Decline What is the worst example of decline you have ever seen?

[JarlFrank]

Ultima 8 is THE original blueprint of decline for everyone else to follow. Before it, people had sense to market their action spinoffs as spinoffs and not sequels.

Yeah, it should by all rights have been called "Super Avatar Bros"

 

[barghwata]

And no, realism can not really be claimed. Not only are there women in positions of power.....

Alright fair enough, but doesn't that kind of contradict your first point, patriarchy is supposed to be a system designed by men for men, if there are women in power who uphold the same corrupt regime and benefit from it then is it really patriarchy? an example of this is fatebinder calio who has the highest rank in tunon's court.

Spoiler

Plus some of those male leaders can be convinced to turn against the regime like tunon and graven ashe

Anyways i agree with you that the writing lacks nuance and could have been alot better but i still find the idea that the game promotes feminist propaganda to be too far fetched; just because there were more male characters in power then female doesn't automatically mean that the game is saying that the regime is corrupt BECAUSE of men, plus you said it yourself, tyranny isn't exactly "subtle" with its themes(corruption, power is evil etc....) so if the writers were really going for a feminist message they would've most likely done it in a very straightforward and heavy handed manner that would be impossible to miss which isn't the case here.

 

[Raskens]

Not a RPG, but the Thief reboot was probably some of the biggest decline I've seen.

I haven't played Oblivion, but it seems to have been the biggest decline from the ones on the list.

 

[Cryomancer]

Gothic 3 in that list? G3 is just a UNFINISHED game. Arcania - Gothic 4 is the greatest decline coming from Europe. But all decline pale in comparison to D3.

But my vote is D3. Just look on how a sorcerer become better at trowing fireballs

• Diablo 1 -> Reading tomes and having enough MAG to lean the spell
• Diablo 2 -> Investing skill points
• Diablo 3 -> Finding a bigger and sharper axe.

 

[Lord of Riva]

And no, realism can not really be claimed. Not only are there women in positions of power.....

Alright fair enough, but doesn't that kind of contradict your first point, patriarchy is supposed to be a system designed by men for men, if there are women in power who uphold the same corrupt regime and benefit from it then is it really patriarchy? an example of this is fatebinder calio who has the highest rank in tunon's court.

But this is not consistent with feminist Ideology: "The Patriarchy hurts men too", meaning those who suffer, suffer due to the actions of mens corrupt Power. They also claim that we live in a Patriarchy while we have world leaders that are women, any women in power is just an Agent of the Patriarchy as any women helping in the scheme of this evil unjust power structure has been brainwashed into mysoginy, this is doubly true here, not only does she outstrips the ranks of all but Tunon she is also the one who corrects false Justice.

I really can not go to indepth into this as i simply do not remember the game that well, i had to google for fatebinder Calio just now.

EDIT: The truth of the matter is, that you can not Isolate the issue like this. Without the context of the rest of the game not one of the actual situations is problematic. The issue is that all actors adhere to the same rules, that shows a society lead by evil men, while the competent women are either delegated to lower positions while being the more reasonable/strong characters, the opposing of evil or subserviance through circumstance.

 

[Max Heap]

Underworld Ascendant, by a far margin.

It's such a masive decline, I can't even mentally connect it with Ultima Underworld.

Then again, neither could the developers.

 

[TheHeroOfTime]

Bad doesn't equals decline. For example, Dragon age 2 isn't just decline because is bad. Is decline because is a fundamentally poor made RPG, one that changed the cRPG aproach of Origins for an Action one, and completely failed on doing so, feeling like a degeneration. And then is bad as a game. A lot of nuCRPGs are mediocre at best, but they try to be properly made games. So I wouldn't call them decline.

I would not list Dark souls 2 on the poll. Dark souls 2 has some issues but also has a lot of virtues. It presents great mechanics and concepts, some of them never appeared again in the next From games (Like new ng+ rewards).

