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On the matter of min maxxing vs fun

octavius

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Personally I like trying different builds in CRPGs or different units in TBS games, that are not nec'ly the strongest ones. But once I create them I like to squeeze as much effectiveness out of them as possible.
It's a bit sad with people who always stick to the same build/units, instead of trying something different, at least in SP games.
 

ERYFKRAD

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Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Why is it called min maxing though? Is it minimizing the maximums or maximizing the minimums?
 
Vatnik Wumao
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Why is it called min maxing though? Is it minimizing the maximums or maximizing the minimums?
To answer on a serious note, I'm guessing that it comes from the practice of dumping certain stats and maximizing others in games like Baldur's Gate.

Those were the grim old days before the Antichrist Prophet Sawyer came along to balance all stats.
 

NJClaw

OoOoOoOoOoh
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Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
I find it rather hypocritical that your thread hones in on decrying behavior that "leads to uncivilized discourse" when this is how you respond to criticism of your build:

You absolute cock sucker. Faggots like you are the cancer that devours the build making communities. From Baldur's Gate 2 to fucking NWN 2. You cock suckers don't help new players, nor do you publish any builds of worth. You always sit back and criticize others, and laugh. How about you publish your retarded monk build, so I can insult you. You crustacean. You make me sick, both internally and externally. I have never laid my eyes on such an individual that made me cringe as hard as you have. God damned baboon. Ship yourself back to Africa, your very presence is affront to the rest of us civilized folks.
>Top kek. I don't care how or what you play, man. Just don't call it "testing" when you're clearly just dicking around to make a post on forums.
No dipshit, I tested the builds. They work. If that concept doesn't seem to work for you, then you can drown yourself in a pool of acid. Then promptly swallow a gallon of bleach, then proceed to vomit, till your guts implode.
>inb4 hurr durr but it doesn;t do enough damage
>your not abusing mechanic x y and z
Your presence disgusts me. This is my last (you) to you. Kill yourself, and save your mother the shame of having birthed you.
"You crustacean" is fucking S A V A G E.
 

Pink Eye

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I'm very into cock and ball torture
I find it rather hypocritical that your thread hones in on decrying behavior that "leads to uncivilized discourse" when this is how you respond to criticism of your build:

You absolute cock sucker. Faggots like you are the cancer that devours the build making communities. From Baldur's Gate 2 to fucking NWN 2. You cock suckers don't help new players, nor do you publish any builds of worth. You always sit back and criticize others, and laugh. How about you publish your retarded monk build, so I can insult you. You crustacean. You make me sick, both internally and externally. I have never laid my eyes on such an individual that made me cringe as hard as you have. God damned baboon. Ship yourself back to Africa, your very presence is affront to the rest of us civilized folks.
>Top kek. I don't care how or what you play, man. Just don't call it "testing" when you're clearly just dicking around to make a post on forums.
No dipshit, I tested the builds. They work. If that concept doesn't seem to work for you, then you can drown yourself in a pool of acid. Then promptly swallow a gallon of bleach, then proceed to vomit, till your guts implode.
>inb4 hurr durr but it doesn;t do enough damage
>your not abusing mechanic x y and z
Your presence disgusts me. This is my last (you) to you. Kill yourself, and save your mother the shame of having birthed you.
God damned! And I would've said it again if given the chance.
 
Last edited:
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This is why I never play as elves, paladins or the equivalent in any given game: They may be more powerful, but playing as a joyless religious fanatic is no fun. Elves and paladins are always hateful, Narcissistic Luddite and I do not approve.
 

King Crispy

Too bad I have no queen.
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Weak take, weak thread, weak poster.

You come on here, RPG Codex of all places, some new 2019 faggot who's been spamming about monks non-stop the entire time, then start some gay-ass thread about someone on reddit (lol) pointing out your poorly-worded and bizarre opinions on monks as being stupid, and expect from us what? A pat on the back? A "get back out there, tiger"?

Min-maxxing has been discussed to death here on Codex already. Dig up one of the old threads and add your two ESL cents to it, or come up with something fresh enough to warrant a new thread. Because this thread is pointless and embarrassing.
 

Pink Eye

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I'm very into cock and ball torture
Weak take, weak thread, weak poster.

You come on here, RPG Codex of all places, some new 2019 faggot who's been spamming about monks non-stop the entire time, then start some gay-ass thread about someone on reddit (lol) pointing out your poorly-worded and bizarre opinions on monks as being stupid, and expect from us what? A pat on the back? A "get back out there, tiger"?

Min-maxxing has been discussed to death here on Codex already. Dig up one of the old threads and add your two ESL cents to it, or come up with something fresh enough to warrant a new thread. Because this thread is pointless and embarrassing.
You sound upset? Pray tell, has some dildo found its unfortunate way up your bum hole?
 

Trashos

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Dec 28, 2015
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what's the point of min-maxing in a singleplayer game

It is fun.

So an optimization with constraints is more fun than an unconstrained optimization problem ?
Lagrange multipliers here we go !

