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So, System Shock 2....oh the horror!

Ol' Willy

Arcane
Zionist Agent Vatnik
Joined
May 3, 2020
Messages
24,754
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Reichskommissariat Russland ᛋᛋ
Finished SS2 for the first time just yesterday and decided to share my extremely important™ opinion with everybody. No mods, just community patch. I didn't play it before because people around often compare SS2 and Bioshock and I'm not really a fan of the latter. But SS2 is a good stuff. Plot is good, and while at the first glance it looks like mix of Alien and generic zombie stuff in space, it's little bit deeper, with interesting twists. Liked audio logs, most of it game-wise useless but helps with immersion. Every characters gets a userpic in email and this is a nice little touch. Voice acting is pleasant. Level design is good. Levels are huge and mazey, and at first it's easy to get "where the fuck should I go" state, but after some time of wandering around things start to make sense. In one occasion I needed some particular chemical, so I checked three or four chemicals storages on different decks and had no problem reaching them as fast as possible. Game surely looks good, both graphics and style wise.

But gameplay is something that I have mixed feeling of. SS2 is very linear. Game rarely offers you a flanking route or alternate path to your goal. When the game threw me at two laser turrets for the first time I thought: there should be some way to bypass or circumvent them, some alternate routes - like in Thief or DE1. Nope. Level designer expects you to destroy or hack those turrets head on. And so on. Turrets, large groups of enemies, you are expected to wipe them all. Not a very "survival horror", innit? And stealth is nonexistent. Yea, you could sneak up on enemy and make a surprise hit, but you can't avoid most of the combat. Enemies are not that hard (I played on hard 'cause easy is for wimps, normal for pedestrians and impossible for masochists) and in time they became just a nuisance. You can safely slay every enemy type in the game without taking any damage, or with as little as possible. Even if you use melee weapons, just learn the dance and go on. Rumblers go down from laser rapier with amazing ease. Hit - kite - watch it telegraph its attack - reach - hit - until dead. And even if you take a hit or two - just wait until your health is low enough, make a dash to nearest surgeon deck and fully heal for measly 5 nannities. While I was low on med hypos, I collected dozen huge medikits and used only two aside from boss fights. And yeah, armor doesn't degrade. Hacking is marginally useful, but doesn't change much.

And what about the famed "scarcity of resources", ammo and durability in this case? Psy-hypos, ammo, tools are rare. So you should use them sparingly. How, when fights are unavoidable? And why, when game flips a bird and has melee weapons OP as fuck? They don't degrade, don't need ammo, kill everything with ease. Proper melee build can steamroll the game at any difficulty. This really makes enemies a nuisance because they don't give you any XP and most of them don't drop any loot. Combat is not the best part of this game, this is Dark Engine after all, not ID Tech 2. Not to say that encounter design is really lacking and game rarely throws separate types of enemies at you - let's say, one grenade throwing mutant, couple shahid bots rushing at you and one ninja lurking around and sniping you. That would be a challenge. Instead - run - encounter monkey - beat it to death - run further - encounter mydwife - beat her to death - ran some more - encounter ninja - beat him to death - and so on.

All in all, it's not that I dislike the gameplay so much - but surely there's something missing. Incentive to kill enemies - in form of XP or loot, so killing stuff would become profitable? More interesting combat encounters to go full FPS? Or ways to stealth and avoid combat altogether coupled with more dangerous and unforgiving enemies?
 

Spukrian

Savant
Joined
May 28, 2016
Messages
682
Location
Lost Continent of Mu
I installed and started playing System Shock 2 a week ago and finished just yesterday. There has been at least 10 years since I played it last time... Here's som random notes that somebody might find useful (I might find them useful in the future in case I forget stuff).