 

[NJClaw]

And no, realism can not really be claimed. Not only are there women in positions of power.....

Alright fair enough, but doesn't that kind of contradict your first point, patriarchy is supposed to be a system designed by men for men, if there are women in power who uphold the same corrupt regime and benefit from it then is it really patriarchy? an example of this is fatebinder calio who has the highest rank in tunon's court.

But this is not consistent with feminist Ideology: "The Patriarchy hurts men too", meaning those who suffer, suffer due to the actions of mens corrupt Power. They also claim that we live in a Patriarchy while we have world leaders that are women, any women in power is just an Agent of the Patriarchy as any women helping in the scheme of this evil unjust power structure has been brainwashed into mysoginy, this is doubly true here, not only does she outstrips the ranks of all but Tunon she is also the one who corrects false Justice.

I really can not go to indepth into this as i simply do not remember the game that well, i had to google for fatebinder Calio just now.

EDIT: The truth of the matter is, that you can not Isolate the issue like this. Without the context of the rest of the game not one of the actual situations is problematic. The issue is that all actors adhere to the same rules, that shows a society lead by evil men, while the competent women are either delegated to lower positions while being the more reasonable/strong characters, the opposing of evil or subserviance through circumstance.

Who are you referring to when you say "competent women"? It's an honest question.
I can only think about Eb, but building an entire theory like that around a single character is a bit of a stretch.

I still can't understand why you see evil men as "men who lead" and evil woman as "woman who serve only through circumstance". You are making this distinction, but Tunon and Graven Ashe are pawns exactly like Sirin, an Archon so weak and coward that she accepts to follow and serve the creature she hates the most. The only other female Archon we see is the Archon of Tides, who is such a coward she almost erases herself and her students from history. At least, Tunon and Graven Ashe are trying to do something good with the situation they found themselves in.

Even if you don't think Kyros is a woman, you have to agree at least to the fact that his/her gender is a complete mistery. And, again, he/she is the only truly "evil" character in this game (maybe accompanied by the Voices).

 

[mondblut]

I cant really bring myself to see a game where everyone is either a retard or evil, including men and women, as specifically feministic.

Well, it does show what the world under feminism is like, so...

 

[Lord of Riva]

Who are you referring to when you say "competent women"? It's an honest question.
I can only think about Eb, but building an entire theory like that around a single character is a bit of a stretch.

You are making this distinction, but Tunon and Graven Ashe are pawns exactly like Sirin, an Archon so weak and coward that she accepts to follow and serve the creature she hates the most. The only other female Archon we see is the Archon of Tides, who is such a coward she almost erases herself and her students from history. At least, Tunon and Graven Ashe are trying to do something good with the situation they found themselves in.

As i've said before i do not recall all the details of the game, and I am not planning to replay it now for a discussion. Save to say there were quite a few sidequest that portraited women like that but also Verse (while not virtous is portrated as an extremely competen warrior (with specific mention to how that is true compared to men) and Sirin is the so Powerful her power has to be suppressed, she was also sold by her father into slavery a Man that killed her Mother and planned to kill her, her mother was naturally the only one let me quote here "not using her as an instrument". She is also forced into slavery to work for the Voices of Nerat. To make a long story short, If the society and her Father hadn't been so awful she would not be like she is, she is basically the traumatised Victim turned evil.

Most of Tyrannies good factions are lead by Women:
Tarkis Arri is the leader of the vendiren Guard
Lohara the master of the "forge-bound"
Renata the leader of the Sages Guild
Mattias the leader of the Unbroken

The bad by men:
Bronze Brotherhood: Raetommon
Fatebinders. Tunon
Scarlet Chorus: The voices of Nerat (you can however ignore that one for now... its a special case)
Disfavored: graven Ashe

I still can't understand why you see evil men as "men who lead" and evil woman as "woman who serve only through circumstance".

I do not see it that way, feminist theory (which tyranny is based on, or at least massively influenced by) says that the World is lead by a patriarchy and Women that support this Patriarchy have internalised the Misogyny. I harshly object to your claim that "I" see it like that.