This is a serious point. Minmaxing within constraints (say, let's min-max a suboptimal class) is even more fun than standard minmaxing. Because it combines minmaxing with the player's own style. It is heaven.
 

jac8awol

Arbiter
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Feb 2, 2018
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408
If a game is easy enough to be played without questing for every last drop of max, it should be spit upon like a dog in the street.
 

Efe

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whoa, looks like pinks got a new attitude to go along with new avatar.
definitely not gonna criticize monks for a while
 
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The only thing you can get from a single player video game is fun, you can't exactly put playing a computer game on your resume. Minmaxing is one form of fun, it's a feeling that you've found an optimal solution to a problem. Of course some people focus on this form of fun so much that they end up missing out on other kinds of fun they can have with a game.
 

NJClaw

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Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
The only thing you can get from a single player video game is fun, you can't exactly put playing a computer game on your resume. Minmaxing is one form of fun, it's a feeling that you've found an optimal solution to a problem. Of course some people focus on this form of fun so much that they end up missing out on other kinds of fun they can have with a game.
During one of my first job interviews I impressed the interviewer (that was supposed to become my future boss) with how knowledgeable I was about Baldur's Gate (mainly common quotes and quests results, nothing impressive, but eh) and for that reason he took a liking to me. I got the job over other people that were exactly as qualified as me and I can't find another reason why he would choose me over them other than the sympathy developed over a common interest.
 

DraQ

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Minmaxing is one form of fun, it's a feeling that you've found an optimal solution to a problem.
The problem with that is that it puts character build on the wrong side of the equation.
Your character's specifics should be part of the problem you're solving, not it's solution.

Minmaxing just means that this complex character system you've got there, with this large multivariate space of possible characters it can represent degenerates into "hurr... put str 18/00 on the fighter". There is no way for it not to be ugly.
 

Xamenos

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Pathfinder: Wrath
Minmaxing is one form of fun, it's a feeling that you've found an optimal solution to a problem.
The problem with that is that it puts character build on the wrong side of the equation.
Your character's specifics should be part of the problem you're solving, not it's solution.

Minmaxing just means that this complex character system you've got there, with this large multivariate space of possible characters it can represent degenerates into "hurr... put str 18/00 on the fighter". There is no way for it not to be ugly.
You are conflating two different problems, and taking character build as a fixed fact when it is not.

The first problem is "How do I build the most powerful character I can". The solution is minmaxing, and everyone does it to some extent. You're laughing at the 18 STR fighter, but when was the last time you played as an 18 STR, 7 CHA sorcerer in a DnD derivative system?

The second problem is "How do I use the character I have to solve any given situation". The solution may well be "make a better character", aka minmaxing again, but it is more often "use proper tactics", aka git gud.
 

Harthwain

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Some people like to optimize, some don't. I don't really matter which one you are, as long as you're having fun.

I mean, if I were to play with the most optimal builds™ for Blood Bowl, then I wouldn't be playing the game at all, because I find it boring, compared to making my own builds.
 

Desiderius

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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
There's a Chesterson's Fence aspect of attempting to grok the intention of the designer before breaking it, and then choosing perhaps to forgo unintended brokenness in the interest of enjoyment.

Minmaxxing/munchkinism : optimization :: OCD : good hygiene
 

DraQ

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You are conflating two different problems
Nope.
and taking character build as a fixed fact when it is not.
No.
The first problem is "How do I build the most powerful character I can". The solution is minmaxing, and everyone does it to some extent.
If the solution to your problem is either "do the bloody obvious" or "look it up in wiki" and you cannot make a better problem with more interesting solutions, then maybe the game designer career is not for you. Ever thought of alternatives? Like becoming a professional Russian Roulette player?

The second problem is "How do I use the character I have to solve any given situation". The solution may well be "make a better character", aka minmaxing again
That boils down to "should have done the bloody obvious/looked shit up in wiki" so it's a nope again.

but it is more often "use proper tactics", aka git gud.
And the proper tactic is specific to combination of build, resources available and the situation itself.

RPGs are special in that player contributes part of the situation to be solved (their character), and given that this character can vary the space of possible solutions and relevant mechanics must accommodate that. That said, "I am a rogue, who can't really fight all that well nor is familiar with magic, but can sneak, break in and manipulate people" is as much a part of the PROBLEM not SOLUTION as "I am a Doomguy and cannot jump", even though in the former case you must take into account other player who might instead bring a completely different character with different set of limitations to the table.

Bottom line is that characters are not defined by what they can do, but what they cannot. Limitations are part of the problem, solutions are what you come up with to work around limitations.
 

InD_ImaginE

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Pathfinder: Wrath
You min-max, you don't min-max. Honestly, why does it matter? Single Player CRPG isn't some MMO with DPS race or a leaderboard.

Personally, the only important thing about a build is that it works on whatever level you are aiming for. Playing Unfair in PfK? Better stack that AC and attack bonus. Playing SCS BG on Hardcore? Prepare to play with at least 4 spellcasters. Playing AoD? Prepare to choose your build on chargen and sticking with that for 80% of the game.

So long you have fun (and in case of sharing builds, other people can have fun) then a game has done its job. Dick swinging about how much you did or did not mix max doesn't matter.
 

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