Game News Bioware: Playing a DnD wizard is too complicated

[Volourn]

Yup. Keep twisting words. He was very clear. He specificially stated 'wide slection of spells'. It's not that complicated. If you are gonna take everything else he says at face value; you should do the same with that phrase.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Ok, fine, explain then how this "wide range" would go with Darcy criticized.

 

[Volourn]

"Ok, fine, explain then how this "wide range" would go with Darcy criticized."

I see absolutely no need to. 'Wide selection spells' should be a very simple phrase to comprehend yet you are finding it difficult to do so. Not that I find it surprising.

'Wide selection of spells' means exactly that - wide selection of spells.

Period.

 

[Vault Dweller]

"Wide selection of spells" means only that there are many spells to choose from. Nothing else. Similarly many games, like Morrowind, feature a wide selection of weapons yet there is no good reason to pick a sword instead of an axe, other than for cosmetic reasons.

 

[Volourn]

"Wide selection of spells" means only that there are many spells to choose from. Nothing else. Similarly many games, like MORROWIND, feature a wide selection of weapons yet there is no good reason to pick a sword instead of an axe, other than for cosmetic reasons."

It's oen thing to dislike BIO; it's another thing to compare them to the piece of trash known as Bethesda. This discussion is over until you take that slight back. That is all.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Fine. I take it back. Just 'cause it's you. The spirit of Christmas and all that crap.:wink: My point still stands though. I'm not sure which company I'm allowed to mention in the same sentence with Bio, so pick one, and comment on my point if you care.

 

[Volourn]

"Fine. I take it back. Just 'cause it's you. The spirit of Christmas and all that crap. My point still stands though. I'm not sure which company I'm allowed to mention in the same sentence with Bio, so pick one, and comment on my point if you care."

LOL Any company *but* Bethesda. They disgust me as they should all TRUE rpgers. :twisted:


"Wide selection of spells"

This, to me, is the sticking point. It's quite clear in its menaing. Not complex; just the way BIo likes it. :wink:

Perhaps, you are one of those non hardcore gamers who need things even more simplifed.

Just because other companies don't know what 'wide selection of spells' means doens't mean that BIO doens't either.

Until we see their actual spell list; I'm gonna give them the benfit of the doubt that when they say 'wide slection of spells' means 'wide selection of spells'.

 

[DrattedTin]

This night at the RPGCodex, it's another episode of Monkeys Flinging Shit, with the grizzled veterans Vault "I have this strange sense of Deja Vu..." Dweller and Vol "Consistency? R00flez!" ourn facing off against each other.

As of this point, there's no clear winner and my brains are slowly melting out my ears. John, back to you.

 

[dagamer667]

The reason wizards are a pain in the ass to play is because they are not front line characters like the fighters. NWN is heavily biased towards melee classes - much like the way Arcanum was incredibly easy for mage characters (at least without the level cap remover) with powerful spells and all 95% resistances being ridiculously easy to get. Wizards are definitely a support class and not a backbone unit like the melee classes. But yes, playing and leveling a fighter requires far less experience and skill compared to a caster.

The main problem with wizards is the need for resting. In a PnP session, even a few small fights will eat up the whole night. At least that's what I heard. In computer games, few fights last over a couple of minutes. If a wizard blasts out all his spells halfway into the dungeon, the whole party either needs to rest or risk continuing with a useless characters and no artillery. It's all the more annoying when all other characters are healthy and ready to go.

Selecting spells is another matter. Clerics at least have the advantage of spontaneous casting. Wizards have to balance not only the selection but the quantity as well. It doesn't help to have a boatload of different spells to choose from. As some review pointed out, if you don't know that any wizard should learn fireball at the first chance, you're in for a long haul.

In my experience, mana systems work pretty well if done properly. In my opinion, wizards could made into a much more fun class by adding a recharge timer for spells to eliminate the need for constant resting between fights (maybe except for top level spells). That way, you can either load up all different spells and be able to usem just once per fight or have several copies of the same spell to use it more than once.

 

[Vault Dweller]

LOL Any company *but* Bethesda. They disgust me as they should all TRUE rpgers. :twisted:

Well, it's not like "TRUE rpgers" are crazy about Bio's adventure games....

