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SW:TOR = WoW Killer, now confirmed

RK47

collides like two planets pulled by gravity
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Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
They're just using the genre hype word. Much like the Doom killer of the FPS. In MMO they call it WOW killer. More example : Diablo Killer.
 

Lockkaliber

Magister
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Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
DarkSign said:
It's amazing that you're saying everything that the EQ guys said years ago and were proven wrong.

You can say it's like comparing apples and oranges, but the underlying issues aren't. People invested years in EQ..some decades over the 2 games. Money was poured into making EQ better...just as it has with WoW. People lose interest or like the new shiny or just grow up / life happens.

You can say WoW will never stop being king, but that's incredibly short-sighted.

Not sure who you are adressing, but I only said that WoW will continue to be a major cash-cow for Blizzard for a couple of years, probably longer. Not that it will last forever. Nobody is arguing that there will exist something greater than WoW in 10 years, or even 5 years, but right now, a standard MMO (i.e offering nothing else but the same PvE, PvP, crafting and guilds formula that virtually every mmo in modern vidya history sports) will not be able to COMPETE with it, because the audience that they are trying to get, isn't attracted to WoW because it's a standard MMO experience.
 

SerratedBiz

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What I mean is that whenever a game is advertised as a WoW killer it is a somewhat safe bet to assume it won't kill WoW or steal their players. Why? Because if you want to play the same game you're more likely to keep playing the "best" game you're already paying for rather than a new game that you're not.

Fact remains that most MMOs which say they will do things a different way end up doing them the same way. The only game which actually did things both different and right, in my opinion, was Guild Wars, and less so as the expansions were introduced.
 

SerratedBiz

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Well, yes. I applaud you for your insight into the effect of time on everything in this world.
 

DarkSign

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Don't try and get snippy with me, cocktoggler.

I'm directly addressing the issue at hand. Don't stuff your dick between your legs just because you weren't specific enough with what you said.

As I've pointed out there are lots of people who kept saying there'd. Be no EQ killer ever just like it was said here there'd be no WoW killer.

Futhermore someone might validly point out that it's not impossible for sequels to WoW to keep them on top.

I'd quit while I'm ahead if I were you.
 

SerratedBiz

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You see, this is where paying attention would help you out. What I said was that I doubt ToR or any other MMO dubbed 'WoW-killer' will manage to offer gamers today anythign other than what is already out there. Starting from there, it is my belief that these MMOs will fail at taking players away from WoW and towards a game that is essentially WoW but with Wookies instead of Tauren.

The difference between WoW and EQ lies in that EQ's loss to WoW happened in a time when MMOs weren't that developed or widely available. Nowadays you have what, a hundred free MMOs to play with? And maybe five, ten, fifteen high-end P2P MMOs to choose from? WoW isn't the same as EQ and the market isn't the same today as it was then, so comparing the two seems to me like a flawed idea.

As it is, since you've done nothing to argue against my position and simply decided to go with 'one day in the future WoW players will stop playing WoW'. Nah, really? What, will Windows users switch over to Linux too? Please do not make such wild assumptions without some kind of solid backing!

So stop getting your panties in a bunch. It's impossible to talk about anything nowadays without some kid getting all riled up.
 

DarkSign

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Kid? LOL that's internet downplay tactic #101. There's a thread around here where someone listed all of them...oh about 3 years before you showed up on these forums.

I did pay attention, btw. If you're at least semi-honest with yourself, you'll admit that re-reading the thread, I was on point with the discussion. Fine with me if you don't, just dont sling sarcasm my way unduly. My point wasn't that obvious (since a reasonable reading of the points being made was in opposition to what I posited) though I did dumb it down in an attempt to get the drama over with.

I regularly play chess 9 moves ahead. *R00fles*
 

SerratedBiz

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Messages
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Good job in avoiding any of the discussion on the discussion and focusing on the 'kid' part. Also, good job not getting your panties in a bunch. :thumbsup:

Anyway, since you're not offering anything new and I'm not going to repeat my opinion it seems neither of us is going to add to the discussion.

I said good day.
 

DarkSign

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Nice job quoting Fes from That 70's show and not focusing on the substance of my post. Yes, I did bring it back to the discussion (read the part where I say my point was germane to the thread at large).

If you wanted to debate you'd offer reasons, based on my previous posts, that my points weren't germane. I'm guessing you cant, so you're deflecting.

