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Longshanks

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^^Water chip = optional
Motivation = survival after being forced out of the vault
Dealing with The Master != motivational premise


Edward_R_Murrow said:
Bingo. It's the Gorion effect. It's hard to care about a character you have no background with and have just been introduced to 5 minutes ago. Better game drama is when a character you have been exposed to for a long time dies/betrays you/gets eaten, and more importantly, a useful character.
Correct in theory, but this is Bioware, your likely to feel much less attachment (wanting them dead less) to a character you've had more exposure to.
 

Volourn

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"^^Water chip = optional
Motivation = survival after being forced out of the vault
Dealing with The Master != motivational premise"

You are an idiot.

FO's entire plot is based first around the water chip/saving V13. That's the motivation the game gives you.
 

Shannow

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Hamster said:
Shannow said:
Now I seldomly care about characters that I don't know. If they get killid off, so what. But I don't whine about it. And I don't judge whether or not the fictional fates of game characters will touch me before I have played the game. I certainly won't post pathetic "fail" jibes at poeple who do not agree with me. (I'm looking at you, rodent.)
Yoh have just used two most common and stupid bio fanboys excuses - "you haven't played the game yet" and "why do you whine?!". How about trying to understand other people's position instead?
You asked why you should care about characters. Why their loss should motivate you to do anything. I answered with another question. Why you should care about any device devs use to motivate you. Which should have made you realise that the problem is entirely yours and your taste's. Instead of asking unconstructive questions you should either have stated what kind of motivation you'd like to see in a game or how they should change their motivational device to make the game better in your opinion. If enough people agree with you the devs might pick up on the ideas and make a game that you like better.
Instead you whine: Bioware is making a Bioware game. A game they and their customers/target demographic consider good. You're not part of that demographic. Whine, whine. Reminds me of the guy who started liking "RPGs" only when Diablo was released.

Oh, and I'm as far removed from being a Bioware fanboy as you are from showing a semblance of intelligence (read: Very, very, very far).
 

kris

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Volourn said:
FO's entire plot is based first around the water chip/saving V13. That's the motivation the game gives you.

But the game isn't completely rvolving around the plot. Survival was the main motivation.

anyway, what is in these backgrounds (and BG) is no different from your average action movie were the family of the action hero is shot off in the first minutes of the movie. Or kidnapped. this just goes to show this more in line with a action movie than with a drama that goes way more into exploring feelings.
 

feighnt

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Messages
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skyway said:
Longshanks said:
skyway said:
Water chip - optional?
Yes. You do not need to find the water chip.

Doesn't V13's population die if you don't do that which results in a "game over"?

i've not tried, but from looking at the largest faq for the game on gamefaqs, it says that, no, you dont need to get the water chip - as long as you finish off the mutants before the 150 day limit (unsure/forget if the 100 extra days you can get count or not, since i had thought doing so, after you get the chip, lowers the unstated time limit before the mutants invade the vault).

so, presumably, mutant death is a thirst quencher. :P
 

Xor

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The plot initially focused on getting the water chip, but you don't have to get it to finish the game. You can go straight to the Cathedral and Military Base, blow them up, and the game ends as normal. Probably an oversight more than anything else, but there you go.


i've not tried, but from looking at the largest faq for the game on gamefaqs, it says that, no, you dont need to get the water chip - as long as you finish off the mutants before the 150 day limit (unsure/forget if the 100 extra days you can get count or not, since i had thought doing so, after you get the chip, lowers the unstated time limit before the mutants invade the vault).

Gamefaqs is shit, read Per Jorner's Nearly Ultimate Guide to Fallout if you want real information. Also, the timer for the mutants invading Vault 13 was removed in the official patch.
 

Volourn

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"You're not part of that demographic."

Sure, he is. The entire Codex is. They'r ejust 'too cool' to admit.

And, no, you don't need the waterchip to 'win' the game. But, to claim it is part of the main motivation given to you by the creators is silly. That's the motivation your character has even if you can end up ignoring it.
 

Hamster

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Ok now, arguing with retard such as Shannow is obviously pointless, i have no time to explain anything to a person who is on oblivion fanboy level with his "stop whining" responces.

