pretty fast.

And Underrail was made by 3 people but one person did 50% of it.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

And Underrail was made by 3 people but one person did 50% of it.

Styg is a genius, but this information is incorrect. Here, the wikipedia page of Underrail:

Designer(s) Dejan Radisic
Programmer(s) Dejan Radisic
Ivana Radisic
Artist(s) Dejan Radisic
Mario Tovirac
Kira Mayer
Writer(s) Dejan Radisic
Stefan Cupovic
Composer(s) Josh Culler

So he had the help of two artists, one composer, one programmer, and one writer. 5 people on the total. If Styg, the genius, had to use so many people to finish a game that took at least double the time, imagine Copper Dreams. This "Styg did all alone, you can do it too, shame on you" line is a perverse myth that gives the wrong idea about game development.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

For me two biggest problems with SitS was terrible low res UI that was extreme hard to use. To read anything you had to scroll like crazy all the time. It became irritating fast. Another was crazy slow loading times that got on your nerves pretty fast.

PoE also had plenty of problems and yet nobody quit the game because of it. I wonder why. Maybe it was because of the handpainted backgrounds and the nice art?

 

[Haplo]

Maybe because it actually had pretty good combat, interesting character development and itemization?

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

Maybe because it actually had pretty good combat, interesting character development and itemization?

The game is easy on hard, the RTwP combat is a mess, it is almost impossible to die in combat because you have two fucking bars; the character development is a bastardized version of D&D made by a person who hates BG, the itemization is lacklustre and completely uninspired (e.g., crafted weapons with regular names can be more powerful than magical items, etc). So no, it was because of the damn graphics.

 

[Haplo]

The game is easy on hard

Then play on Path of the Damned

the RTwP combat is a mess

Like all RTwP.
At least the systems were designed for RTwP and make some sense in that format.

it is almost impossible to die in combat because you have two fucking bars

Oh really? Do you know how fast you can go trough the Health bar if you don't have a tanky character? Even with constant stream of healing?

the itemization is lacklustre and completely uninspired

Above average, I'd say. And it only got better with patches. Quite brilliant in White March.
Class leading in Deadfire.
Baldur's Gate itemization is pretty sad next to itemization in Deadfire for example.

So no, it was because of the damn graphics.

Maybe for you. It was not about the graphics for me.

 

[hello friend]

if they're guilty of anything it's got to be trying to be too modest with their ask vs. their goals.

If they asked for more, chances are that the Kickstarter would fail. They were being realistic. What I learned from this is that there is a lot of people here who want to come across as cRPG connoisseurs, but are shallow superficial people who only play cRPGs with high production values. SitiS is a simple cRPG, but has more meat than plenty of cRPGs out there, and yet players didn't buy it because they are graphicwhores. This probably explains what they asked for so little in the Kickstarter. Also, it became evident that while a two-person team is enough to make an indie platformer, is not enough to make a full-fledged cRPG. And no, Underrail wasn't made by only two people.

Nigga I bought SitS because I'm a graphixwhore. That game is gorgeous, it's only let down by so much else.

 

[hello friend]

I mean how can you be so wrong

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

Nigga I bought SitS because I'm a graphixwhore. That game is gorgeous, it's only let down by so much else.

The argument was directed at people who didn’t buy the game because they didn’t like the graphics. Not at the people who bought the game because they liked the graphics.

The term “graphicwhore” is like “hardcore”, it is relative and varies according to your standards. Some people think that Sitis is ugly and won’t touch the game, but they would gladly play any IE game. They are graphicwhores in my book. The same IE enthusiasts will accuse fans of Skyrim who despise isometric games of being graphicwhores. The term is relative.

What is not relative is the fact that art direction and graphics are a deal-breaker for many players who pretend to be above it and only talk about cRPG systems. You know this because they praise superficial games that are engrossing in their worldbuilding aspects (e.g., BG2, VtM:B, Gothic, etc.). I wouldn’t be surprised if most “grognards” on the Dex are larpers of some sort. You can bet that if Skyrim had better worldbuilding they would eat it up too.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

The game is easy on hard

Then play on Path of the Damned.