Even if you don't think Kyros is a woman, you have to agree at least to the fact that his/her gender is a complete mistery. And, again, he/she is the only truly "evil" character in this game (maybe accompanied by the Voices).

Both Kyros and the Voices of Nerat are Genderless, correct. That is what i claimed before as well so I do understand why you mention that here. The real question is why they are. The Voices of Nerat are an Amalgamation of thousands of People, it is therefore genderless.


EDIT: Just to make one thing clear now. I was not planning on starting this debate here, even though I am unable to be silent in the face of Ignorance. I haven't played Tyranny in a while and don't plan to do it anytime soon. So I am going to end it here, this is not the topic of the thread.

 

[EldarEldrad]

If you talk about cRPG as whole, then the worst example of decline is shit like Oblivion or Dragon Age 2 or whichever mainstream bullshit for children was released recently. But almost every series and franchise has its own harbingers of decline: Shadowrun Hong Kong, Deus Ex: Invisible War, Mass Effect 1, Realms of Arkania HD, Fallout 2, Baldur's Gate 2, just you name it

 

[Lord of Riva]

If you talk about cRPG as whole, then the worst example of decline is shit like Oblivion or Dragon Age 2 or whichever mainstream bullshit for children was released recently. But almost every series and franchise has its own harbingers of decline: Shadowrun Hong Kong, Deus Ex: Invisible War, Mass Effect 1, Realms of Arkania HD, Fallout 2, Baldur's Gate 2, just you name it

Well. i would argue the decline began with morrowind but whats the issue with SR:hong kong? compared to the SR:Return it improved it's systems vastly, without much of a drawback from what i am seeing. HBS SR was clearly not a *massive* Incline but it was not by any means bad.

 

[EldarEldrad]

Well. i would argue the decline began with morrowind but whats the issue with SR:hong kong? compared to the SR:Return it improved it's systems vastly, without much of a drawback from what i am seeing. HBS SR was clearly not a *massive* Incline but it was not by any means bad.

Me personally don't like Morrowind either, but is barely a full-scale decline.
Hong Kong has awful real-time Matrix that just do not work properly, for some reason they garbage existing competent mechanic and put drek instead. Also, they add a TON of text, 90% of which is badly written, self-repeatable or just give nothing tangible for plot/lore, it is just exist to fill the game and make it 40 hours instead of 25. Playing Hong Kong after Dragonfall is almost physically painful.

 

[Serus]

Voted F3 and Oblivion. Not very originally but i stopped playing most mainstream CRPGs at some point (also action-rpgs). Including many titles on the list. And there isn't much point to bring declined indies into this. A propos - it will be interesting to see if KotC2 or Colony Ship or Underrail 2 (if there will be one someday) will be decline compared to the first games.

Fallout 3 is obvious, decline in most ways within the franchise.
Oblivion is terrible but i would also vote for Morrowind if i could. It's crazy how the franchise have managed to decline in two consecutive titles. Must be some kind of a record. Dagerfall was such an ambitious game that tried many new things. Not always with success but I expect the devs to build on it and expand those ideas. In reality they went backwards. If that's not real decline then I don't know what is.

As for other older titles I remember Betrayal at Krondor 2 as terribly declined from the very good predecessor. But i don't remember why i thought so anymore.

 

[the mole]

One thing which puzzles me a lot about the current results is Skyrim. It is the much more shallow than game than Oblivion, yet it has 1/3rd of the votes.
Did people have no hopes for it in the first place after Oblivion? Was Oblivion so personally insulting to you because of you being nostalgic for Morrowind? Are people here running Skyrim with their porn mods secretly?

Also even the most disliked isometric rpgs (Pillars, Torment, Divinity) didnt get a fraction of the votes of the shit Bethesda does in a multi answer poll. Also Witcher 3 has gotten almost none.