Your good day is accepted. :P
 

SerratedBiz

Arcane
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Messages
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Nice job picking up on that line and writing out its origins down to the guy who came up with it.

I did write down my reasons. I posted two paragraphs earlier which you ignored. I won't post them again because then I'd be talking to myself.

Maybe we both need something better to do with our Saturday afternoon.
 

Rosh

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Oct 22, 2002
Messages
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DarkSign said:
Kid? LOL that's internet downplay tactic #101. There's a thread around here where someone listed all of them...oh about 3 years before you showed up on these forums.

Oooh, nice site redesign! I'm glad to see that your development team has branched out into a wide array of other genres - such ambition!

* Wireless Games
* Phone Games
* Play Games Online
* Murder Mystery Games
* Scavenger Hunt
* Interactive Games
* Rent Games
* Buy Game
* Game Boy Games
* Classic Games
* Nintendo Games

Expanding more and more all the time, I see. Keep up the good work!

Seriously, folks putting VoodooFusion on their resumes would be like someone using "Lead Designer of Duke Nukem Forever". Downplay that!
 

DarkSign

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Rosh, you must be bored to bring this up. Yeah, it's a complete and total failure as it stands.

So uhm, how is this not trolling to bring up something totally unrelated and inflammatory?

I knew when I invoked your quote, I'd summon the beast. Glad to see you again.
 

Rosh

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Messages
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DarkSign said:
Rosh, you must be bored to bring this up. Yeah, it's a complete and total failure as it stands.

Erm...I kind of knew that when you first advertised it as being just like Fallout, then had to ask about the character system.

So uhm, how is this not trolling to bring up something totally unrelated and inflammatory?

It is as threads tend to go after they start recycling the same thing over and over. I couldn't resist the return jab.

I knew when I invoked your quote, I'd summon the beast. Glad to see you again.

Glad to see you too. :)
 

DarkSign

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Ok, so will I bite the second time?

Now that I've admitted to (temporary) failure, you've already won the superiority game.

But ok fine. I'll bite.

1. I didnt say "just like Fallout", iirc. I said Fallout inspired. What I meant to say at the time was "post-apocalyptic with a similar style" My real failure in that first post was not knowing enough about NMA. I thought "wow! here's a groupd of people with similar interests who'll be supportive" Rose-colored glasses.

I didn't know that NMA was a hardened, bitter group of fans who had been lied to by the gaming establishment and who, due to a rightly-felt sense of betrayal, as well as a keen intellect, were more xenophobic than accepting.

So, yeah. That first post of mine was pretty naive. I had played FO1 and 2 each multiple times before that, so I knew of the mechanics, but the way I posted, if I'm remembering it right, could have made it sound pretty bad.

What I was expecting was a good-natured collaboration and help from people who loved something. What I got was vitriol. I came to your house, so your rules applied. I can't fault you for that.

2. Return jab

Yeah, I use that line with RL friends and it usually gets a chuckle. No worries about tagging me back for it. I've gotten a LOT of mileage out of it.

3. Parting thoughts

If I'd had had more disposible cash flow when I started the project it might have been up and running by now. I wont recite my entire pedigree, but I've run other businesses - enough to have the managerial experience for starting it. I simply didn't get the business plan put together well enough to get it shopped around. I had the right product with industry veterans willing to make it happen once it got financed, it just never got to that stage.

Completely my fault. I'll restart the project at a later stage of life. It's still what I want to do long term.

Enjoy :)
 

Rosh

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DarkSign said:
If I'd had had more disposible cash flow when I started the project it might have been up and running by now. I wont recite my entire pedigree, but I've run other businesses - enough to have the managerial experience for starting it. I simply didn't get the business plan put together well enough to get it shopped around. I had the right product with industry veterans willing to make it happen once it got financed, it just never got to that stage.

Completely my fault. I'll restart the project at a later stage of life. It's still what I want to do long term.

Enjoy :)

Some honest advice here, then, since you've been forthright. In the industry now, you'll either need to clone something tried and true to get publisher attention (the simpler the concept, the easier it is to sell it to the stupid suits who only see dollar signs with envy of others' success), or you need a working proof of concept, long before a publisher or financier will take real interest or show any money.

