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Eating my own words: Geneforge 5 is pretty good

nomask7

Arcane
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
7,620
PorkaMorka said:
Why do you think you don't have to think about your moves in Vogel's games? Play GF5 on hard, and it's pretty obvious moves matter once you can make a couple of creations (that is, pretty much right from the beginning).

You do, of course have to think about it a little. But his games have been very poor in terms of tactical combat from what little I've played and his quote illustrates for me that this is partially due to a lack of effort/desire to make the combat tactical or interesting.

However, as with other RPGs, the combat ain't chess. You don't, as a rule, have to think about your moves more than a second or a fraction of a second. That's true of every RPG I've played. There simply isn't much to think about in battles where you can control only a few different characters, each of which has a specific, simple function (healer, fireball guy, archer, here's-Johnny). RPGs aren't tactical games, period.

You've been playing rather bad RPGs if you never got wiped out by a boss and had to reload, stop and think about a tactic to beat him. RPGs would really be an awful genre of games if they were as you make them out to be, games where you purely win or lose based on luck.


BG2? Sure, unless you've played AD&D before, in which case your brain is constantly on autopilot in the combat encounters. The excitement of a challenging battle is always fake in BG2, because the excitement really comes from the randomness. How can you even use tactics, when anything can happen? It doesn't matter how carefully you think about your moves: one unlikely miss and a challenging fight becomes impossible. The game doesn't really have challenging fights: if the battle is balanced, ie, if your opponent is about as powerful as you are, you either win or lose based on nothing except random chance.

While I'm no fan of excessive randomness, you're wrong if you think that tactics do not play a role in games where there is a random element in the success or failure of character attacks and actions.

Most "tactical" games have a random element, such as a percent chance to hit with your sniper rifle, and you have to factor that into your decisions on how you use your troops. BG2 is no different, although it's overall not particularly deep in terms of tactics, you do need to use some.

While you can lasso and click for most of the trash fights (not necessarily a bad thing) you have to think (a little) and form basic plans for many of the boss or "big" fights. A plan that takes into account that spells can fail as can attacks, and factors in that randomness, similar to how in say Combat Mission, you have to take into account the fact that all your panzers might miss.

Unless you really overpowered your characters, you most likely had to think up some tactics to beat Saverok at the end of BG1, not just lasso and click.

Tactics, being simply the direction and maneuver of military units, is almost an essential element of party based RPGs. Really, the only time I've seen a party based, non real time game entirely do away with tactics, is KOTOR2, where you could simply autoattack/AI fight your way through the game (at least for the first several levels, after which I stopped).
Boss fights in GF5 are precisely where you have to actually spend some time thinking about your tactics, and very possibly reload as a result of failed tactics. Concerning RPGs and randomness and tactics in general, I don't necessarily disagree with you much, but I also can't escape the feeling that 50% of the time I didn't reload in those games because there was something wrong with my tactics, but because the fight just happened to go badly and I was hoping for better luck "this time", which I often got. The other 50% were because I hadn't prepared properly, not really because I had used bad tactics per se (rather, bad strategy, if you will). Maybe 0.1% of the time it was bad tactics on my part. I've also never really been a fan of poker, whereas in chess there is no randomness or room for randomness. Of course, the lure of poker is money, or rather, "maybe winning lots of money", and game sharks have evolved to be very good at suspending that "maybe". The need for randomness in games that involve no money prizes comes when the tactics as such are too simple to hold the player's interest. So you need some additional spice, which randomness provides.

Another point: how much of a meaningful tactics game can a game really be, when you can always, in the case of a difficult encounter, leave and come back more powerful than before? There would have to be some in-game costs or changes of game world for such activity, and for too much tarrying in general. Of course, from what I've heard, Wizardry 8 (or rather, I suppose, some earlier Wizardry) solved that by using a very good system of level-scaling and related mechanics. That was to be expected and very much hoped for, since it's basically a combat tactics game like ToEE. Apart from Wizardry and 7th Saga, has any apparent RPG ever done anything successful to solve the dilemma which often appears in the form of a short dialog:

"I will come back when I can beat you, just wait here, OK?"
"OK."

I think the answer is basically no, there aren't many other such RPGs, and no such real RPGs whatsoever. The reason for that, I think, is that in actual role playing games, the focus isn't on combat, and one of the popular core conventions of the genre is that you are able to return to beat up the baddy or his minions once you've gotten powerful enough to do so.