This, to me, is the sticking point. It's quite clear in its menaing. Not complex; just the way BIo likes it. :wink:

Yeah, it is quite clear. One of those bullshit expressions that can mean anything these days like epic, revolutionary, or innovative.

Just because other companies don't know what 'wide selection of spells' means doens't mean that BIO doens't either.

It certainly looks like Bio doesn't have a clue about the DnD magic system, so I wouldn't be surprised at anything at this point.

Until we see their actual spell list; I'm gonna give them the benfit of the doubt that when they say 'wide slection of spells' means 'wide selection of spells'.

Yes, let's disregard the list of specific things that likely won't be in the DA magic system and cling to the generic "of course, it will be awesome" reply. What else do you like to believe in, Volly? Santa?

This night at the RPGCodex, it's another episode of Monkeys Flinging Shit, with the grizzled veterans Vault "I have this strange sense of Deja Vu..." Dweller and Vol "Consistency? R00flez!" ourn facing off against each other.

Well, it's the only game in town :wink:

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Well, it's the only game in town :wink:

Well you also have Flip-Flopper General, but it's not very popular.... or good.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Exit, can't you maintain a normal conversation without resorting to name calling and turning every thread where I post opinions you disagree with you into flame wars?

Quite nice of you to reciprocate my message in kind with your own flaming remarks. I don't see how you can take the 'high road' here if all you can do is stoop to insulting me in a manner worse than I did.

Just for the record, your stupidity is becoming legendary. Your ways of arguing and seeking attention are disturbing. You have a reputation of a moron, a hypocrite, and a flip-flopper. Your threads are the reason we have a "stupid" forum. Just think about it.

You can't dismiss my arguments just because you've decided to label me as a 'flip-flopper, a moron, and a hypocrite'. That's pretty much the only thing you seem to do when you debate with someone. You attack them ad hominem instead of actually addressing their arguments and then claim to be in 'the right'. With beanses, jiu and all the people with 'low post counts' your only response to them seems to be along the lines of "Why should I listen to you? Your opinion is meaningless. You need a higher postcount." or "You are a newbie therefore your opinions are invalid to me."

You don't even know how to hold a debate without resorting to attacking a person's character. I feel must apologize for my earlier lash-out against you, as it was not very conducive to the discussion.

What about Diablo 2 where if you invest into wrong skills your character is useless?

Diablo 2 was a rather flawed system prior to the 1.10 patch and I would have never stated otherwise. It still is, to a small degree, but it’s a lot better now. Were you to refer to this as ‘flip-flopping’, it would give me doubts about your mental state.

What a crappy game it is.

Your opinion does not equal fact, and likewise neither does mine. I have to say that I rather enjoy Diablo 2 since they implemented the Synergies and made skill investments a lot more worthwhile. I understand perfectly that you imply not to like Diablo 2, but that doesn't make it a poor game.

Now, unlike many games and systems, all you have to do is rememorize spells and you are no longer useless.

Unlike many other games and systems, a mage has to spend a lot of his time memorizing his spells and taking a nap instead of being able to choose them on-the-fly. It's an unnecessary complication and a hassle to perform. That is why I do not like it.

For the record, complication has got nothing to do with how intelligent someone needs to be in order to understand it.

From Dictionary.com

com•pli•ca•tion
n.

1. The act of complicating.
2. A confused or intricate relationship of parts.
3. A factor, condition, or element that complicates.

and

com•pli•cate
tr. & intr.v. com•pli•cat•ed, com•pli•cat•ing, com•pli•cates

1. To make or become complex or perplexing.
2. To twist or become twisted together.

As you will note, it's got nothing to do with intelligence. It's all a matter of expediency and simplicity of ease in gameplay and the fact that unnecessary complications like the memorization system of which I will discuss later.

As for getting the wrong spells, that's what brains that you are obviously lacking are for.

That is untrue. It is either that the characters you play possess psychic aptitude or the DM tells you what is ahead, for you to really plan ahead with spells you intend to use. Who's to know that you will encounter a Wizard the next day that will be immune to all of your attacks unless you use Penetration or Remove Magic on him? If you had memorized a bunch of offensive Area of Effect spells in anticipation of a horde of goblins you'd likely end up being rather useless in the situation.

