KickStarter Knights of the Chalice 2 Thread - Augury of Chaos

[Rpguy]

 

[Casual Hero]

I have to say, I do hope that KotC 2 gets new graphics down the lines, but I definitely prefer the tokens to the weird Ultima 6 perspective of the original game. At least KotC 2 looks a lot easier to navigate.

 

[MRY]

BlueSalamander

Good luck! In glancing at the Kickstarter pitch, I worry that:

The new game is intended to recreate the best aspects of past 2D D&D computer RPGs such as Baldur's Gate 2, Temple of Elemental Evil, Dark Sun Shattered Lands, Champions of Krynn and Planescape: Torment.

Both understates what KOTC (and presumably KOTC2) offers while overpromising on what KOTC2 will deliver. In particular, I worry that book-ending the list of games with BG2 and PS:T, two games known as much for their graphics, plot, and real-time combat as for any tactical gameplay (particularly the latter), you are picking the wrong comparison point. TOEE and Champions of Krynn seem very apt -- they may be less well-known, and thus less effective in a pitch, but I think that if someone reads that paragraph and then watches the video, the comparison to PS:T and BG2 will probably cause more eye rolls than pledges.

Like, if you look at this (very accurate) list of why someone should back:

Does any of that correspond with BG2 or PS:T? If anything "not a twitchy, dumbed-down version," etc. seems to be casting shade on those games.

Anyway, at the end of the day, mentioning BG and PS:T has proven a good way to part backers from their money on Kickstarter in the past, so perhaps that outweighs any of the considerations I mention. Good luck!

 

[PrK]

Strongly disagree. The sprites in the original let you instantly parse the battlefield for relevant information about enemy type and terrain obstacles while with the tokens - at least the ones in the screenshots - this becomes almost impossible, you’ll most likely have to constantly hover over them to see what they represent. For the tokens to come close to the readability of the sprites, considering the shape of everything is a circle, you’d have to make the art truly distinctive, something that unfortunately doesn’t look like the case here.
That said, the game will almost certainly be goty material so Pierre will get my money anyway.

 

[Casual Hero]

I didn't think about it that way. As far as readability goes, I think you're right.

 

[King Crispy]

This looks really cool and, although I'm ashamed to admit it, with the sprites option included I'm quite excited for it.

Thanks for adding them back in!

Edit: My excuse is that I've always been a sucker for painted D&D lead figurines, and this brings back some of that old nostalgia.

 

[Galdred]

I have to say, I do hope that KotC 2 gets new graphics down the lines, but I definitely prefer the tokens to the weird Ultima 6 perspective of the original game. At least KotC 2 looks a lot easier to navigate.

For me, the issue is not so much the tokens themselves but the environment. It sometimes looks very messy and hard to parse. But you probably get used to that in game.

 

[Jvegi]

Aren't you guys worried about the number of classes? The guy made 3 classes before, and they were as basic as it gets. I'm not worried about the graphics. I'm worried because the man can be overreaching.

As far as the casual crowd goes, I think they'll find those graphics on pair with the first one. Honestly, they might like it more ( or rather, dislike it less), since this static esthetic is common in browser games and such.

EDIT: "par". Fuck!

 

[Tacgnol]

Aren't you guys worried about the number of classes? The guy made 3 classes before, and they were as basic as it gets. I'm not worried about the graphics. I'm worried because the man can be overreaching.

As far as the casual crowd goes, I think they'll find those graphics on pair with the first one. Honestly, they might like it more ( or rather, dislike it less), since this static esthetic is common in browser games and such.

Most of the classes look relatively simple, so I doubt it'll be too hard from an implementation perspective.

Graphics wise the game looks quite a lot like a tabletop session on roll20, so that might actually help attract some people.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Most of the classes look relatively simple, so I doubt it'll be too hard from an implementation perspective.

I believe he said multiple times it's already been done, the first module is ready.

 

[Rpguy]

Yes, the game is already made, all the classes are already implemented, he claimed he have tested everything so what do you worry about? bugs and unbalance? show me a good rpg game without them on launch...

And if you are not aware that the game is already completed, then you are probably not aware that you will get the game+the editor once the kickstarted is completed ( so about a month and a half from now ) if you back it.

 

[Mortmal]

Graphics wise the game looks quite a lot like a tabletop session on roll20, so that might actually help attract some people.

The day my tabletop session look like kotc2 i hope my players will do the right thing... Drive me to belgium for euthanasia.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Graphics wise the game looks quite a lot like a tabletop session on roll20, so that might actually help attract some people.

