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KickStarter Underworld Ascendant is a disaster

Glic2000

Educated
Joined
Nov 16, 2018
Messages
80
I would DEFINITELY question the skill of the team that made UA. Also, I would question their honesty, their integrity, their level of taste. I would question whether they even played Ultima Underworld.

So many things to question...
 

Nyast

Cipher
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
Messages
609
it wasn't their fault, just bad management, lol.

I don't know a whole bunch about this game's development in particular but that is absolutely a thing that happens. Bad managers waste people's times, make people redo work over and over, burn people out and make them unproductive; etc. the list is pretty much endless.

A lot of gamedev would benefit from a more horizontal management system. Sure is doing Motion Twin good.

I wonder if management is responsible for the wonky dancing chains or the skeletons that stop moving and that you can't hit anymore ?

I mean don't get me wrong, I don't think management was good. What I'm saying is that both management and developers sucked :)
 

LESS T_T

Arcane
Joined
Oct 5, 2012
Messages
13,582
Codex 2014
Well, you probably can say the team was not good but I'm not sure you really can blame individual developers here. The management had put them a great burden with mismanagement and budget problems. Also it seems they had to wear many hats. I imagine at least they should be better than this disaster.
 

Eli_Havelock

Learned
Joined
Dec 22, 2019
Messages
669
I'm sure there was some talent on UA.

It just seemed to be lost somewhere between the design of achievements for skill points and stacking boxes more fucked than ~20 years ago, that those involved thought "This is great!" and got Warren Spector to continue turning into a prosthetic Peter Molyneux.
 

Max Heap

Arcane
Joined
Jul 21, 2011
Messages
617
I don't know a whole bunch about this game's development in particular but that is absolutely a thing that happens. Bad managers waste people's times, make people redo work over and over, burn people out and make them unproductive; etc. the list is pretty much endless.

A lot of gamedev would benefit from a more horizontal management system. Sure is doing Motion Twin good.

A lot of gamedev would benefit from project leads that can write a basic design document and stick with it.

The problem's not hierarchies per se. It's the top of the hierarchy not knowing what the hell they wanna do. They had absolutely NO plans with UA. That's why the game had so many lackluster/unfinished features in its release version and largely changed by patch 4.
They didn't know what game they wanted. They wanted an "immersive sim". That's exactly the problem with that term. And that propagates into art design, level design, the character system, the implementation in general etc etc.
Chances are, with a "horizontal" management these problems would get even worse. Because then you don't just have one muddled vision of a game, but multiple.

What Paul Neurath should have done, was writing a basic little design document, for a small first person action RPG.
Period. No physics, no world simulation, none of all that shit.

A basic, first person action RPG, fully designed from character system to 4 or 5 snugly levels with fitting enemy types - that's what they should have built. AND THEN, when you have a working game, you can start doing all that gimmicky shit that has little to no consequences for gameplay.

You can start adding those deep slugs.
You can start adding those shitty water puzzles.
You can start adding inflammable objects.
You can start adding that crappy doom counter if you REALLY want that.
And so on and so on...

What's important is this: Under all this sugary glaze of Otherside's dumbest ideas, you have a basic, working game that can be released.
 

Bad Sector

Arcane
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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
What Paul Neurath should have done, was writing a basic little design document, for a small first person action RPG.
Period. No physics, no world simulation, none of all that shit.

A basic, first person action RPG, fully designed from character system to 4 or 5 snugly levels with fitting enemy types - that's what they should have built. AND THEN, when you have a working game, you can start doing all that gimmicky shit that has little to no consequences for gameplay.

I disagree. The entire point of "immersive sims" is the world simulation and interactivity aspect. Games like Ultima Underworld and Arx Fatalis aren't memorable for their plot, character system or quests, they are memorable for the interactivity with the world they provided. Ultima Underworld itself even started as a dungeon simulator, the Ultima bits were forced on by Garriott after the fact.

Now i don't know what went wrong with Underworld Ascendant but certainly starting with physics, world simulation and "that shit" was not the issue since that was the entire foundation of the original game.
 

Max Heap

Arcane
Joined
Jul 21, 2011
Messages
617
I disagree. The entire point of "immersive sims" is the world simulation and interactivity aspect. Games like Ultima Underworld and Arx Fatalis aren't memorable for their plot, character system or quests, they are memorable for the interactivity with the world they provided. Ultima Underworld itself even started as a dungeon simulator, the Ultima bits were forced on by Garriott after the fact.

Now i don't know what went wrong with Underworld Ascendant but certainly starting with physics, world simulation and "that shit" was not the issue since that was the entire foundation of the original game.

I'm not so sure about that foundation part.
There is no doubt about world simulation being an important part of what makes UU great.