I decided to play a Melee character on Impossible difficulty. I also decided to never use any ranged weapons and never put any points in Hack, unfortunately I failed both challenges.:argh: In the body of the many there is a nerve cluster in a room with water, I couldn't reach it with my melee weapons, so I had to scrounge for a gun to shoot it with. :argh: At the end of the game I had forgot that Hack is needed for the Shodan fight, if I had remembered I would've saved all those Icepicks, but I hadn't so I had to load an earlier save and raise Hack to 4. :argh:

I maxed Str and End, I put alot of points into Agi, which in hindsight was a waste. You only need enough to wield the Laser Rapier (which is 3). I chose Marine so I could start with Energy Weapons 1, it was 4 by the end. I got Research 3 so I could get the Crystal Shard, I got Exotic Weapons to 5 by the end. I also had Maintenance to 5, which probably was a waste.

Obviously I chose Lethal Weapon, Smasher and Tank as OS upgrades. I also chose Cybernetically Enhanced, but I guess that one isn't essential, I could've chosen something else instead.

Learning the melee dance is essential, as when you start Impossible you only have 10 hit points (assuming End 1) so every enemy in the game will one shot you in the beginning. Also you need to activate the Resurrection Chamber ASAP. Early in the game I adopted a suicide run playstyle, i.e. run towards the turret/robot flailing like a madman, hoping it dies before it kills you (of course, they explode so I die anyway).
 

RoSoDude

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
730
At the end of the game I had forgot that Hack is needed for the Shodan fight, if I had remembered I would've saved all those Icepicks, but I hadn't so I had to load an earlier save and raise Hack to 4. :argh:
You don't need to hack the shields, you can just destroy them with damage. A single EMP grenade does the trick, or bullets or what have you. I watched someone do it with a timed melee swipe so they could land on the platform with SHODAN and oneshot her. Just make sure you have something other than the Crystal Shard; she's immune.
 

Spukrian

Savant
Joined
May 28, 2016
Messages
682
Location
Lost Continent of Mu
You don't need to hack the shields, you can just destroy them with damage. A single EMP grenade does the trick, or bullets or what have you. I watched someone do it with a timed melee swipe so they could land on the platform with SHODAN and oneshot her. Just make sure you have something other than the Crystal Shard; she's immune.
Well, I only had the Worm Launcher Viral Proliferator at that point and it was quite worthless for removing the shield.

Yes, I killed her with the Laser Rapier (though not one shotting her). Or do you mean that the person removed the shield with a melee swipe? Cause that would be awesome... I did try that but couldn't get it to work.
 
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DraQ

Arcane
Joined
Oct 24, 2007
Messages
32,828
Location
Chrząszczyżewoszyce, powiat Łękołody
Damage system, quite a few weapons and weapon skill system are sadly completely turds in SS2.

It's kind of puzzling that this game is so good despite being so inferior to the prequel in raw game design competence and having quite a bit of derp in the story as well.
 

Tweed

Professional Kobold
Patron
Joined
Sep 27, 2018
Messages
2,872
Location
harsh circumstances
Pathfinder: Wrath
Played Shock 2 just a week ago for the 100,000th time. I usually do impossible OSA for fun. If you do the OSA hulk smasher then the only weapons you ever need are the wrench, shard, and the two exotic firearms, the brain of the many dies horribly to the launcher. You can save the ICE picks for SHODAN's shields and kill her with cryo shots.

I tried to play with Secmod and while it has some neat features it also does way too much shit that's completely counter-productive. I also tried Infinite and lasted all of about 10 minutes before I'd had enough, I don't see why people liked it.
 