The day my tabletop session look like kotc2 i hope my players will do the right thing... Drive me to belgium for euthanasia.

A real bro would mercy kill you on the spot.

 

[bussinrounds]

Spoiler

 

[Grimlorn]

Strongly disagree. The sprites in the original let you instantly parse the battlefield for relevant information about enemy type and terrain obstacles while with the tokens - at least the ones in the screenshots - this becomes almost impossible, you’ll most likely have to constantly hover over them to see what they represent. For the tokens to come close to the readability of the sprites, considering the shape of everything is a circle, you’d have to make the art truly distinctive, something that unfortunately doesn’t look like the case here.
That said, the game will almost certainly be goty material so Pierre will get my money anyway.

There's also the backgrounds of different circles of color in the middle of the floor. Clashed a bit with the stone background and tokens making it a bit jarring to look at.

 

[Rpguy]

 

[Rpguy]

 

[BlueSalamander]

Take sledgehammer, bust the walls.

Or just use the 'Phase Door' spell from Bard's Tale!

He's not active,he's just doing a bit of promotion answering to his alt praising him.. He wont answer anything controversial.

:D Feel free to ask me anything controversial then.

Hey Pierre what do you think of swen of Larian studios?

I admire him. It's great what they've done with the Divinity series. They even went from making real-time RPGs (Divine Divinity) to making RPGs with turn-based combat, I think that's awesome. And now they're producing Baldur's Gate 3. Swen didn't reply or click Like to my Tweet but that's fine, I'm sure he's busy.

Stretch goal to pay for new fonts, or someone to layout properly?

Don't see anything wrong with the font or inventory-screen layout, personally. However, the font is a small TTF file this time. Should be okay to change it.

That... is impressively ugly. Is Pierre trying to bring back the use of the word "eyesore"?

Really can't agree with you. Maybe you're comparing the game to Dragon Age or some other project with a huge budget.

That aesthetic is definitely something else, and not in a good way. I'm also not convinced that a crpg looking like a Roll20 game is a good idea. Still pretty excited about the kickstarter.

Que Sera, Sera

Really? That's what you pull from this? Not like... I dunno, multiple font sizes in the same areas to present the same information? Weird colour choices? Line clipping through the top character token under the party members? A presentation that manages to both be cluttered and present little without mouse over?

Thanks, that clarifies a little bit why you don't like the inventory screen's appearance. What's the problem with having a line at the top of the character token in the box listing the party members? Truly, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

The main thing I'd like on that screen is a class column for the party roster section.

Thank you for the feedback. Okay, I'll have the game display the character's class right under the name. That way, there is no need for an extra column.

What is the item below the sling and the stones? another shield?

It's the Holy Symbol of Good. Haphel is a Bishop.

Some programmers are really bad when it comes to judging visuals (e.g. Pierre, Vogel) or know it but don't have money for better ones

I think it's more a matter of money. Or just being satisfied with what we have, as long as it's functional. Speaking from the point of the view of the programmer, I care a thousand times more about the inventory not having bugs and doing what I want it to do (like allowing bags), than about what it looks like, whether all the ability-score labels have the same font size, and such.

Does anyone know what the color-coding means? Red is probably impossible, but what are green and purple?

Blue dialogue options are answers that do not require the use of a character skill. Green dialogue options are answers that require the use of the character skill specified in brackets. Purple dialogue options are answers that cannot be selected by the party because it does not meet the requirements. Finally, the red dialogue option is the one that you are mousing over.

If only this game was isometric with sprites. It would be legendary...

It will be isometric with sprites eventually, I think.

I'm cringing at the mistakes being made here.

Really can't agree on the whole, but I would be interested if you could elaborate on what should be fixed.

Well people called KotC1 graphics shit, so what's the guy gonna do. Probably figured it wasn't worth it to put in the effort he did before if it was just gonna be called shit anyway

One thing to realise, as well, is that KotC 2 has a lot more variety in monsters, particularly large-size monsters. KotC 1 had low-resolution pixel-art sprites and the range of creatures was very limited. If you take that into account, you'll see that we did put as much effort into monster graphics as we did with KotC 1, if not more.

I want to back this so bad, but I'm certain my card will be rejected as I'm sure the payment address will be in whatever weird eastern European country Pierre is living in right now, and my card won't allow that.

Thank you. Kickstarter takes care of the payment aspect entirely.

Was the whole game designed with his blue filter on? This is not a joke. I'm curious.

Probably not because I started developing KotC 2 a long long time ago. It doesn't affect the programming aspect though. Also, Roman did most of the artwork. To be more precise, in the case of my laptop, I just reduce the brightness of the blue component in the Intel graphics settings. Much easier on the eyes when you use the computer many hours each day.

