Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Desiderius]

Transmutation bonus only goes to physical attributes and doesn't stack with equipment.

That said, if you go to lvl five for Eldritch Knight it kicks up to +2 which is very good to get her CON out of danger range while traveling and keeping belt slot for DEX. Likewise Skylar is broadly right about the Feats. There are more viable to competitive builds for Octavia than initially thought.

 

[NJClaw]

Transmutation bonus only goes to physical attributes and doesn't stack with equipment.

That said, if you go to lvl five for Eldritch Knight it kicks up to +2 which is very good to get her CON out of danger range while traveling and keeping belt slot for DEX. Likewise Skylar is broadly right about the Feats. There are more viable to competitive builds for Octavia than initially thought.

We are not debating if there are more viable builds for Octavia or not. The point I'm going against is "Arcane Trickster is straight up worse than a pure Wizard because you don't get your specialization bonus and miss out on two feats". And I'm going against it because what the Arcane Trickster gives you is very well worth the loss of your specialization bonus and those two feats aren't going to make a completely different character. If you plan to spend those two feats on Toughness and Weapon Focus, you aren't missing that much by going Arcane Trickster.

 

[Desiderius]

Then spend them on something better. Greater Spell Focus is very good on those Slows in VTomb and beyond. If you're spamming Rays you can make skillful use of Metamagic (especially with CotW) to do things not available to AT, and if you're using a Weapon for the iteratives freeing up your regular Feats for Shatter and the like is gold. As he said, it's net three Feats by lvl 10, which is similar to the Crusader debate. If you want to beef up your cantrips, Rays, and Fireballs with some extra damage AT is great, but for a better all around caster I wouldn't sleep on pure Wiz or EK.

 

[Desiderius]

Agree with Hap that Octavia is not worse than full Wizard, but depending on what you're looking for not purely better either.

 

[NJClaw]

Agree with Hap that Octavia is not worse than full Wizard, but depending on what you're looking for not purely better either.

Jesus Christ, that's exactly what I was saying.

I'm not saying that the AT is straight up better, I'm just saying that it's not straight up worse.

 

[Sykar]

Transmutation bonus only goes to physical attributes and doesn't stack with equipment.

That said, if you go to lvl five for Eldritch Knight it kicks up to +2 which is very good to get her CON out of danger range while traveling and keeping belt slot for DEX. Likewise Skylar is broadly right about the Feats. There are more viable to competitive builds for Octavia than initially thought.

Yeah but giving up for example a Belt of Physical Perfection for Belt of Perfect Components is not a bad thing. The bonus from physical perfection essentially frees up an attribute boosting slot for something else. Whether that is worth it or not depends on the alternatives you want to use there.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Yeah, playing a Wizard is not fun in Poncefinder at all, unlike every other DnD game in existence. Until you get to highest tier shit (Finger of Death, Wail of Banshee), which is late into the game, your spells do almost no damage because everything has such inflated stats and health on any decent difficulty. So prepare to be a cc/utility bot for the chads in your party. And even at the end, tough enemies will save/resist your shit a lot, and with the resting system, you won't be able to cast it that much.

 

[Sykar]

Agree with Hap that Octavia is not worse than full Wizard, but depending on what you're looking for not purely better either.

Jesus Christ, that's exactly what I was saying.

I'm not saying that the AT is straight up better, I'm just saying that it's not straight up worse.

It is a shift in focus from in this order utility/buffing/CC/damage to be more focused on damage and rogue utlity though of course they can still do some buffing/debuffing/CC but many slots are basically now reserved for damage spells or the specialization was pointless.

 

[Lawntoilet]

Yeah, playing a Wizard is not fun in Poncefinder at all, unlike every other DnD game in existence. Until you get to highest tier shit (Finger of Death, Wail of Banshee), which is late into the game, your spells do almost no damage because everything has such inflated stats and health on any decent difficulty. So prepare to be a cc/utility bot for the chads in your party. And even at the end, tough enemies will save/resist your shit a lot, and with the resting system, you won't be able to cast it that much.

Hey man it's cool that you finally found a better nickname than "Shitmaker," maybe someday you'll be able to come up with a funny one yourself like Lilura did.

 

[Pink Eye]

I finally found a use for the retarded button!

 

[Haplo]

And yet I still easily pick Greater Penetration and Greater Focus Conjuration on Octavia. Could rather easily pick 2nd Greater Focus, but don't see much reason to. Also have Heighten and probably also some other metamagic (Empower?). Don't really have any particular meaningful feats I'm missing. Toughness? Come on. Well, I guess Shatter wouldn't be bad and would require a slight sacrifice.

 

[NJClaw]

Yeah, playing a Wizard is not fun in Poncefinder at all, unlike every other DnD game in existence. Until you get to highest tier shit (Finger of Death, Wail of Banshee), which is late into the game, your spells do almost no damage because everything has such inflated stats and health on any decent difficulty. So prepare to be a cc/utility bot for the chads in your party. And even at the end, tough enemies will save/resist your shit a lot, and with the resting system, you won't be able to cast it that much.