But i think i have to clarify my vision of the problem.

First of all, i believe that any ingame motivation is only a secondary element. The most important motivation is player's interest in the game, his determination to see what will come next. I don't play the game because i am really emotionaly motivated to find the dark crystal and save the realm of Arcanium, i play it because i want to see more of the game. I dont' leave the vault because i am really concerned about water running out, but becasue i want to see the interesting game world. That is the main motivation. Ingame motivation, like vault and the water chip or assasins trying to kill you, is just a way to tie your character to the story. And as ingame motivation is a secondary element, game can function without it. Your idea for a prologue worked, player really felt worried about Vault 13? Great. Your idea did't work, player didn't gave a fuck about Vault 13? No problem, it's not what your game was about, main motivation of seeing what your game have to offer is not diminished because of it.
And thats why, i see any attempts to give more meaning to ingame motivaton as harmfull. All this drama developers come up with when giving you ingame relatives, sisters, fathers, is just not important compared to main motivation - interest in the game, it cannot replace it. What it can do, is interfere with player's freedom to define his character. By prescripting too much of the character developers turn the game about players' character to interactive movie about the character they gave to the player.

About Gorion effect. As Edward_R_Murrow already said, it just dont' work. Player won't start caring about characters and events developers presented him in the origin story just because developers told him to. Interesting player in events such as treachery or spoiled wedding requires much longer and well thought build up which is extremely hard to realise during short prologue. Yes, ability to choose from six different heavily scripted origins is better than just one you are stuck with in many games, but it just saddens me that they wasted a good idea.

I hope it explains why i see no sense in questions such as "But you didn't care about Vault 13 also, why are whining now?!". Yes, i didn't care, i was not supposed to, it was just a way to get the game started and a minimum required to move the story forward. Any game must have a start, an end and a main plot, but presence of these elements in no way justifies overuse of rails, how some people make it look like.
Please, don't compare water chip, which is a minimum required for a game to function to Trans-Siberian railways of many other games.

P.S. I hope my post was not too incomprehensible :oops:
 

MetalCraze

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feighnt said:
skyway said:
Longshanks said:
skyway said:
Water chip - optional?
Yes. You do not need to find the water chip.

Doesn't V13's population die if you don't do that which results in a "game over"?

i've not tried, but from looking at the largest faq for the game on gamefaqs, it says that, no, you dont need to get the water chip - as long as you finish off the mutants before the 150 day limit (unsure/forget if the 100 extra days you can get count or not, since i had thought doing so, after you get the chip, lowers the unstated time limit before the mutants invade the vault).

so, presumably, mutant death is a thirst quencher. :P

Well I know that. Yet it is just an alternative way - kinda to get things done before time runs out. The chip is still needed though.
 

Volourn

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"About Gorion effect. As Edward_R_Murrow already said, it just dont' work."

Except, it did work.


"I dont' leave the vault because i am relly concerned about water running out, but becasue i want to see the interesting game world."

That's the lamest copout 'motivation' ever as it can be used for any game ever. Such a motivation that's based solely on opinion is useless to determine what is good or bad motivation since its different and effects players differently.
 

Hamster

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Volourn said:
"About Gorion effect. As Edward_R_Murrow already said, it just dont' work."

Except, it did work.
Yes, i forgot we have you. I should have written "it almost never works", i agree.
 

NOVD

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The death of Gorion was just some motivation to get the story going. I didn't cry or feel particularly saddened when Gorion died. I did feel like going to the next city to meet his friends, however. It did get me interested in Sarevok.

Let me propose an alternative definition for the Gorion Effect. The Gorion Effect is the tendency of people to entirely misunderstand the purpose of a particular plot device.
 

AlanC9

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Joined
Aug 12, 2003
Messages
505
Hamster said:
And thats why, i see any attempts to give more meaning to ingame motivaton as harmfull. All this drama developers come up with when giving you ingame relatives, sisters, fathers, is just not important compared to main motivation - interest in the game, it cannot replace it. What it can do, is interfere with player's freedom to define his character. By prescripting too much of the character developers turn the game about players' character to interactive movie about the character they gave to the player.