Both understates what KOTC (and presumably KOTC2) offers while overpromising on what KOTC2 will deliver. In particular, I worry that book-ending the list of games with BG2 and PS:T, two games known as much for their graphics, plot, and real-time combat as for any tactical gameplay (particularly the latter), you are picking the wrong comparison point. TOEE and Champions of Krynn seem very apt -- they may be less well-known, and thus less effective in a pitch, but I think that if someone reads that paragraph and then watches the video, the comparison to PS:T and BG2 will probably cause more eye rolls than pledges.

Thank you MRY. Let's take BG 2 for instance. BG 2 is a great RPG, well loved by many. But it is loved by different people for different reasons. I assume that it is loved mainly because of the companions and because of the quests. These two RPG aspects are things I want to focus more on.

Does any of that correspond with BG2 or PS:T? If anything "not a twitchy, dumbed-down version," etc. seems to be casting shade on those games.

This list here focuses more on the tactical-combat aspect, the enemies and combat environments. When I said 'recreate the best aspects of past 2D D&D computer RPGs' (a tall order I know), I meant that I would take the great tactical combat from ToEE, the encounter design from Champions of Krynn, the companions from BG 2, the great quests and strongholds from BG 2, the quirkiness of characters from PS:T, and the philosophical dialogues from PS:T. It makes sense that way, in my mind.

This looks really cool and, although I'm ashamed to admit it, with the sprites option included I'm quite excited for it.

Awesome, thank you for your support!

For me, the issue is not so much the tokens themselves but the environment. It sometimes looks very messy and hard to parse. But you probably get used to that in game.

We'll get isometric environments in the future.

Aren't you guys worried about the number of classes? The guy made 3 classes before, and they were as basic as it gets. I'm not worried about the graphics. I'm worried because the man can be overreaching.

They are all nicely implemented already, no worries.

Cheers everyone, thank you for your posts and interest in KotC 2.

Less than six days to go before the Kickstarter launch now!

 

[Darth Canoli]

Thank you MRY. Let's take BG 2 for instance. BG 2 is a great RPG, well loved by many. But it is loved by different people for different reasons. I assume that it is loved mainly because of the companions and because of the quests. These two RPG aspects are things I want to focus more on.

I'd rather you focus on PST companion-like interactions and Fallout/Arcanum like quest design.

This list here focuses more on the tactical-combat aspect, the enemies and combat environments. When I said 'recreate the best aspects of past 2D D&D computer RPGs' (a tall order I know), I meant that I would take the great tactical combat from ToEE, the encounter design from Champions of Krynn, the companions from BG 2, the great quests and strongholds from BG 2, the quirkiness of characters from PS:T, and the philosophical dialogues from PS:T. It makes sense that way, in my mind.

I hope you don't try to pull philosophical PST-like dialogs in the upcoming modules, it worked well for PST (some people hate it though) but it was a one time thing, nobody else pulled it again successfully and it seems overreaching, coming from KotC where side quests are interesting but simple and scarce and the plot interesting but playing a second role far behind the combat.

Also, the companions from BG2 ?
Why not the companions from PST instead, specially since you have a lot of races/classes, it calls for some weird and powerful combinations with an interesting backstory.

And why not adding some unique classe(s) and race(s) to the stretch goals for some very special companions, i'm not asking for a flying burning mage, a blind archer or a floating skull but something equally uncommon would certainly make your game something even more special than it'll be.
PST settings and companions did that and look how people still go on ranting about Mask of the Betrayer (which i didn't play) in spite of its engine and combat.

 

[Mortmal]

BlueSalamander its good you have the guts to come here , however in your replies i already can read there's a big misunderstanding.
"Really can't agree with you. Maybe you're comparing the game to Dragon Age or some other project with a huge budget."

The matter is not about polygon count , or not even a matter of budget, nor even the choices of using token . The problem is the artstyle used in the token, they are awful, some of the character portraits make it even impossible to get immersed into the game, they are freaks!

Not Going to repost screenshots again , but you can have a fantasy grounds / roll 20 look for the same budget with a much better presentation. There's not even need of sprites , no need of 3D models , no need of anything fancier, just some better art style in those token . That should have been the very first stretch goal, 100k is already too far away , remember even solasta only gathered 240k and its lightyears ahead in visuals.
Dont see what's wrong in such portraits really ?