The forum is infested with ancient boomers

Just like oblivion was my first elder scrolls game morrowind was theirs, they have good points

But in the context of this thread most decline means worst game and stooped to lowest levels

That would obviously make Skyrim and Fallout 4 the biggest decline, because they literally removed attributes and skills from the game entirely, and dumbed down everything far beyond what their predecessors did

It's an emotional senile boomer response

 

[Lord of Riva]

One thing which puzzles me a lot about the current results is Skyrim. It is the much more shallow than game than Oblivion, yet it has 1/3rd of the votes.
Did people have no hopes for it in the first place after Oblivion? Was Oblivion so personally insulting to you because of you being nostalgic for Morrowind? Are people here running Skyrim with their porn mods secretly?

Also even the most disliked isometric rpgs (Pillars, Torment, Divinity) didnt get a fraction of the votes of the shit Bethesda does in a multi answer poll. Also Witcher 3 has gotten almost none.

The forum is infested with ancient boomers

Just like oblivion was my first elder scrolls game morrowind was theirs, they have good points

But in the context of this thread most decline means worst game and stooped to lowest levels

That would obviously make Skyrim and Fallout 4 the biggest decline, because they literally removed attributes and skills from the game entirely, and dumbed down everything far beyond what their predecessors did

It's an emotional senile boomer response

I have played Oblivion first, then Morrowind then Skyrim and found all pretty lacking. I played Daggerfall like 2 years ago the first time. Only Daggerfall is a true Masterpiece, THAT is a Sandbox game if i have ever seen one.

 

[Old Hans]

dragon age 2 for me. What a rushed hunk of shit. I think thats the start of the bioware decline

 

[Sranchammer]

Tyranny was a good game.

 

[Kleptocratic debt serf]

Dungeon Lords... It was so bad D. W. Bradley is said to have permanently lost the ability to work on game development. Going so far as to never be seen, heard from or taken seriously ever again.

 

[Old Hans]

Dungeon Lords... It was so bad D. W. Bradley is said to have permanently lost the ability to work on game development. Going so far as to never be seen, heard from or taken seriously ever again.

that was the only game ive ever played that gave me motion sickness.

 

[Darkzone]

I cant really bring myself to see a game where everyone is either a retard or evil, including men and women, as specifically feministic. The only one who is really in charge in Tyranny is Kyros, by virtue of having more than 3 brain cells, and his gender is left ominous afaik. However I think I executed Verse very early into the game and she seemed like the character to me to make "threats to male genitalia".

There are two possible methods to change or relativate social positions of different groups. First method is to elevate one groups position. The second method is to lower the position of the other group.
Based on this you can say that feminiist propaganda will elevate women and or degrade the men, in terms of moral values, intelligence and competence.
If the men are retarded and incompetent while the women are more intelligent and competent, then you know that this is feminist propaganda. And further one can even state, that if the women have half of the position of power (which is gained through competence and intelligence) then this is feminist propaganda, since this contradicts the observed reality of different Gauss distribution ( in variance (squere of the standard deviation) ) of intelligence in both genders.

Now if you are meticulous you would go through all the characters in game and look how you can classify them; and based on this draw a ratio between the genders on intelligence, competence and position of power.
A reality based value would be 1:20 ( for one intelligent woman there are 20 intelligent men, but also for one retarded woman there are 20 retarded men) and if the difference is lower on the higher end then this is feminist propaganda.

 

[Desiderius]

Ultima 8 is THE original blueprint of decline for everyone else to follow. Before it, people had sense to market their action spinoffs as spinoffs and not sequels.

Yeah, it should by all rights have been called "Super Avatar Bros"

That’s how Dark Messiah of Might & Magic felt.

 

[jac8awol]

How is anyone blind to the feminist agenda in Tyranny?

Having women in positions of power in a bronze/iron age setting is as far as you need to look. Then the lore starts us off with women owning land, men owning ships, some weird distinction like that with no logical justification. Then vast, vast over-representation of women in the military; If you believe that women can be equal to men on the battlefield, congratulations you have swallowed feminist theory.