RoSoDude

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
730
Shilling the 1.03 update to my SS2 balance mod. Among other fixes and tweaks, I reverted ADaOB's grenade rebalance which originally removed all Heavy skill scaling (except on frag grenades due to an error) in favor of higher grenade base damage in an attempt to counteract the broken damage bonuses for modifications, which I've also rectified. Also, I revised the upgrade costs for stats and skills so the highest ranks aren't a ripoff and are actually worth specializing in. Check it out:

sZNh0wB.png


https://www.systemshock.org/index.php?topic=11194.msg133765#msg133765
 
Joined
Jul 21, 2020
Messages
98
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-
Arbiter, about System Shock 2 Infinite (nobody answered your question so i will try to do so): it is complex conversion mod, that has it's own strong points mostly in regards to story-gameplay integration with choices - like selecting The Many side in one of the time-splits - and with being really a new experience for experienced SS 2 players (new PSI abilities, a ton of new cutscenes, some really cool endings, including literal time paradox). Graphical part of game seems to be improved - and now Googles can and will talk more frequently. I honestly prefer silent Mr. Googles, but i know people who disagree with me on this matter. Environment around player going to change as well - it is visible in all time-split choices.

But weak points are notorious and include while not being limited to: fucked up enemy resistances with most enemies dying to one type of damage in seconds, but tanking other types of damage with ease (making reliance on single weapon type to be in-effective to say the least - except, for PSI final tier ability countering all enemy resistances) - resulting in ALL enemies being huge bullet sponges by mod design; slightly more linear story progression; fucked up skills - it is very noticeble with Hacking skill, because in this mod almost singel locked crate give you modules right from MedSci 1 first crates(!) and usually give them in big chunks without attention to both players investing in other skills and without attention to game progression (module rewards in crates mostly stay the same thru whole game at ~20 modules per container).
Most ammo types (noticable with grenade launcher) feel less distinct - it usually "normal damage", "+ 25 % damage", et cetera. And fuck it - grenade launcher barely wounding pipe hybrids is meh ( but as bonus - heavy weapons good at breaching broken doors).
Playing without heavily investing in PSI (later on, but better as soon as possible) going to rob you out of many options - including summoning ability that can handle most enemies later in the game alone.

Resource managment is dependent on playstyle and story choices, but generally with "right" choices here is no scarsity at any point in the game. Conversly, "wrong" options and skill selection means more survival experience.

System Shock 2 Infinite is *not as good* as i hoped for it, but it is a different experience for sure. Slightly better story-plot and story integration with gameplay, new content and PSI abilities... At the cost of gameplay being worse and losing original System Shock 2 charm, with balance problems on top of this.
You can try it out, if you want novelty and different gameplay. Otherwise, pass on it - and better play vRSD tweaks mod for System Shock 2. It is worth it.
 

Piotrovitz

Savant
Joined
Dec 21, 2017
Messages
805
Location
Paris, Texas
Are there any good mods that are as closest to vanilla as possible?

What I'm looking for is mainly weapon rebalance stuff - in vanilla energy weapons are close to useless, due to the fact that all robot enemies are easily whacked with AP ammo. The only usable energy weapon is laser pistol which you get early on and doesn't require much skill investment. Also, once you get assault rifle it's all game over - nothing stands a chance.

Not sure about exotic weapons, as I've never used them, but I suspect they are also inferior to assault rifle.
 

RoSoDude

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
730
Are there any good mods that are as closest to vanilla as possible?

What I'm looking for is mainly weapon rebalance stuff - in vanilla energy weapons are close to useless, due to the fact that all robot enemies are easily whacked with AP ammo. The only usable energy weapon is laser pistol which you get early on and doesn't require much skill investment. Also, once you get assault rifle it's all game over - nothing stands a chance.

Not sure about exotic weapons, as I've never used them, but I suspect they are also inferior to assault rifle.

Forgive me for shamelessly promoting my own mod, but my goal was precisely to rectify the poor skill balance without substantially altering the game's core design (no new weapons or assets, no changes to story or progression, enemies aren't any more or less aggressive, resource scarcity is untouched, difficulty is largely unchanged, etc.). You previously asked the same question and I detailed all the changes made to weapon balance, with some more changes made since. I'll try to put things into context a bit.