You did the hard part pierre, coding this combat system, the encounters, it's a very impressive thing, especially for one lone guy . Yet this art style is like shooting yourself in the feet, that's the first thing people will see .Wish you luck still i'll probably buy but damn.. that artstyle.. damn..

 

[Ontopoly]

I admire him. It's great what they've done with the Divinity series. They even went from making real-time RPGs (Divine Divinity) to making RPGs with turn-based combat, I think that's awesome. And now they're producing Baldur's Gate 3. Swen didn't reply or click Like to my Tweet but that's fine, I'm sure he's busy.

Please unfollow me on Twitter. I will be unfollowing you and cannot, in good conscience, support your Kickstarter.

 

[AdolfSatan]

Adventure editor aside, how readily moddable will the game be? As in, modifying sprites, menus, and whatnot. If some codexer joins me with the coding side I might make an alternate design for the inventory and all that stuff.

 

[BlueSalamander]

I'd rather you focus on PST companion-like interactions and Fallout/Arcanum like quest design.

I liked the companions in both PS:T and BG 2. I will talk about this a bit more in the first Kickstarter update. The update will be about my RPG design philosophy.

I hope you don't try to pull philosophical PST-like dialogs in the upcoming modules, it worked well for PST (some people hate it though) but it was a one time thing, nobody else pulled it again successfully and it seems overreaching, coming from KotC where side quests are interesting but simple and scarce and the plot interesting but playing a second role far behind the combat.

Sure. I don't mean going all the way in the direction of the Nameless One and his many incarnations. I only mean that the game will benefit from having a bit more thoughtful dialogues here and there. You can make up your mind after playing through Augury of Chaos, I will be interested in the feedback.

Also, the companions from BG2 ? Why not the companions from PST instead, specially since you have a lot of races/classes, it calls for some weird and powerful combinations with an interesting backstory.

Yes. I totally agree.

And why not adding some unique classe(s) and race(s) to the stretch goals for some very special companions, i'm not asking for a flying burning mage, a blind archer or a floating skull but something equally uncommon would certainly make your game something even more special than it'll be.
PST settings and companions did that and look how people still go on ranting about Mask of the Betrayer (which i didn't play) in spite of its engine and combat.

I'm definitely planning to have unusual companions in the upcoming trilogy. We already have many stretch goals so I don't think I'm going to expand the list. I will think about it, still.

Dont see what's wrong in such portraits really ?

All I can say is that one of the goals of the KS is to improve the game's graphics. I will select one or several graphic designers based on backer input.

Yet this art style is like shooting yourself in the feet, that's the first thing people will see .Wish you luck still i'll probably buy but damn.. that artstyle.. damn..

Thank you for the wish!

Please unfollow me on Twitter. I will be unfollowing you and cannot, in good conscience, support your Kickstarter.

May I ask why?

how readily moddable will the game be? As in, modifying sprites, menus, and whatnot.

Modifying sprites is easy. Some interface icons can also be changed easily. We'll see what we can do to improve the interface.

Thank you for the feedback all!

 

[Damned Registrations]

What's the problem with having a line at the top of the character token in the box listing the party members?

That particular issue is that the line is placed too low, cutting through one of the portraits. It's not a big problem, but a very simple one to spot and fix, which makes it kind of like watching someone fail to write their name on a line properly and writing crookedly down into it.

I'm not a big layout guy (I doubt many people here are, there'd be better places to get free advice) but I know what I like and that isn't it. In both the inventory and the battlefield (background and tokens) there's a lot more detail than there needs to be. A lot. I've heard another developers refer to the same sort of thing as 'greebles' when writing a blog post about their design. Visual elements that would be nice to look at on a piece of artwork in a vacuum that are distracting to the eye in the context of an interface. And the battlefield is also an interface. Things like shadows, textured menus and too many colours being used. Or in the battlefields, having parts of what is functionally uniform terrain be more dirty and textured than other parts.

I mentioned it a while back, but I think Rimworld is a great example of a good set of low budget graphics. It's a very complicated game where noticing details like a bit of medicine or a gun being left outdoors is important, or a small gap in a wall, etc. But it makes notcing those things very easy. I would be more than happy to play KotC 2 on Rimworld's tileset (anachronism of spaceships vs fantasy notwithstanding) with sprites that simple looking. The menus are also well done. The majority are one or two background colours and white text, all the same font with perhaps two difference sizes being used for headers and information. The injuries screen is more complex but only the bare minimum of what it needs to convey everything at a glance.

Props to you for actually taking feedback on this stuff.

 

[Ontopoly]

May I ask why?

Swen is a soulless passionless cunt and I didn't take you for a Larian cultist.