I have so many questions, the first of which is: have you even played the game?

Scorching Ray is a 2nd level spell and it does great damage for the entire playthrough, if you invest on it. Even a simple Fireball can go a long way, since in many encounters you face large groups of weaker enemies. During my first playthrough I had a Magus, a Wizard, a Sorcerer, a Druid and a Cleric and I could just skip encounters with a couple castings of Fireball and Flame Strike. I wasn't playing on Unfair, but you can't expect every single strategy to work on a difficulty mode that's literally called "unfair".

Then no shit, doing raw damage isn't always the best possible use of your turn, big surprise. Of course during important fights it can be better to rely on other spells: everybody can deal damage, but not everybody can cast Hideous Laughter, Glitterdust, Haste, Slow, Stoneskin, Greater Invisibility and Enervation. You can halve the big troll's HP, but why would waste your spells doing that when you can completely disable him?

But this is the funniest part:

And even at the end, tough enemies will save/resist your shit a lot, and with the resting system, you won't be able to cast it that much.

What game are you even talking about? Every enemy in Kingmaker has an exploitable weakness and most of them can be exploited by a well prepared Wizard. Tough enemies resist your shit a lot only if you choose spells at random without knowing what you are doing. Every boss and miniboss in the first three chapters can be easily dispatched targeting its Will saving.

 

[Haplo]

Agree with Hap that Octavia is not worse than full Wizard, but depending on what you're looking for not purely better either.

Jesus Christ, that's exactly what I was saying.

I'm not saying that the AT is straight up better, I'm just saying that it's not straight up worse.

It is a shift in focus from in this order utility/buffing/CC/damage to be more focused on damage and rogue utlity though of course they can still do some buffing/debuffing/CC but many slots are basically now reserved for damage spells or the specialization was pointless.

Not really. I mean sure, 1/4 to 1/3 of my slots is dedicated to nuking till late game. But I imagine it wouldn't be that much different if I used a straight Wizard. Otherwise it's mostly Conjuration CC - Grease, Glitterdust, Create Pitt and upgrades, Stinking Cloud, Chains of Light plus Phantasmal Web. Plus possibly Enlarge and occasionally Haste and Slow.

The big difference is that when I'm not casting CC, Octavia's autoattacks do 30-40 damage rather then d4 and actually meaningfully contribute. And her rays become deadly on demand.

 

[Sykar]

Agree with Hap that Octavia is not worse than full Wizard, but depending on what you're looking for not purely better either.

Jesus Christ, that's exactly what I was saying.

I'm not saying that the AT is straight up better, I'm just saying that it's not straight up worse.

It is a shift in focus from in this order utility/buffing/CC/damage to be more focused on damage and rogue utlity though of course they can still do some buffing/debuffing/CC but many slots are basically now reserved for damage spells or the specialization was pointless.

Not really. I mean sure, 1/4 to 1/3 of my slots is dedicated to nuking till late game. But I imagine it wouldn't be that much different if I used a straight Wizard. Otherwise it's mostly Conjuration CC - Grease, Glitterdust, Create Pitt and upgrades, Stinking Cloud, Chains of Light plus Phantasmal Web. Plus possibly Enlarge and occasionally Haste and Slow.

The big difference is that when I'm not casting CC, Octavia's autoattacks do 30-40 damage rather then d4 and actually meaningfully contribute. And her rays become deadly on demand.

I guess you are not using "Proper Flanking" mod then.

And yet I still easily pick Greater Penetration and Greater Focus Conjuration on Octavia. Could rather easily pick 2nd Greater Focus, but don't see much reason to. Also have Heighten and probably also some other metamagic (Empower?). Don't really have any particular meaningful feats I'm missing. Toughness? Come on. Well, I guess Shatter wouldn't be bad and would require a slight sacrifice.

She has con 8. Especially early and mig game she hardly gets above 30 hitpoints which means she is fodder for any fireball or lightning strike that hits your group and she is at risk of being instantly downed. Toughness considering her abysmal con is a roughly 25% HP increase early on increasing her survivability substantially. There are random encounters where you are completely encircled and are at risk that she is immediatly targeted. Without toughness she can go down in a single hit. With it she is far more likely to survive maybe even two. It is somewhat less later but still around 10% depending on how much con you get from items.

 

[NJClaw]

[...] Create Pitt [...]

This took me more time than I care to admit...

 

[Daidre]

I guess you are not using "Proper Flanking" mod then.

AT still has Greater Invisibility that is much more reliable for AoE sneaks with Chain Lightning and Stormbolts and gets this spell pretty early (and compatible Extend rod too). And for endgame, I've never encountered a creature un-sneakable with Impromptu Sneak attack class feature on.

 

[Sykar]

I guess you are not using "Proper Flanking" mod then.

AT still has Greater Invisibility that is much more reliable for AoE sneaks with Chain Lightning and Stormbolts and gets this spell pretty early (and compatible Extend rod too). And for endgame, I've never encountered a creature un-sneakable with Impromptu Sneak attack class feature on.