I actually really like Energy weapons nearly as they are; they've been a staple for me since vanilla/SCP playthroughs. Having weapons that I can use at basically no cost (just maint tools or even repair if I get desperate) is a godsend, particularly with them being useful against bots and turrets which are among the most dangerous threats in the game. There's some nuance with the Laser Pistol and EMP Rifle where NORM shots are more energy efficient per point of damage but OVER shots cost less weapon durability per point of damage. Carrying multiple Laser Pistols can be advised if you have the space for it, as it offsets the durability issue and doubles the value compared to weapons that share the same ammo pool. The EMP rifle is pretty underrated if you ask me -- yes it can only harm mechanical enemies, but those are the bane of the Rickenbacker, and Midwives and Assassins still populate the Body of the Many. However, the Laser Rapier also has a much stronger niche now that the wrench does not receive damage bonuses from Standard!

The Heavy skill has seen the biggest improvements, with the Stasis Field Generator moved to Heavy 1 as the starting choice, offering strong utility all through the game (you can save a ton of ammo by freezing enemies and wrenching them to death, the prism cost is halved). The Grenade Launcher now comes at Heavy 3 with the bugged (?) modification damage bonus removed, with the exact same base strength as vanilla but with greater incentive to continue investing in Heavy. The Fusion Cannon is finally a proper BFG, dealing tons of energy damage along with a bit of incendiary to make it effective against all enemy types, and with the blast radius adjusted so you're much less likely to kill yourself using it. Both the Stasis Field Generator and Fusion Cannon benefit from repairable prisms, which offers a cheaper way to obtain ammo than Replicators, especially on higher difficulties.

Note that while the Assault Rifle still has high damage (10 vanilla, 8 in SS2Tool/SCP/SS2-RSD), it's now locked to 2-round burst minimum, degrades twice as fast (equal to pistol rate), and is harder to keep maintained since tools now subtract the requirement from the restoration amount. Worth carrying a Pistol as a finisher. Clip size is reduced and reload time is increased on all Standard weapons, so you have to more carefully manage your ammo selection. On my last run I saved up for Standard 6 to blast through BotM with the AR alongside my Fusion Cannon and while it still absolutely shredded, it was fairly tricky to manage ammo and keep the thing in proper working order. I had it nearly break from perfect condition in BotM alone. My previous run before that was a pure Energy + Exotic + psi run, in which the EMP rifle was extensively useful while the Worm Launcher is sadly available too late to really make much use of its awesome power. Can't change much about Exotic without messing with the plot, but at least they're now free of degradation and Research investment is actually worth a damn overall as you can't research every single enemy organ at Research 1 anymore.
 

Piotrovitz

Savant
Joined
Dec 21, 2017
Messages
805
Location
Paris, Texas
Thanks mate - I went through the change log and it looks promising as fuck, can't wait to try it.

Is this fully compatible with GOG version?
 

Piotrovitz

Savant
Joined
Dec 21, 2017
Messages
805
Location
Paris, Texas
RoSoDude

Not sure what is causing it, but with mod activated, the game sometimes starts stuttering to the point of being unplayable.

It seems that the main trigger for those stutters are audio logs. Every time one is played, the game is going apeshit and FPS drop drastically. The only remedy seems to be quickload.
 

RoSoDude

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
730
RoSoDude

Not sure what is causing it, but with mod activated, the game sometimes starts stuttering to the point of being unplayable.

It seems that the main trigger for those stutters are audio logs. Every time one is played, the game is going apeshit and FPS drop drastically. The only remedy seems to be quickload.

Strange. Can you try disabling the mod and telling me if it still happens (hopefully stable enough to deactivate)? I can't think of anything I touched related to audio logs, could be something with how the game processes audio. I have plenty of custom scripts, but I have very little running on every timer tick, most of the behavior is on pretty lightweight event handlers.