That's like saying "Play Skyrim without weapons and the game will be challenging". The game was not designed to be challenging from the get-go. It's idiotic to insist on it. Nevermind that the combat remains awful and that bloating enemies HP make things even more boring.

 

[Grotesque]

What is not relative is the fact that art direction and graphics are a deal-breaker for many players who pretend to be above it and only talk about cRPG systems.

as it should be
a game is much more than equations churned in the CPU or mechanics devoided of touch of an artist.
what you consider superficial games, are in fact great games that struck a sweet balance between art direction, lore building and gameplay mechanics.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

a game is much more than equations churned in the CPU of mechanics devoided of touch of an artist.
what you consider superficial games, are in fact great games that struck a sweet balance between art direction, lore building and gameplay mechanics.

You are right. A proper game should be 70% about gameplay mechanics, 20% about art, and 10% about the lore. But the games that larpers praise here are unbalanced as fuck. They are all about lore and art, the gameplay being a mere accessory for larping purposes. If the developer insist on being tougher, the egotistical larper will rebel, because the mechanics are getting in the way of his self-indulgent dream world.

 

[Haplo]

Nigga I bought SitS because I'm a graphixwhore. That game is gorgeous, it's only let down by so much else.

The argument was directed at people who didn’t buy the game because they didn’t like the graphics. Not at the people who bought the game because they liked the graphics.

I didn't buy the game because I heard it had sucky RTwP combat, not because of its graphics. I liked Underrail a lot and I think SitS had a better art direction.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

I didn't buy the game because I heard it had sucky RTwP combat, not because of its graphics. I liked Underrail a lot and I think SitS had a better art direction.

I heard it was bad, so I didn't play it. That's moon logic.

 

[Haplo]

Well, combat, character development and itemization are pretty much the 3 most important game aspects for me, so...

 

[ERYFKRAD]

I mean how can you be so wrong

Brother it has great art, perhaps not graphics per se.

 

[ArchAngel]

For me two biggest problems with SitS was terrible low res UI that was extreme hard to use. To read anything you had to scroll like crazy all the time. It became irritating fast. Another was crazy slow loading times that got on your nerves pretty fast.

PoE also had plenty of problems and yet nobody quit the game because of it. I wonder why. Maybe it was because of the handpainted backgrounds and the nice art?

A lot of people quit PoE because of its problems but almost nobody quit it because of UI. UI was not its problem. Loading screens were also long but shorter than SitS, at least on my PC.

 

[Ninjerk]

if they're guilty of anything it's got to be trying to be too modest with their ask vs. their goals.

If they asked for more, chances are that the Kickstarter would fail. They were being realistic.

Maybe that specific KS should have failed. We're 4 years deep and, as far as I know, any additional income was generated outside of what they've asked for in the KS. Again, this could all be moot if the quality is there at the end of the day, but the things that are being changed daily on the beta (e.g. MC main character sprite).

What I learned from this is that there is a lot of people here who want to come across as cRPG connoisseurs, but are shallow superficial people who only play cRPGs with high production values. SitiS is a simple cRPG, but has more meat than plenty of cRPGs out there, and yet players didn't buy it because they are graphicwhores. This probably explains what they asked for so little in the Kickstarter. Also, it became evident that while a two-person team is enough to make an indie platformer, is not enough to make a full-fledged cRPG. And no, Underrail wasn't made by only two people.

I think production values played partially into the fervor around PoE, but I believed then as I do now that people doubled down on nostalgia and their sunk cost of believing in Obsidian. They were the chosen ones! They invoked Baldur's Gate, etc. and were given more than enough rope to hang themselves and when all was said and done (prior to Deadfire), Sawyer and the gang were swinging from the gallows while the usual suspects cheered at what a great job they had done (hanging themselves)! From the post mortem materials I've listened to (quite casually, so I'd be hard-pressed to pin down exact sources here), Deadfire's commercial reception and Josh Sawyer's comments about it that something like that was borne out in the long run.