EDIT: BG2 isn't even poker. The truth is, you can't factor in a chance of 50%. You always know if there is a truly balanced fight that you're going to win or lose and that the chances for either outcome are pretty much even. You just can't tell how badly you're going to lose—or win, which is what makes it interesting, for a while.
 

nomask7

Arcane
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
7,620
Also, to add to my previous post, I doubt you're going to spend time factoring in different chances to hit or different probabilities for different amounts of damage for such hits when playing BG2 or Wizardry or anything else—if your fighter has a 40% chance-to-hit, you're going to try to hit anyway, since there isn't, generally speaking, anything else useful the fighter can do. Of course, in the case of weak characters, such as thieves, who can't do much damage even when they hit, you might just "defend" instead of "attack", but that's about it as far as thinking about probabilities goes.
 

Thrasher

Erudite
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
1,407
Determining whether to hit or not is not a tactic.

There were quite a few A5 boss fights that required significantly different tactics, though. And certain standard enemy types were best handled by different tactics.

It certainly wasn't nearly as tactical as IWD on HoW mode .;)
 

Trash

Pointing and laughing.
Joined
Dec 12, 2002
Messages
29,683
Location
About 8 meters beneath sea level.
The Avernum games always had some amazing boss battles. The most memorable for me remains the one where my party fought an imperial commander who OD'd himself on speed potions on purpose. His henchman were killed easily, but he just kept on dishing out damage with an insane amount of attacks while casting healing spells on himself. When I finally killed the sob there was a rather gruesome description how the commander's body teared itself apart due to the sheer speed in which it moved. Vogel is the awesome and so are his games.
 

nomask7

Arcane
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
7,620
Thrasher said:
Determining whether to hit or not is not a tactic.
It's thinking, which is what I'm interested in. In the context of this discussion, it's thinking that has something to do with how interesting the combat is, because if you don't have to think about whether to hit or not, there better be something else you have to think about. It's also tactical thinking, inasmuch as the result is a means to an end or a part of such a means. Instead of "attacking", you might choose to continually "defend" with your gadgeteer in Wizardry 8, in which case it's part of keeping your character in good health, and you might call it a tactic or not, I don't really care.

Unrelated to the above... The usual trick is to concentrate on one enemy at a time instead of scattering your strikes so that every enemy is left a little bit hurt but not one of them is dead. So when the next round begins, there will be one less enemy that can damage your party. Of course, sometimes you might want to attack multiple enemies in one round, if the enemies are weak. Sometimes you might have to change focus before you've managed to kill the previous target, for example if one of the enemies is bothering your wizard. When there is one strong enemy and several weak enemies, you'll have to decide which you want to kill first. All very yawn yawn as such.

I guess what sometimes makes battles in such games interesting, apart from unpredictability, is the context in which they take place, so that after the battle you have to decide whether to use an expensive healing potion now or try your luck in yet another battle and maybe find some place to rest after that. In the latter case you might have to use the potion in the middle of a fight, effectively wasting a turn; or you might not have to use it all, and might find a place to rest, saving the potion. I like the fact that in GF5 you can't buy lots of potions even if you have the money. On the other hand, you can always easily travel back to town to rest, assuming you've already cleared the areas on the way. Nothing has been done to change that popular convention, as far as I know. (Of course, in Wizardry and 7th Saga it's not so easy. The shortest and usually the best way back to town in 7th Saga is death. You lose money, but you don't lose your jewellery, which you can change back to money without suffering any financial loss. So there's a sort of loophole even in 7th Saga, although the travel back to where you were is ... well, you'd rather not have died.)
 

Thrasher

Erudite
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
1,407
I consider most of those sort of "tactics" really sort of "low ball" or the "nearly braindead" minimum to keep my interest.

What really gets me excited is when there are different kinds of attacks and defenses that work best with some foes and not so well with others. And having to figure these out on your own (without having to resort to walkthroughs or game forums)...

That's interesting, and requires observation and thinking.
 

elander_

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,015
That's the entire point of playing dungeon crawlers or games that are dungeon crawlers disguised with a story.

See Bards Tale 2 for instance it has an absurd amount of spells, monsters, equipment and attack moves with special critical hits.

http://bardstale.poverellomedia.com/the ... pells.html

http://bardstale.poverellomedia.com/the ... items.html

Monsters can affect your character in many ways.