So how'd you feel about PS:T?

As for the Gorion effect, so far we've got it not working for you and Murrow. But it does work for a lot of people. So unless we're elevating your personal tastes into some sort of RPG Design Principle, the point eludes me.
 

Hamster

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AlanC9 said:
Hamster said:
And thats why, i see any attempts to give more meaning to ingame motivaton as harmfull. All this drama developers come up with when giving you ingame relatives, sisters, fathers, is just not important compared to main motivation - interest in the game, it cannot replace it. What it can do, is interfere with player's freedom to define his character. By prescripting too much of the character developers turn the game about players' character to interactive movie about the character they gave to the player.

So how'd you feel about PS:T?

I feel great about it, they took some freedom to define his character from the player, but not too much. And for what they took, they compensated with great story.

As for the Gorion effect, so far we've got it not working for you and Murrow.
But it does work for a lot of people
Oh, please, working for a lot of people? Are you going to tell me majority of people cried when Gorion died or when that middle-aged guy left the vault?
 

Volourn

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"Oh, please, working for a lot of people? Are you going to tell me majority of people cried when Gorion died"

Since when is crying the only determination of whether it worked or not? That's retarded.
 

Longshanks

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897
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Volourn said:
"I dont' leave the vault because i am relly concerned about water running out, but becasue i want to see the interesting game world."

That's the lamest copout 'motivation' ever as it can be used for any game ever.
Yes, it is lame. But, also not true. Everyone actually leaves the vault because they are forced out, no motivation needed.

After leaving it's up to the player to decide if they're really interested in this water chip thing. The choice to force the player out of the vault, rather than having him accept a request to find the chip, is a deliberate one, to purposely not force a motivation on the player, or a personality on the character.

Of course, as you say, "save the vault" is a motivation, but you or your character are not forced to care about it, as it's optional. The game does not give any indication of how the Vault Dweller feels about the vault, whereas the loving relationship between Gorion and his godly ward is spelt out quite clearly. In one, you are expected to care about some old guy that your character loves, but you barely know. In the other, you are forced out of the vault on a mission you are able to ignore, with no feelings forced upon your character.
 

Hamster

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Longshanks said:
Yes, it is lame. But, also not true. Everyone actually leaves the vault because they are forced out, no motivation needed.
I was refering to the moment where the game starts, with VD already standing outside the vault and player taking control of the game, not VD being appoined for the task.
I was talking about the player, and you are talking about VD's background.

After leaving it's up to the player to decide if they're really interested in this water chip thing. The choice to force the player out of the vault, rather than having him accept a request to find the chip, is a deliberate one, to purposely not force a motivation on the player, or a personality on the character.
Of course, as you say, "save the vault" is a motivation, but you or your character are not forced to care about it, as it's optional. The game does not give any indication of how the Vault Dweller feels about the vault, whereas the loving relationship between Gorion and his godly ward is spelt out quite clearly. In one, you are expected to care about some old guy that your character loves, but you barely know. In the other, you are forced out of the vault on a mission you are able to ignore, with no feelings forced upon your character.
Thats 100% correct. I highlighted the most important part.
 
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I should probably be finding news rather than doing this....but what the hell.

AlanC9 said:
As for the Gorion effect, so far we've got it not working for you and Murrow. But it does work for a lot of people. So unless we're elevating your personal tastes into some sort of RPG Design Principle, the point eludes me.

Doesn't matter how many people it worked for, it's bad writing plain and simple, and in any sort of medium. Introducing a character 5 minutes into the story, killing them a few minutes later, and expecting some sort of emotional connection from the audience/players is ludicrous. Things like that take time. Take Mad Max for example. Would Goose getting effectively "killed" have been nearly as poignant if they had killed him a few minutes after introducing him? Would anyone care if he had not been a major character for a majority of the movie, and his friendship with Max not shown at all?

It's the reason "red-shirt" deaths mean so little; they have no background,no time, no familiarity. All you have is a few bits of kitschy background, not enough to give half a shit about them.

feighnt said:
i think everyone knows perfectly well that this game is likely to have few choices/meaningful choices - rather, it will focus on telling a central story. and, frankly, i see nothing necessarily wrong with this, there's clearly a place in the video gaming world for games of this type, and it doesnt make them bad per se (what makes them bad is if they're done poorly).