But the thing is, if you take all that stuff out, you will still have a functional dungeon crawler. In fact you will end up with a game that's very much like King's Field. No lighting, no physics, no nothing. Real, down to earth "explore the dungeon, whack the monster, grab the treasure". Simple enough, but it works. Mind at that point, that Neurath has stated Dungeon Master as a big inspiration for UU and DM is pretty much exactly that formula.

And that kinda brings you to the problem with UA: If you take the physics and the lighting and the simulation out of UA, you don't end up with a fancy Dungeon Master. You end up with a broken game. You got some fucky AI in a broken environment with no real goal, a broken save system and lots of bugs and backtracking. All of that complemented by shitty, repetitive missions.

That's the real issue with UA. Not that the simulation part grew over their heads. The core essence of the game already didn't work out - in fact it wasn't even there.

It is definitely true that you can't entirely ignore the fancy immersive sim bits while creating that base game (that fancy dungeon master) or it will become a mess to add later on. But I'd say you can design a basic game, which can - in a later development iteration - then be complemented by these simulation aspects. I think that's also what went on in UU and Arx.

To give you an example of what I mean:
Picture a hallway with a bunch of arrow traps on the walls. In the base game you gotta jump from tile to tile to get to the lever that deactivates the traps and opens the door to the next room. Simple enough. A functional basic challenge - you can put that in a game and it will work out completely fine.

Now for an immersive sim you'd introduce additional features that let you tackle the challenge in a different way. Like, you add physics objects and have the floor tiles react towards them (to activate the traps). Or you add a telekinesis spell that activates the lever from far away. Or you add a speed spell/potion that lets you run over the tiles without being hit by the arrows.

If your game's base architecture isn't fucked, all these features can be encapsuled in separate systems. In fact they should be. And then you can always add them later on.
I think that's how you should probably go and design a game like that. Ideally you already know in the first development iteration (the base game) what kinda additional features you may want to add later on and then also slightly adapt your design process.

And that is what I think went wrong with UA. Otherside thought about the big additional features like burning stuff and feeding deep slugs and what not. But they didn't know what to do with it. They did not think about that hallway challenge first. Or maybe they didn't think about it enough.

And it awfully shows: There is this one room in - I believe - the first level of the game, where there is a sarcophagus in the middle and when you get closer spikes come through the floor. But then you can just walk through them, no problem. You need no speed potion, you need no telekinesis, no nothin, because there isn't even functional base challenge. And that is what really broke the game's neck. Because the same kinda "we'll think about the basics later" mentality shows in pretty much all of the game's features. The lackluster mission board, the useless equipment, the trading system that is completely pointless as a result, the broken inventory system, etc etc etc. There ain't no basic game in there. There are traces, that were quickly hammered together in the last few months of development, but that's it.
 
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Nyast

Cipher
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
Messages
609
But the thing is, if you take all that stuff out, you will still have a functional dungeon crawler. In fact you will end up with a game that's very much like King's Field. No lighting, no physics, no nothing. Real, down to earth "explore the dungeon, whack the monster, grab the treasure". Simple enough, but it works. Mind at that point, that Neurath has stated Dungeon Master as a big inspiration for UU and DM is pretty much exactly that formula.

And that kinda brings you to the problem with UA: If you take the physics and the lighting and the simulation out of UA, you don't end up with a fancy Dungeon Master. You end up with a broken game. You got some fucky AI in a broken environment with no real goal, a broken save system and lots of bugs and backtracking. All of that complemented by shitty, repetitive missions.

That's the real issue with UA. Not that the simulation part grew over their heads. The core essence of the game already didn't work out - in fact it wasn't even there.

Yep, I agree. If you remove all the physics and simulation part from UA, you end up with an empty game. Can anybody remember any puzzle ? I certainly don't ( and I even finished the game ). All you have are "traps" like those rotating scythes temporarily blocking your path but that's it. Same thing with keys, you'd think this would be the perfect game to have players unlock doors, regions and access new interesting areas, but 100% of the time the abyssal keys are just found in a sub area of the level ( iirc it's even randomized ) and immediately unlock the next level. Even Doom did better with some levels needing multiple keys to reach the end.

Edit: actually I can think of ONE puzzle in the game. Ironically it's in the tutorial area. The one with a gated door, a pressure plate that opens it, and a skeleton that you have to kill and move its body on top of the pressure plate. That's it, that's the most advanced "puzzle" in the entire game :(
 

Bad Sector

Arcane
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Joined
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Messages
2,223
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
But the thing is, if you take all that stuff out, you will still have a functional dungeon crawler. In fact you will end up with a game that's very much like King's Field. No lighting, no physics, no nothing. Real, down to earth "explore the dungeon, whack the monster, grab the treasure". Simple enough, but it works. Mind at that point, that Neurath has stated Dungeon Master as a big inspiration for UU and DM is pretty much exactly that formula.

