On the matter of min maxxing vs fun

[Silly Germans]

Minmaxing is one form of fun, it's a feeling that you've found an optimal solution to a problem.

The problem with that is that it puts character build on the wrong side of the equation.
Your character's specifics should be part of the problem you're solving, not it's solution.

Minmaxing just means that this complex character system you've got there, with this large multivariate space of possible characters it can represent degenerates into "hurr... put str 18/00 on the fighter". There is no way for it not to be ugly.

I think this only occurs if the solution is too obvious and the system too simplistic. You won't be able to find the optimum easily if the system is complex.
It can be very hard to find a global maximum so often you have to be content with a local minimum and the search for other minima can be fun.

Also can't all video game problems be solved by "looking it up in a wiki" unless you are the first person trying to solve it. I am not sure what problems you have in mind, an example perhaps ?

 

[pomenitul]

Min-maxing is a surefire way to kill any fun I may derive from an RPG, but that's just me.

 

[DraQ]

You min-max, you don't min-max. Honestly, why does it matter?

Because the game is either going to be balanced and designed around min-maxing or lack of min-maxing and as long as min-maxing is possible the result of either is going to be shit (for different reasons).

I think this only occurs if the solution is too obvious and the system too simplistic. You won't be able to find the optimum easily if the system is complex.
It can be very hard to find a global maximum so often you have to be content with a local minimum and the search for other minima can be fun.

Even local extrema are guilty of this. They are either obvious or metagamey.

Also can't all video game problems be solved by "looking it up in a wiki" unless you are the first person trying to solve it. I am not sure what problems you have in mind, an example perhaps ?

Not for the well designed procedural challenges, but that's besides the point. The point is not that looking it up in wiki is *a* solution. It's that it's *the* solution.
If you pose chargen as problem it's either a bleeding obvious one (and squanders any complexity there might be in your character system) or one completely reliant on meta-knowledge, there is simply no other way for a problem player approaches with no knowledge but your tooltips/manual. Either way it's a shit problem and the only way out is not making build a problem to be solved at all, but a choice that modifies all the other problems.

 

[Xamenos]

If the solution to your problem is either "do the bloody obvious" or "look it up in wiki" and you cannot make a better problem with more interesting solutions, then maybe the game designer career is not for you. Ever thought of alternatives? Like becoming a professional Russian Roulette player?

That boils down to "should have done the bloody obvious/looked shit up in wiki" so it's a nope again.

Are you alright comrade? Vodka finally got your last braincells? You seem unable, or unwilling, to understand my post. I never professed to a game designer, and your tirade still conflates entirely different things.

Minmaxing, as I said, is the process of making your character as powerful as you can. This process may be too easy ("should have done the bloody obvious"), or the game may be lacking in documentation ("look it up in wiki"). But those problems are not inherent, or required in the process of minmaxing. And no matter what game you might have in mind that is not guilty of these sins, I guarantee you one of two things is true: Either your choices don't matter at all, or you can minmax and you were too blind to see it.

And the proper tactic is specific to combination of build, resources available and the situation itself.

Well, duh. At least we agree on the blindingly obvious.

RPGs are special in that player contributes part of the situation to be solved (their character), and given that this character can vary the space of possible solutions and relevant mechanics must accommodate that. That said, "I am a rogue, who can't really fight all that well nor is familiar with magic, but can sneak, break in and manipulate people" is as much a part of the PROBLEM not SOLUTION as "I am a Doomguy and cannot jump", even though in the former case you must take into account other player who might instead bring a completely different character with different set of limitations to the table

You are so close to getting it, that I cannot understand what your issue is. Minmaxin IS how you become a rogue who can "sneak, break in and manipulate people". If you do not minmax at all in a proper RPG, what you get is a terrible character that can't do anything. The SOLUTION to making your character correctly is part of the PROBLEM of how to use your character correctly. And as I said, these are separate issues, and proper RPGs challenge your ability to do both.

Bottom line is that characters are not defined by what they can do, but what they cannot. Limitations are part of the problem, solutions are what you come up with to work around limitations.

Characters are defined by BOTH. A rogue and a commoner are equally unable to cast spells or take a sword to the face. What separates them are all those things a rogue CAN do. A properly built rogue, that is.

 

[Desiderius]

The SOLUTION to making your character correctly

That's begging the question. Is it correct to dump stats? How far? Far enough to necessitate savescumming to make up for it? Exploit loopholes in the game? Completely miss entire sets of skills and abilities that are contingent on recognizing team dynamics in a myopic quest to squeeze out another 2 or 3 DPS in a vacuum?

 

[Sòren]

there is a lot of autistic pleasure in min-maxing. even in min-maxing a certain built. the best example i can give is Age of Decadence.

 

[Serus]

Min-maxing is a surefire way to kill any fun I may derive from an RPG, but that's just me.

That's because vast majority of crpgs don't have any difficulty to speak of. And if it exists, it isn't the "fun" kind of difficulty but grinding or stat bloat, etc... Or one doesn't like difficulty in the first place. In those cases, you are right - min-maxing can definitely lead to less fun. Just like setting the game on a difficulty level that doesn't challenge you at all. But consider a challenging game, a game where there isn't a single answer to what maxed character is. In such game "min-maxing" can potentially be a challenge in itself like any other challenge given game provides. Of curse the minmaxed character doesn't have to be the optimum character class or archetype. Min-maxing a sub optimal class might be a fun challenge on it's own.
In short, min-maxing can be fun but not for everyone and most crpgs are not suited for this.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Because the game is either going to be balanced and designed around min-maxing or lack of min-maxing and as long as min-maxing is possible the result of either is going to be shit (for different reasons).