I don't know that SitS was ever for the masses in the first place.

 

[gaussgunner]

If they were gonna deliver they would've had this "beta" demo in 2015 ahead of the kickstarter, real beta in 2016, release in mid 2017.

November 2017

It seems like most devs never surpass their first or second game. Joe and Hannah definitely learned from their mistakes with SitS. On the other hand I fear they got too ambitious with Copper Dreams and may never finish fiddling with it. That's too easy when you're your own boss.

zwanzig_zwoelf and I talked about this earlier. There are a lot of artistic tweaks happening between recent patches, which to me indicates that there are elements of this thing they are really "pantsing." I pointed out that they asked for, what, a little more than 40,000 dollars for two people. It's been 3+ years since the kickstarter. Call it 3 years--That's 13k per year. The US Department of Health and Human Services sets the poverty line for a household of two at roughly 17,000 dollars for 2020. Between this and what they obviously must have done to pay the bills, if they're guilty of anything it's got to be trying to be too modest with their ask vs. their goals.

But, as they say, winning cures all. If they show the goods vis-a-vis content, I think the art style changes could be explained and possibly forgiven.

Yeah, if they deliver a good game they could sell another $100,000 to non-backers... and they'd average 28k a year. Not bad for a side hustle. But if you raise 40k on kickstarter shouldn't you use it to work full-time and deliver on schedule, or a year late at most? But I don't care, I didn't back it.

 

[Ninjerk]

If they were gonna deliver they would've had this "beta" demo in 2015 ahead of the kickstarter, real beta in 2016, release in mid 2017.

November 2017

It seems like most devs never surpass their first or second game. Joe and Hannah definitely learned from their mistakes with SitS. On the other hand I fear they got too ambitious with Copper Dreams and may never finish fiddling with it. That's too easy when you're your own boss.

zwanzig_zwoelf and I talked about this earlier. There are a lot of artistic tweaks happening between recent patches, which to me indicates that there are elements of this thing they are really "pantsing." I pointed out that they asked for, what, a little more than 40,000 dollars for two people. It's been 3+ years since the kickstarter. Call it 3 years--That's 13k per year. The US Department of Health and Human Services sets the poverty line for a household of two at roughly 17,000 dollars for 2020. Between this and what they obviously must have done to pay the bills, if they're guilty of anything it's got to be trying to be too modest with their ask vs. their goals.

But, as they say, winning cures all. If they show the goods vis-a-vis content, I think the art style changes could be explained and possibly forgiven.

Yeah, if they deliver a good game they could sell another $100,000 to non-backers... and they'd average 28k a year. Not bad for a side hustle. But if you raise 40k on kickstarter shouldn't you use it to work full-time and deliver on schedule, or a year late at most? But I don't care, I didn't back it.

I don't remember what their original projection was for delivery, but 20k per person is, yeah, like a 2 year side hustle. They did get sidetracked by a hospitalization and I imagine flipping homes to help fund development took some time away from them.

 

[gaussgunner]

I don't remember what their original projection was for delivery, but 20k per person is, yeah, like a 2 year side hustle. They did get sidetracked by a hospitalization and I imagine flipping homes to help fund development took some time away from them.

It's still on kickstarter. Funded in june 2016, estimated delivery march 2017. If they came anywhere close to that it would've been done before Joe got sick and they could've done a bigger kickstarter for another game.

 

[Fenix]

So no, it was because of the damn graphics.

Yes, but not only that - they filed that abomination with content aimed at bioware drones, you know these - landwhales masturbating to some cringe perverted shit.


PS wait, it's Copper Dreams thread... how...

 

[Grotesque]

 

[buffalo bill]

I noticed a change to the forum section of their website:

Spoiler

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