Of course you still need to put something in there for these tools to be used, the game still needs to have enemies and goals - it isn't a toy-like sandbox. However these tools are what differentiate immersive sims from pure dungeon crawlers and what people who are into these games are looking for.

Note BTW that i am not commenting on UA itself as i haven't played it, my comment was for the part i quoted in the original message.

Also IIRC Dungeon Master did try to make some proto-simulation aspect with the pressure plates and throwable items that can damage enemies, so i wouldn't say that DM is "dungeon crawler, distilled" like King's Field.
 

Nyast

Cipher
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
Messages
609
I think we could say that Dungeon Master is a precursor to immersive sims. It doesn't have physics or any of that stuff, and no environmental storytelling or NPCs, but it's possible to solve problems ( mostly combat ) through very different approaches. Using traps / pits against a monster, slamming it between a door to kill it faster, baiting it and using the fireball launchers to burn it, etc.. The environment is pretty interactive, compared to other games of the era. I remember killing the dragon, at the before-last level, by falling on it through a pithole from the upper floor. That was lucky, but still possible, which is pretty amazing.
 

LESS T_T

Arcane
Joined
Oct 5, 2012
Messages
13,582
Codex 2014
It seems layoffs now hit Boston studio.

Will Teixeira, Lead Engineer. One of the earliest developers joined Otherside you may remember: https://www.linkedin.com/in/willteixeira/

Evil Genius (Lead Engineer)

Company Name Otherside Entertainment (Full-time)
Dates Employed Dec 2014 – Apr 2020
Employment Duration 5 yrs 5 mos
Location Concord, Ma


Projects:
-Engineering Lead on Underworld Ascendant (PC, Xbox, PS4)
-Underworld Overlord (Mobile VR)
-Unannounced Project

Aerin Artessa, UI/UX Designer: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aerin-artessa/

UI/UX Designer

Company Name OtherSide Entertainment (Contract)
Dates Employed Dec 2019 – Apr 2020
Employment Duration 5 mos


Worked on preliminary UX/UI work for an unannounced title.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

MichelMohr

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Apr 7, 2020
Messages
9
Location
Belgium
I'm working on a game that seems to conjure a lot of Ultima Underworld feelings in people. I've tried playing I & II a bit but it's been difficult getting past the control scheme.
I played this one though, purchased it at release and almost immediately refunding it. It's staggering how they missed their shot with the Ultima name on their hands. Reminds me a lot of Thief 3 completely missing out on footsteps, blanking a huge part of the earlier games.
I'd love to have been a fly on the wall in the earlier design meetings.
 

Old Hans

Arcane
Joined
Oct 10, 2011
Messages
1,443
What Paul Neurath should have done, was writing a basic little design document, for a small first person action RPG.
Period. No physics, no world simulation, none of all that shit.

A basic, first person action RPG, fully designed from character system to 4 or 5 snugly levels with fitting enemy types - that's what they should have built. AND THEN, when you have a working game, you can start doing all that gimmicky shit that has little to no consequences for gameplay.

I disagree. The entire point of "immersive sims" is the world simulation and interactivity aspect. Games like Ultima Underworld and Arx Fatalis aren't memorable for their plot, character system or quests, they are memorable for the interactivity with the world they provided. Ultima Underworld itself even started as a dungeon simulator, the Ultima bits were forced on by Garriott after the fact.

Now i don't know what went wrong with Underworld Ascendant but certainly starting with physics, world simulation and "that shit" was not the issue since that was the entire foundation of the original game.
UU and Arx Fatalis were fun cause you got to explore a big interconnected dungeons with all kinds of little secrets. no one looking back on Arx Fatalis fondly ever says "the bread baking was my favorite part"
 

RoSoDude

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
727
I'm working on a game that seems to conjure a lot of Ultima Underworld feelings in people. I've tried playing I & II a bit but it's been difficult getting past the control scheme.

Here are some technical tips to running Ultima Underworld better on DOSBOX, with the option to install the mouselook mod to play with a more modern control setup.