Min-maxing shouldn't be the base design of your game unless you are creating anti-fun game like AoD. But a game shouldn't be designed to keep min-maxing out entirely. It should be designed as a normal game but if the player is capable of finding the min-max buried beneath it then it is reward for the player to break the game.

 

[Serus]

The SOLUTION to making your character correctly

That's begging the question. Is it correct to dump stats? How far? Far enough to necessitate savescumming to make up for it? Exploit loopholes in the game? Completely miss entire sets of skills and abilities that are contingent on recognizing team dynamics in a myopic quest to squeeze out another 2 or 3 DPS in a vacuum?

But that's exactly the questions that a person min-maxing asks himself. What will be better, X or Y in a stat. For exemple if you know or make an educated guess (in case of first play) that those DPS won't help much they're not worth it. That's exactly what minmaxing is about.

As to loopholes, that's a question not related exclusively to minmaxing. Anyone need to make their own choice.

Edit: corrected errors

 

[Xamenos]

That's begging the question. Is it correct to dump stats? How far? Far enough to necessitate savescumming to make up for it? Exploit loopholes in the game? Completely miss entire sets of skills and abilities that are contingent on recognizing team dynamics in a myopic quest to squeeze out another 2 or 3 DPS in a vacuum?

And the answer to those questions (and more) is the solution I'm talking about. I'm not sure where you disagree.

 

[Desiderius]

No it's an entirely different question. Minmaxxing implies abuse, not mere optimization within well conceived parameters. You're missing the connotation of the term.

Again, it's the difference between OCD and good hygiene.

 

[Pink Eye]

whoa, looks like pinks got a new attitude to go along with new avatar.
definitely not gonna criticize monks for a while

Gr! I am angry Pink Eye! The stupid lock down has prevented me from doing regular walks around the neighborhood! Grr! I am now going to lash out at anyone who shit talks monks! Grrr!

 

[mondblut]

Metagaming is best kind of gaming.

 

[Poseidon00]

It's all context dependent. Min Maxing is fun sometimes and makes games boring in other cases. I don't want to play Morrowind without breaking the mechanics and turning myself into a demi god. Doing the same in a turn based RPG is a snooze fest.

 

[Cyril]

Min-maxing means relating to the way the game universe works technically.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

Developers need to be aware that no matter their efforts a game's system will always be "unbalanced" in some way and some autist somewhere will take advantage of that. So they shouldn't be splitting hairs about making each mechanic of "equal" value. If you do that there wil be no distinction between one another making the game overall very "tasteless" and boring.
However just because you cannot achieve a "perfect" equilibrium, doesn't mean the system should be easily exploitable and clearly favoring specific mechanics/playstyles way too much. Having "gimped" or outright useless mechanics past a certain point, is without a doubt bad game design - it's superflous in the end and punishes players that invested in those bad options even though they had no idea that things would turn out that way, given that the game presents them as viable paths. And the "over powered" mechanics, while maybe fun at first, completely erode any challenge therefore any fun the game could offer (and again frustates players that didn't metagame).

That's why IMO a opinion a balanced game, is one where all gameplay mechanics/systems have a purpose and provide a truly viable and unique playstyle, with weakness and strengths (each tool for the right job).

 

[thesecret1]

Can't say I've ever started making a character and stopped midway, thinking "hold on, am I min maxing?" I just think "this time I'll make a buff dude with a two hander and enjoy hacking the enemies to bits with it", throw stats in STR, grab whatever skills seem handy, and off I go. Can't imagine playtesting the build for hours (takes like 5 minutes from start to finish, tbh) or wondering if I've gimped myself – if the build is sub-optimal, then that's just additional challenge. Most of these games aren't difficult enough to force me to reroll; the only time I actually had to make a new character was in Age of Decadence.

 

[Sweeper]

I'll make it real simple for you.
Min-maxing IS the fun.

Min-maxing is a surefire way to kill any fun I may derive from an RPG, but that's just me.

Makes sense you'd have a Trashfire profile pic.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

Min Maxing is fun. Seriously, this is the whole fucking point of a proper blobber.

Min maxing with a dollop of larp thrown in is even more fun.

One of the variations I like is Min-Maxing the PC without gib-me-dats from divine sugar-daddy.
That means no priest/paladin/inquisitor or any class which must have a deity for it's class powers to work etc.
Answer) Vivi.
Fucker has most of the important self-buffs and can drug up his physical stats to 40+. Can fill roles of tank, melee dps, ranged dps, dual wielder, 2 weapon fighter, feral natural attack sapper etc. depending on how you build it.
Gazzilion Strength + Sneak attack /gg

 

[octavius]

Most games are not hard enough to justify minmaxing IMO.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Most games are not hard enough to justify minmaxing IMO.

I'd wager that for most minmaxers it isn't about winning (i.e. having just an optimal build), but about tweaking the system and seeing how far they can take it.

 

[octavius]

It's like some kids like to play with their toys, while others like to break them open and see how they work.

 

[mondblut]

Most games are not hard enough to justify minmaxing IMO.

Minmaxing (what's that "min" thing, anyway?) needs no justification. It's a joy unto its own.

It's like some kids like to play with their toys, while others like to break them open and see how they work.

Precisely.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

I guess this is an advantage ARPG's have over other types of RPG's.
Since in CRPG's both the character's actions and game systems are total abstractions they are therefore highly dependent on numerical values, and properly balancing all that math must be a pain in the ass.
While since in ARPG's the characters actions are actual "physical" moves and the gameplay systems aren't heavily abstracted, "balancing" is not as much of an issue (unless there are some clearly ridiculous values) because having a "broken" PC isn't a garantee of success specially if the player sucks at videogames.

 

[Desiderius]

We all like to break them to see how they work. Some of us then put them back together. The rest are min-maxxers.