1st Number 2nd Number

1 = Easy 0 = Regular Attack 5 = Drain Level
2 = Medium 1 = Cast Spells 6 = Cause Insanity
3 = Hard 2 = Breath Fire/frost 7 = Possessed
4 = Very Hard 3 = Phaze Spell Point 8 = Critical Hit
5 = Dangerous 4 = Poison 9 = Turn To Stone

Your party has to discover the best way to handle these attacks and this is done by experimentation because the manual only says what these spells do not what is the best way to use them.

These kind of games require some thinking and experimentation but they are also fun for the constantly changing game space always giving the player new "puzzles" to solve. Seeing these games as tactical is missing the point of what their gameplay is about.
 

Raapys

Arcane
Joined
Jun 7, 2007
Messages
4,960
I must be doing something wrong. I'm using a mage and usually have two creatures with me, and I'm constantly finding difficult battles that force me to return to town after one or two of them. And when I met an Unbound, he killed my entire party before I could even get a spell off. What class and summons are you guys using to have it so easy?
 

Monocause

Arcane
Joined
Aug 15, 2008
Messages
3,656
Raapys said:
I must be doing something wrong. I'm using a mage and usually have two creatures with me, and I'm constantly finding difficult battles that force me to return to town after one or two of them. And when I met an Unbound, he killed my entire party before I could even get a spell off. What class and summons are you guys using to have it so easy?

What creations do you use? And having only two when playing a shaper/lifecrafter is a waste of resources, unless you mean two creatures from the third or fourth tier.

I advise against holding on to creations. Levelling a drayk makes some sense, but levelling up a cryoa doesn't. If you're able to make better creations than the ones you have, do it. Also use some meatshield tactics - thahds are an excellent way to distract enemies from your PC and heavyhitter creations and they're real cheap, don't bother with these two intelligent points. If you buff them before the fight, they may even dish out some damage depending on how far in the game you are.
 

Raapys

Arcane
Joined
Jun 7, 2007
Messages
4,960
I only have access to three creations atm, the first two fire-based ones and the Thad. I can buy the Clawbug, but not sure if it's worth it.

Is it preferable to just spam out as many as I can, and not waste essence on increasing their stats? I've 200'ish essence. I've been using Roamers that cost like 80 when upgraded, so I could just afford two of them as I needed some essence for spells.
 

Psilon

Erudite
Joined
Feb 15, 2003
Messages
2,018
Location
Codex retirement
The clawbug is a pretty good upgrade over the thahd, but plated clawbugs (the level 3 upgrade) can seriously mess up most enemies in the midgame with their dual attacks.
 

overtenemy

Augur
Joined
Sep 6, 2007
Messages
293
Raapys said:
I must be doing something wrong. I'm using a mage and usually have two creatures with me, and I'm constantly finding difficult battles that force me to return to town after one or two of them. And when I met an Unbound, he killed my entire party before I could even get a spell off. What class and summons are you guys using to have it so easy?

Battle creations are very strong in GF5, but if you're playing in high difficulty levels, there's no real surprise that an Unbound killed all of you. You're not supposed to be able to kill an Unbound yet. Come back later. However, if you're playing it on easier difficulty, then do this: use your essence to make a shitload of battle creations, then surround him so he doesn't use his ranged attack. Unbound melee attacks aren't particularly strong. You'll lose a bunch of creations, but you may be able to win.

But really, just come back later.
 

nomask7

Arcane
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
7,620
Thrasher said:
I consider most of those sort of "tactics" really sort of "low ball" or the "nearly braindead" minimum to keep my interest.

What really gets me excited is when there are different kinds of attacks and defenses that work best with some foes and not so well with others. And having to figure these out on your own (without having to resort to walkthroughs or game forums)...

That's interesting, and requires observation and thinking.
elander_ said:
That's the entire point of playing dungeon crawlers or games that are dungeon crawlers disguised with a story.

See Bards Tale 2 for instance it has an absurd amount of spells, monsters, equipment and attack moves with special critical hits.

http://bardstale.poverellomedia.com/the ... pells.html

http://bardstale.poverellomedia.com/the ... items.html

Monsters can affect your character in many ways.

1st Number 2nd Number

1 = Easy 0 = Regular Attack 5 = Drain Level
2 = Medium 1 = Cast Spells 6 = Cause Insanity
3 = Hard 2 = Breath Fire/frost 7 = Possessed
4 = Very Hard 3 = Phaze Spell Point 8 = Critical Hit
5 = Dangerous 4 = Poison 9 = Turn To Stone

Your party has to discover the best way to handle these attacks and this is done by experimentation because the manual only says what these spells do not what is the best way to use them.