Also, I should mention I have some new stuff planned for version 1.4. This time I'm tackling O/S upgrade balance. Here's a teaser:

The Pack Rat O/S upgrade now allows for stacking of food and junk items in addition to granting 3 more inventory spaces. Hoarders take note!

I had to reimplement the beaker behavior from scratch with a custom script so the whole stack doesn't get destroyed for only one beaker's worth of worms.
 

Piotrovitz

Savant
Joined
Dec 21, 2017
Messages
805
Location
Paris, Texas
When mod is deactivated everything seems to run fine.
I did a fresh install from the scratch and restarted the game, but the problem persists - I can't pinpoint what exactly triggers it, but the stuttering seems to start every time the music is kicking in or audio log is being played.

Dunno, maybe it's just my trashy, virus ridden laptop. I'll make another attempt once I get SSD and clean my shit up.
 

RoSoDude

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
730
SS2 - Rebalanced Skills and Disciplines 1.04 is live. This update focuses on buffing less desirable O/S traits (Pack Rat, Tinker, Strong Metabolism, Tank, Smasher), adds a new mechanic for the WormBlood implant that allows you to swap your immunity to Exotic weapon settings at will, and makes hackable crates repairable instead of exploding in your face, among other changes and fixes.

 
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CyberModuled

Arbiter
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
443
Decided to do a third run after years and an Impossible run for the first time. Definitely got tight with the ammo and nanite management at times due to my Navy hacker build more than I remember from Normal/Hard but all around an excellent experience and it's still such a fucking peak for survival horror/horror games in general as well as RPG/FPS hybrids.

On that note, RoSoDude, decided to try your recent rebalance mod for the run and all around it's really damn good. Reworking of certain cyber module costs and requirements that make the player need to dedicate towards certain skill/stat requirements (most research requiring more than 1 point in it now, grenade launcher requiring 3 in heavy weapons, etc.) as well as weapon touch ups (making the assault rifle's default fire forcefully shoot two shots minimum was a great way to make the Pistol not be obsolete like the base game) made the experience feel fresh while still SS2. Only issue (and even then, I'm not 100% certain if it's from the mod itself) for some reason I could never research the WormSkin Armor properly despite reaching the 6 research skill (was using 1.04).

vx68rx.png
 

RoSoDude

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
730
Thanks for the mini-review! That was my goal, same ol' SS2 but with more valid ways to build your character. Do let me know if you have any specific suggestions or anything cool that came up.

WormSkin armor researched just fine on my 1.02 playthrough, and I can still research it in 1.04 when I summon it using cheat commands to test. Perhaps there's something wrong with a certain copy of the object in the map? They can have special properties and scripts attached to them, maybe the research action is getting blocked by something there. Or it's a problem with a mod conflict or install. Shoot me a PM and we can try to work it out.
 

Spukrian

Savant
Joined
May 28, 2016
Messages
682
Location
Lost Continent of Mu
Jolly, the dude who usually plays Half Life mods, played through System Shock 2. Unfortunately the vods are gone from twitch, but he has edited and uploaded the first few bits to youtube:




 
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RoSoDude

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
730
SS2 - Rebalanced Skills and Disciplines 1.05 is live. This update adds a repairable QBR machine to the Command deck and a repairable Power Station to the Rickenbacker, as well as making the Research skill increase the chance to find researchable organs from loot tables, replacing the useless hack/repair/modify softwares in Replicators, and a few other changes.

 

RoSoDude

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
730
Even more new stuff.

SS2 - Rebalanced Skills and Disciplines 1.06
The major focus of this update is on retooling character creation with unique benefits for each class, coupled with tweaks to early game resource distribution to make each playthrough more distinct based on your starting choices.

Scary Monsters AI Enhancement
This is a standalone AI enhancement mod, intended to redress some of the cheese tactics that allow the player to declaw enemies and make them less scary than they should be. The core identities of each enemy type are unchanged, but responses are tweaked to allow them to better challenge the player.
 

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