That is not the point. Proper Flanking closes the cheese to use up to 12d6 SA on Cantrips 24/7 whenever a melee is next to an enemy. Furthermore Proper Flanking also introduces soft cover, which is another +4 AC for enemies in melee combat with someone else unless you position yourself in a way that the line of your target is unobstructed. This in turns means you have to be much more thoughtful when it comes to positioning. While some people complain that the AI does not really know about it, there are not that many SA attackers anyway plus it ultimately makes it more difficult for you to get SA especially in tight areas where you cannot easily get your SA attacker behind enemy lines or into a good flanking position. Ultimately the mod does a lot more good than harm. If someone will ever make a better AI which recognizes the change then this mod will be perfect and a complete must have for me. This is far more interesting than cranking it up to Unfair which is fucking boring. It makes flanking and utilizing SA much less brain dead.
Oh and II lasts only rounds/level making it fairly short lived.Forgot to mention that AoE sneak attacks are not available until level 14. That is if you started to level AT right at level 5.

 

[mediocrepoet]

That does not leave much for good feats like Toughness

Is this for real?

 

[Sykar]

Like it or not, some people like Toughness on squishy casters who can kiss the dirt whenever a random AoE hits the party.

 

[Daidre]

That is not the point. Proper Flanking closes the cheese to use up to 12d6 SA on Cantrips 24/7 whenever a melee is next to an enemy.

So you count maximum version of round/level long Sense Vitals in "24/7 Cantrip Cheese" but II with same duration is suddenly "short lived"?

And praise the "proper flanking" that nerfs all enemy archers and rogues into dust at the same time? When fights from Ratnook Hill in chapter 1 and up to the half of the Wild Hunt and Ghosts in chapters 6-7 rely mostly on enemy's sneaks?
Wow.

 

[NJClaw]

And yet I still easily pick Greater Penetration and Greater Focus Conjuration on Octavia. Could rather easily pick 2nd Greater Focus, but don't see much reason to. Also have Heighten and probably also some other metamagic (Empower?). Don't really have any particular meaningful feats I'm missing. Toughness? Come on. Well, I guess Shatter wouldn't be bad and would require a slight sacrifice.

She has con 8. Especially early and mig game she hardly gets above 30 hitpoints which means she is fodder for any fireball or lightning strike that hits your group and she is at risk of being instantly downed. Toughness considering her abysmal con is a roughly 25% HP increase early on increasing her survivability substantially. There are random encounters where you are completely encircled and are at risk that she is immediatly targeted. Without toughness she can go down in a single hit. With it she is far more likely to survive maybe even two. It is somewhat less later but still around 10% depending on how much con you get from items.

I'm long over the 4 digits playtime mark in Kingmaker and not once my back line casters have been targeted by enemies in a random encounter, even while I was surrounded. Enemies always come from three distinct directions and you can focus on two of them with your melee guys while instantly annihilating the third group with ranged spells/attacks. Even when you are surrounded and enemies appear near your group (fights like the elementals random encounter or some dangerous manticore ones), enemies keep their focus on the character that engages them in melee. Enemies are completely retarded: they are only interested in the guy you keep in the front of your group. Hopefully, WotR will improve this behavior.

During my first playthrough I got fucked in the ass in a couple of ambushes (during areas exploration, not random encounters), but they were all during the last chapters of the game (stuff like the rats in Irovetti's palace) and Toughness would have changed nothing.

 

[Lawntoilet]

[Enemies are completely retarded: they are only interested in the guy you keep in the front of your group. Hopefully, WotR will improve this behavior.

My backline has definitely gotten rushed/targeted by SA archers in the alpha, AI overall definitely seems improved.

I have so many questions, the first of which is: have you even played the game?

In fairness to PorkyThePaladin I believe he has beaten the game (maybe even on Unfair? He posted his achievement list at some point) which is probably why he gets mad and rants about inflated stats in these threads so often, flying into such a frothing and rabid fury of butthurt that he can't formulate a sicker burn than "Shitmaker bad".
You did make good points in your response to him though.

 

[Pink Eye]

No. He did not beat it on Unfair.

 

[Lawntoilet]

No. He did not beat it on Unfair.

I seem to remember him posting his achievement list, maybe it wasn't the Unfair achievement but it was one from beating the game.
Could've also just been a shoop I suppose but he seems butthurt enough that he rage-played the game and regrets it.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

A class balance should not be considered with a mod in mind unless we are discussing modded games.

As is in the base game, AT is flatly more useable than full Wizard simply due to sneak attacks. For some specific instance full Wizard might have some advantages but all in all, there is 0 reason not to play AT.

Even with proper flanking (which like TB mod basically neuters enemies and makes the game easier simply because the enemies are dumbfuck who play with a different thought process, namely RtWP and free sneak attack), with extended Greater Invisibility AT is still damned good. For those important fight having Impromptu Sneak Attack are also good even with Proper Flanking.