That's the way it goes, in particular with a design that would involve a large start-up cost. For studio income, as well as getting the team integrated and used to working with each other (as well as cement the development process your studio intends to use), start on a project of lesser scale. Something along the lines of a single-player game that would also allow you to set up a foundation for an in-house engine or an engine you've tailored to your needs. Starting an MMO as a studio without any completed titles or any backing is quite difficult, as I'm sure you know by now.

No hard feelings really meant, and I've certainly enjoyed the occasional chuckle. While I thought some of the concepts to be a bit derivative, there was promise shown in there somewhere, as vehicular combat in the wastes would be a more appealing gameplay concept than a lot of the static grindfests that currently represent the MMORPG market.

It is what I do; to agitate to have people prove me wrong by their efforts, in particular the supposed "AAA studios" that seem to do little but waste money while not offering much else but the same repackaged shit from the year before.
 

DarkSign

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None taken. Even when it's aimed at me, everyone deserves a kick in the nuts once in awhile. I'd count you among the provocateurs who serve a valid purpose. I swear i'm not just saying this, I'd always planned on seeing if you'd take a paying job once we got funded at a rate that would be worth your while since I respected your opinion.

And you're right on the subject of repackaging. That's all anyone wants to pay for. The problem is that MMOs take money to develop, but you need to get it from people who want to see a working product.

I thought that I could use mod culture to produce the prototype, but I was mistaken. Modelers are easy to find. That was one of my contributions to the project in fact. Programmers, animators, and texture artists are few and far between. They're either teenagers with no focus or they're decent to good and know they can leave at any time. Mods are over quickly and can translate to a demo reel. MMOs are major investments of overlapping work. As I'm sure you know, most programmers have an aversion to working with someone else's code - which is what indie-mmo programmers would have to do if they sign on to an existing project.

Even after:

* coming to a 80% complete design state
* assessing the most economical way to accomplish the work
* finding and contributing talent
* the product having some safe, some cutting-edge, and some bleeding-edge original ideas
* creating a centralized, non-wasteful production system
* setting goals that were clear, realistic (for volunteers) and meaningful
* using both carrots and sticks for motivation
* replenishing team members lost to life and disinterest AND
* making realistic assessments of accomplishments and deficiencies

MMO + volunteer project + limited funds just didnt work.

We ended up getting a whore's cunt hair away in one case (negotiating for months with Francois Maschiopinto of Atari, at his offices before they went under) and having other minor successes (getting feedback from industry (single-player and MMO) vets who liked the project more than casually) ... I couldnt keep all the plates in the air.

At one point I'd shelled out a lot of cash to have a programming group try just to make the Torque MMO toolkit work...and either I chose badly (probably) or the toolkit wasn't really ready (Minions of Mirth is thriving so it should work...although I'm thinking the programmer left out a little bit so that it never really worked for the rest of it). That was money I could have spent on buying the services of a business plan drafter (I'm business-minded but MMO industry stats as needed in those things are more heavily guarded than fort fricking knox. MMO Chart just doesnt cut it :) )

So, I'm saving money and am waiting to have a large warchest to do this right the next time.
 

Lonewolf

Novice
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May 17, 2009
Messages
71
Blizzard may have just lost half its subscription base anyway with China investigating the WoW licensing in China

That means oooo 5-6million less subscribers which means 5-5.5million subscribers left

I reckon if alot of MMO's opened up in the eastern markets their subscriptions would be alot higher, for example Warhammer is about to open in the east and then you will seem them boasting about 1million+ subscribers

The reason no MMO has hit WoW's subscribers is because most open in two markets only, Europe and USA, and the Eastern market e.g China, Japan etc has more people than those two areas put together...don't quote me on that though

I mean look at Lineage 2, 2million+ subscribers opened in west and eastern markets

Aion is doing the same and already has a strong 3million+ subscriber base in the east it can only achieve higher subscriptions by opening in a larger market

WoW is and always will be one of the, if not THE most successful MMO but the current subscriptions need to be put into perspective
 
Joined
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Here`s my advice:
Make a MMORPG with anime artstyle, you are going to appeal to west and east. Just look at how many people use anime avatars on english gaming forums.
 

Barrow_Bug

Cipher
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Mar 11, 2008
Messages
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Location
Australia
But Lance Henriksen is doing Narration on the website this very MINUTE!

LANCE HENRIKSEN MOTHERFUCKERSS!!
 

Lonewolf

Novice
Joined
May 17, 2009
Messages
71
Holy FuckBola!
 

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