1. Locate [...]\Ultima Underworld\dosbox_ULTIMA1.conf. Copy the following block under [sdl] to make the game run smoothly in fullscreen 1080p with no black borders on the top/bottom (but maintaining the original aspect ratio, so you'll have to live with black borders on the sides). The main fix is fullresolution=0x0 instead of fullresolution=original.
fullscreen=true
fulldouble=false
fullresolution=0x0
windowresolution=original
output=ddraw
autolock=true
sensitivity=200
waitonerror=true
priority=higher,normal
mapperfile=mapper.txt
usescancodes=true
2. Note also sensitivity=200, this fixes mouse lag. You may need to experiment to find what works for your DPI setting, don't go lower than 100. Also make sure you disable any global mouse smoothing in Windows (updates can silently re-enable it), otherwise you get jerky input. If the issue persists, make sure you also have joysticktype=none under [joystick]
3. Under [cpu], you'll want the following block to make the game run at the right speed:
core=auto
cycles=max
cycleup=1000
cycledown=1000
4. The GOG version uses Roland MT-32 for midi playback instead of the intended General Midi, so you get e.g. piano sounds for footsteps, Contrary to what's on PCGW, I use 4 -1 -1 -1 sound instead of 2 7 220 1 sound in [...]\Ultima Underworld\UNDEROM1\DATA\UW.CFG to fix this. The full content of that file should be
4 -1 -1 -1 sound
2 -1 -1 -1 speech
0 cuts
5. (optional) Install the mouselook patch from https://github.com/JohnGlassmyer/UltimaHacks#ultima-underworld-the-stygian-abyss
First, you have to extract the contents of [...]\game.gog to a new directory (say, [...]\game\ ) upload [...]\game\UW\UW.EXE to the online patching tool and then save the patched file over it. Finally, locate [...]dosboxULTIMA1_single.conf and replace its contents with the following (back up the old conf file first) to make DOSbox run from the unpacked iso that you patched. Simply revert the config file to make it run from the unpatched exe.
[autoexec]
# Lines in this section will be run at startup.
cls
mount C ".."
mount d "..\game" -t cdrom
d:
cls
uw.bat
exit

I think the original control scheme is actually pretty decent once you get used to it, but it has a learning curve. Some personal notes that helped me, where I recommend ignoring the keyboard controls and using the mouse to do everything:
Anyway, onto the game. It's taken some getting used to, but I'm quite enjoying it! I tried playing the game a few months ago but was put off by the aforementioned technical/config issues, and especially the notion that I would have to constantly click the icons on the left side of the screen to look, grab, use, talk, and fight, as well as wrangle against my WASD muscle memory just to clumsily move around the game world. But after properly reading the manual and putting a few more hours into the game, I've discovered that the mouse-driven controls are pretty intuitive, provided you stay in the icon-less interaction mode. Moving, turning, and jumping purely with the mouse controls actually feels pretty good, and all of the interactions are perfectly accessible with the correct mouse clicks and gestures. Tap right click on objects to look, drag right click on objects in the world to get/use/talk (in that priority), left click objects in inventory to use, and left click on the weapon in your hand to equip/unequip it. Not bad at all, even if inferior to System Shock's frobbing paradigm, which itself is obsoleted by the LGS control standard that followed. I pretty much avoid any keyboard input other than 1/2/3 for adjusting my pitch like the plague, as I have a tendency to fatfinger Alt+X at the same time and close out the game in the heat of things, which has already lost me about half an hour of progress on one occasion (I have the same issue with not-infrequent accidental quitting in the cyberspace sections of System Shock, for what it's worth). Honestly the most annoying feature of the controls to me now is when I accidentally click on one of the interaction icons on the left window pane during combat and have to figure out why I'm not swinging my sword.
 

MichelMohr

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Apr 7, 2020
Messages
9
Location
Belgium
Here are some technical tips to running Ultima Underworld better on DOSBOX, with the option to install the mouselook mod to play with a more modern control setup.
Thank you so much, appreciate the help, I will get to it sooner than alter. I'll consider it research for my game.
Edit: It's a lot better, I remember now that the mouse movement being extremely weird, not having sensitivity 100 is great and the mouselook patch is excellent.


To give you an example of what I mean:
Picture a hallway with a bunch of arrow traps on the walls. In the base game you gotta jump from tile to tile to get to the lever that deactivates the traps and opens the door to the next room. Simple enough. A functional basic challenge - you can put that in a game and it will work out completely fine.

Now for an immersive sim you'd introduce additional features that let you tackle the challenge in a different way.

That was really helpful for me to wrap my head around the concept of immersive sim, I've been breaking my head over how I can make my game adhere to the imsim tennents but this is the gist of it.
 
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LESS T_T

Arcane
Joined
Oct 5, 2012
Messages
13,582
Codex 2014
It seems layoffs now hit Boston studio.

Walter's response: https://forums.otherside-e.com/t/layoffs-at-otherside/10096/47

We’re still here. We’re all working remotely right now, probably like most of you. Our new concept is coming along nicely and we are really excited about it. We have cool and we think distinctive art style for it and we have that and gameplay coming together in UE4. I know it’s a tease, but I just can’t really say anything about it at this point.

I hope you all are staying safe and healthy in these unfortunate times. Maybe even gaming more than usual, I know I am.
 

Bad Sector

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Messages
2,223
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
UU and Arx Fatalis were fun cause you got to explore a big interconnected dungeons with all kinds of little secrets. no one looking back on Arx Fatalis fondly ever says "the bread baking was my favorite part"

Many games feature dungeons with secrets that you explore, but it is how you explore these dungeons, find the secrets and other actions you perform in them that put Arx Fatalis apart.
 

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