I'd have to disagree. "Bioware-style RPG" is a flawed formula. It sucks the story interactivity out out of the RPG, and Bioware does their best to suck out the gameplay interactivity, at least in most post-BG titles. What's left? Poor writing, shiny graphics, and a lot of railroading through piss-easy combat. That's a bad formula. I wouldn't mind it existing for the people who enjoy it, but unfortunately it dominates a large portion of the market, choking out the games I like.

if one judges a game (or whatever) to be bad, they ought to judge it more on its own terms, rather than due to the simple fact that it is not the sort of thing they like

That sounds like some post-modern "it's good at being what it is" bullshit. I judge an RPG next to every RPG, see what it does well, what it doesn't, and render a judgment. Take Wizardry 8. Great combat, cool puzzles, amazing depth, but pretty poor writing, and no choices and consequences of any real merit. I found it amazing. I don't have some universal standards, per se; I just want things to tick off enough boxes in the "amazing", "great", and "good" features category to make up for the shitty parts.

As long as a game can bring something compelling, something worthy, I can enjoy it, and find it good. That's where my problem with a lot of Bioware's titles come up. They take away so much for their vaunted drama and stories, but it's a waste. They sacrifice player choice, but don't deliver a story worth that sacrifice. PS:T took away a lot of freedom, but it had a damn fine reason to do so; a damn fine story, characters, and setting. Same with Bloodlines. But Bioware games like NWN, KOTOR, and Jade Empire don't do this. They sacrifice something good to emphasize something bad. That's a major reason why people here don't take too kindly to Bioware.

Dionysus said:
From my understanding, you would choose a different origin if you want a different backstory for your character.

I think this sounds pretty good so far. You can complain that there are only six options, but that variety is better than the one option that you get with most RPGs. Although they probably should have thrown in a generic lost-memory/fresh-out-of-prison origin that is available to any race.

Like I said in the other thread, I think the backgrounds are kinda weak, since they all inevitably funnel into becoming a Grey Warden and saving the world. Likely, after the "choose your own prologue" origin story, the only time background will be referenced is in some flavor text, or maybe a unique quest; kinda like the way Mass Effect handled them. I'd prefer traits that have gameplay attributes like dialogue checks, alternative quest solutions, faction influence, and such to the boring drama-fest that Bioware's backgrounds seem to be. Something like Cyclopean's backgrounds would be nice too, but Bioware won't do that, and it's unrealistic to expect that from them.

Shannow said:
How did the assassin chasing me make me care for Gorion?

Errr....maybe I mixed my words up? Like above, few people would really care about Gorion because he walked on stage, then promptly was killed off. I kinda went into a tangential from there, saying that personal survival is probably a better motivating factor seeing as it is pretty universal.

You may have been the prince's bitch. I never felt compelled to do anything in bloodlines.

I kinda thought the whole idea of him dominating you, while kinda cheesy in a way, was a pretty clever way to push his missions forth, and "forced" motivation on the player. Just me though.

Do you really want to be forced into a role or be chased by assassins in every single fucking game?

Not really, but just the same, I suppose every game has to have some set things, some things predetermined before the player enters the world. I guess I'm just a little tired of Bioware's cliches.

Now I seldomly care about characters that I don't know. If they get killid off, so what. But I don't whine about it. And I don't judge whether or not the fictional fates of game characters will touch me before I have played the game.

I just think it's poor writing, that's all. And I'd rather Bioware focus their efforts on something other than these backstories which seem to be gimmicky nonsense like Vault 101 in Fallout 3.
 

feighnt

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just responding to the parts addressed to me.

Edward_R_Murrow said:
feighnt said:
i think everyone knows perfectly well that this game is likely to have few choices/meaningful choices - rather, it will focus on telling a central story. and, frankly, i see nothing necessarily wrong with this, there's clearly a place in the video gaming world for games of this type, and it doesnt make them bad per se (what makes them bad is if they're done poorly).