These kind of games require some thinking and experimentation but they are also fun for the constantly changing game space always giving the player new "puzzles" to solve. Seeing these games as tactical is missing the point of what their gameplay is about.
OK, that's a good point. It's a rather trivial part of most RPGs I've played (as I noted previously), but I can imagine how it would make a party-based dungeon crawler interesting. I have to play some of those some day.
 

Raapys

Arcane
Joined
Jun 7, 2007
Messages
4,960
I bought the clawbug and just spammed out seven of them. Actually managed to defeat the unbound, even though he killed one of my creations with every shot( last creation died just as I killed him ). Needless to say, every other battle suddenly got alot easier too. Seems quantity is alot better than just having a few creations with increased stats.
 

overtenemy

Augur
Joined
Sep 6, 2007
Messages
293
Cloaked Figure said:
hahahaha!

i just destroyed the two servile independent camps. no REAL shaper would tolerate such nonsense. this whole experience has shown me what a coward and traitor astoria is. I'm gonna pay her a little visit...

Protip: if you can't kill an Unbound, you're not gonna be able to take Astoria.
 

coldcrow

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Mar 6, 2009
Messages
1,649
Yup. That's why I am very happy that J. Vogel didn't waste his ressources in some new engine. The plot design of Geneforge and Avernum has improved so much over the the series.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
Cloaked Figure said:
LARGE amount of freedom. I mean, the main quest is so god damn flexible, and I have choices WITH consequences at every turn.
Opens your eyes, doesn't it? If one guy can do it, there is absolutely no reason why large studios shouldn't be able to. The game is loaded with factions, meaningful choices, conflicts that are results of your choices, different solutions, and 0 hand holding. Don't know what to do? Figure it out.
 

Jora

Arcane
Joined
Mar 14, 2003
Messages
1,115
Location
Finland
Finished the game today. SPOLERS Initially, I sided with Trakovites who wanted to get completely rid of shaping. However, before joining the faction I had travelled across the southern wastes and done some things that are contrary to their plans. So, even after doing some horrible things in the name of a shaping-free world, the leader told me to fuck off and never come back.

Thankfully she had used her influence to mend my broken relations with the Shapers, so I approached Astoria and joined her cause. /SPOLERS

The plot is indeed extremely flexible and exciting. Vogel does things with world design, story structure, and presentation that no other developer does. Hell, would Bioware even be capable of doing something this good if they tried or wanted to? Creating huge world where everything is connected to everything and where the narrative serves the player?

And it's not just the structure. For all the talk of how grim, gritty, and dark Dragon Age is going to be, I seriously doubt it will have the moral ambiguity and quality of writing of Geneforge 5.

That said, combat is once again way too repetitive and there's too much of it.
 

Jora

Arcane
Joined
Mar 14, 2003
Messages
1,115
Location
Finland
Cloaked Figure said:
This is the first game in ages where I had to actually look at the map, study my quest book and think: "where do I want to go now?" "What is the next step in my characters adventure?"

Seconded. That's an awesome feeling.
 

Jora

Arcane
Joined
Mar 14, 2003
Messages
1,115
Location
Finland
Sorry for that. I thought I was being vague and didn't give too much away. :(
 

Thrasher

Erudite
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
1,407
I hope you have an earlier save.

You should know better than to violate the first rule of CRPGs.
 

Nim

Augur
Joined
Oct 22, 2006
Messages
447
but the entrances for the pass can only open after I kill the boss.
Lerman's Pass ? When you kill Captain Bhara you get a key that let's you leave the way you came in. No need to kill the eyebeast.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
Cloaked Figure said:
God damn it!

DoT's in this game are just TOO strong. I'm all for challenge but it has come to a point where packs of worms are stronger than bosses simply because of the fact that they use poison.

I have entered a mountain pass and I've reached the last boss. I am both poisoned, and have no potions left, but the entrances for the pass can only open after I kill the boss. So basically, I'm stuck here. Completely ridiculous.
Fail. It's a game with multiple (but sometimes not very obvious) solutions.

As for poison, use curing spells/potions otherwise you'll die quickly. In most games poison is merely an inconvenience, in Geneforge it actually kills you. Imagine that.
 

Micmu

Magister
Joined
Aug 20, 2005
Messages
6,163
Location
ALIEN BASE-3
There are at least two direct routes to get across (three, when you enter the Shaper Citadel) and you are a complete suck at this game.
I sliced my first Unbound before even entering the second half of the map. :cool:
 

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