The scarlet chorus having elite female warrior squads? Give me a break. An army of criminals would be a total misogynistic rapefest.

Don't get me wrong, there were some interesting premises in Tyranny and I would have liked to buy into the setting. But the world building was incredibly lazy and done from a position of "Women are as strong as men, deal with it, bigot" with no respect to biology or historical precedent.

If they could have justified feminine power through religion or magic then fine, but to act like women and men are equal when it comes to a fistfight...

 

[Eirinjas]

How is anyone blind to the feminist agenda in Tyranny?

Having women in positions of power in a bronze/iron age setting is as far as you need to look. Then the lore starts us off with women owning land, men owning ships, some weird distinction like that with no logical justification. Then vast, vast over-representation of women in the military; If you believe that women can be equal to men on the battlefield, congratulations you have swallowed feminist theory.

The scarlet chorus having elite female warrior squads? Give me a break. An army of criminals would be a total misogynistic rapefest.

Don't get me wrong, there were some interesting premises in Tyranny and I would have liked to buy into the setting. But the world building was incredibly lazy and done from a position of "Women are as strong as men, deal with it, bigot" with no respect to biology or historical precedent.

If they could have justified feminine power through religion or magic then fine, but to act like women and men are equal when it comes to a fistfight...

In addition:

Every forge master in the game is a woman, because you know ..."gender norms. Tee hee". In fact, the only male forge master in the game isn't a forge master at all, but another *gasp* lying scumbag male who wants you to steal the actual forge master's tools because #MenSuckAmirite?.

Kyros is never stated to be either male or female, and if you ask someone (Sirin, iirc) who has met Kyros what Kyros' gender is you are summarily reproached for being a narrow-minded asshole. *See seemingly benign conversation option - be given the proverbial middle finger by the devs for clicking on it* ....I was just curious, ffs.

Then there are the Beasts, a fearless society of apex predators ruled by indomitable matriarchs.

Mattias is a male character who is raped so much by members of the Chorus that he suffers anal prolapse and craps himself, earning the nickname "Brown Bottom". The women of the Chorus - not raped. Funny that.

What is it with this game and proud, honorable males crapping themselves. It's almost like there was... could it be... an agenda of some kind? Possibly feminist? And a scatological one to boot.

 

[Daemongar]

One thing which puzzles me a lot about the current results is Skyrim. It is the much more shallow than game than Oblivion, yet it has 1/3rd of the votes.
Did people have no hopes for it in the first place after Oblivion? Was Oblivion so personally insulting to you because of you being nostalgic for Morrowind? Are people here running Skyrim with their porn mods secretly?

Also even the most disliked isometric rpgs (Pillars, Torment, Divinity) didnt get a fraction of the votes of the shit Bethesda does in a multi answer poll. Also Witcher 3 has gotten almost none.

Oblivion is a punchline around here. Think it's just the pinnacle of bad, deserved or undeservedly. I could name worse games, but Oblivion really makes peoples teeth itch.

However, I also don't get the love of Skyrim. Its negative effect on gaming is still being felt, but folks harp on Oblivion and leave Skyrim alone. A mega-seller "rpg" with *three* freaking stats. Garbage dialog, no C&C, removed almost all skills in favor of a skill tree. U7 level combat system, healing system of just standing around, magic reduced to flames or frost shooting out hands, 1st level pc does epic quests, random quest system, main quest is junk, game designed for consoles, game consists of 8 colors, enemy attacks have no variation, nowhere NEARLY as interesting to explore as Morrowind/Daggerfall/even Oblivion, not even vague sense of mystery about anything in the game.

I'm with you. The true harbinger of decline wasn't Oblivion but the rotten game that came after. Diablo 3 sucks also for the same reason, but I expect Skyrim's success influenced the removal of choices from Diablo 3.