I'd have to disagree. "Bioware-style RPG" is a flawed formula. It sucks the story interactivity out out of the RPG, and Bioware does their best to suck out the gameplay interactivity, at least in most post-BG titles. What's left? Poor writing, shiny graphics, and a lot of railroading through piss-easy combat. That's a bad formula. I wouldn't mind it existing for the people who enjoy it, but unfortunately it dominates a large portion of the market, choking out the games I like.

if one judges a game (or whatever) to be bad, they ought to judge it more on its own terms, rather than due to the simple fact that it is not the sort of thing they like

That sounds like some post-modern "it's good at being what it is" bullshit. I judge an RPG next to every RPG, see what it does well, what it doesn't, and render a judgment. Take Wizardry 8. Great combat, cool puzzles, amazing depth, but pretty poor writing, and no choices and consequences of any real merit. I found it amazing. I don't have some universal standards, per se; I just want things to tick off enough boxes in the "amazing", "great", and "good" features category to make up for the shitty parts.

As long as a game can bring something compelling, something worthy, I can enjoy it, and find it good. That's where my problem with a lot of Bioware's titles come up. They take away so much for their vaunted drama and stories, but it's a waste. They sacrifice player choice, but don't deliver a story worth that sacrifice. PS:T took away a lot of freedom, but it had a damn fine reason to do so; a damn fine story, characters, and setting. Same with Bloodlines. But Bioware games like NWN, KOTOR, and Jade Empire don't do this. They sacrifice something good to emphasize something bad. That's a major reason why people here don't take too kindly to Bioware.

ok, i think this is a perfectly fair argument. for the record, i dont believe i was trying for the "post modern bullshit" idea you mentioned - i was mostly trying to suggest that, as there are multiple genres of games out there, there are multiple approaches to rpgs which *can* be effective - personally, i have no problem with the more story/drama centered type, as long as the writing manages to be genuinely engaging.

but, to a large degree, i was being devil's advocate, as i find myself *hating* most of the games from the "story/drama" rpg, particularly because most of them have *dreadful* writing. i particularly feel this way concerning most jrpgs (sorry, i know lots of people here wouldnt even consider them rpgs, etc etc) - but i've also felt... unsatisfied... with bioware. while i *do* obviously enjoy some of their games more than lots of the people here, i usually feel let down by the writing/plot of the game, which makes the experience feel rather empty for me afterwards (and, try as they might to put romance in their games, boy does it ever turn out poorly). and, yes, the gameplay lacks the complexity to make up for the poor writing (i'm obviously in the minority here, but i think that a *lot* of the writing in Bloodlines is absolutely dreadful, really cheesy. but the gameplay is complex enough to make it a fun experience, and there are decently written bits in there, which smoothes out the edges).

i think pessimism, for this new game, is understandable. i mostly just find it to be hateful that so many people are jumping on tiny paragraphs of information as "proof" that the game is terrible (especially considering that many of the people making these comments havent even bothered to read the whole thing, just the truncated summaries that gamebanshee stated), and i think it best to wait till the game's actually out and someone's actually played it before everyone gangs up on it and talks about how terrible it is. lots of people have been pissed with bioware, as of late, but there seem to be a fair number of fans of some of their earlier stuff, like Baldur's Gate (which i havent played myself so i cant comment) - IF they made some decent titles in the past, it's clearly possible they could make them in the future.
 

Hamster

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feighnt said:
and i think it best to wait till the game's actually out and someone's actually played it before everyone gangs up on it and talks about how terrible it is.
Do you know that codex have a long history with this argument? Oh, memories... :)

Edit: heh, i just realised that it will be almost 10 years since BG2 release when DA comes out. And even with all shortcomings it will most likely have, it so far still looks better than any post-BG2 bio's game. So, it can proudly be named bio's best creation in a decade.
 

Volourn

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"In one, you are expected to care about some old guy that your character loves"

Nope. Not really. You could be motivated by the fact that you have assassins trying to kill you. That's your real motivation.
 

DarkUnderlord

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Who is it that keeps thinking building entire websites in Flash is a good idea? It's not. No really, it's never a good idea.
 

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