Fucking moron

Nobody is a moron for finding the D&D memorization system a complication to gameplay. In case you don't know what 'complicated' means, I suggest looking at the above quotes from Dictionary.com. It is a cumbersome system that has little to no merit in a CRPG.

Ah, so you are a noob. Why didn't you say that you have no fucking clue about the magic system because you are too stupid to understand it?

It's got nothing to do with being too stupid to understand. It's more a case of not caring enough about D&D to give a rats ass about it. I understand that it's easy for D&D ‘enthusiasts’ like you and Spazmo to have an implicit understanding about the system but the majority of gamers don’t want to be given the burden having to deal with something so unnecessarily implemented.

A game system should always attempt to be as intuitive as possible to the gamer, and the portions of systems like D&D's memorization in regards to CRPGs are not especially fun, or intuitive to get into. It doesn't take 'intelligence'. It's a matter of it being unnecessarily complicated when there are better systems. It doesn't need to be that way, as I will point out soon enough.

Someone would have wrote some easy guide for retarded for you. Anyway, first, Melf's Acid Arrow is useful to those who are vulnerable to acid (duh!), like trolls. Second, Magic Missile if implemented correctly (multiple targets) can allow you to disrupt several mages at once very quickly.

To a newbie, it looks like there are a limitless number of spells that do more or less the same thing with perhaps a variant in damage or elemental attack. Clerics have to deal with quite a number of healing spells that do practically the same thing.

I wouldn't play a Wizard, not because it's too 'hard' as VD seems to think

Didn't you just say that "I agree that it is too complicated to enjoy"? Wow, it takes less and less time for you to flip-flop. [/quote]
Because you fail to understand my meaning, it does not make me a flip-flopper, at least not in this particular situation. By god, have you no other argument other than to resort to personal attacks? You'll look for every opportunity to launch an ad hominem attack against anyone as long as it diverts attention away from your hollow argument.

It is too complicated to enjoy, as I said, because it isn't intuitive. Not because it's 'hard to grasp'. It's a cumbersome system that has no place in a CRPG. Never has, never will. It's got nothing to do with intelligence. It's all a matter of useful application, and thus far it is proven itself anything but; much like the brain in your head.

I see. Because wizards can only cast spells, and can't use darts, slings, crossbows, etc and anything else that would go nicely with good Dex.

When I play a Wizard I expect to be casting spells, not throwing darts at people. I don't care for the idiotic Dex angle that D&D implements for the sake of making up for the wizard's shortcomings. I'd much rather play games where wizards do as I expect them to: cast spells, not throw darts.

Yeah, so does Diablo 2. Your point is?

My point is that it invalidates the "Tyranny of Choice" argument.

Ever heard about a little thing called copyright?

Spellbooks and memorization/preparation are copyrighted? You're lying. I'd like some proof of this here statement.

More unsupported bullshit.

This is also an untrue statement. Where were your arguments against Bloodlines' use of mana/blood points? Or of Prince of Qin’s Chi? The implementation of mana as Energy in Deus Ex? Pretty much every game with magic in it has some implementation of mana but this has been the only time I’ve seen anyone lash out against it.

God, you are dumb! It's not the memorization, it's the mechanics that force you think and pick some spells, making strategies that go with them and trying to balance your offensive and defensive capabilities.

The mechanics are cumbersome and unnecessary. It is a forced choice that a player shouldn't have to go through the trouble of dealing with, especially in a game that is supposed to be fun, not tedious. Who's to say Bioware can't implement a belt of spells in a manner similar to the way Guild Wars does it? There's no reason a Wizard can't sort his spells and abilities out based on their usefulness to him.

Do you even know what "rules lawyer" refers to, noob?

Need I remind you that we aren’t in the Everquest or CounterStrike forums? Calling someone a “noob” has very little weight here given the ludicrousness of calling someone that. These are not those forums, where people whom you disagree with are either noobs, bluebies or carebears.

Oh, horror, oh, horror. You can't cast any spellls you want all day long. Well, that's what that planning is all about. If you don't want to have a rogue in your party, and you really want to unlock every door you see, than you think about how you may substitute these abilities.

I am afraid that you are failing to grasp the issue at hand. The point that I was attempting to convey was that it is a cumbersome experience, an unnecessary complication, and not something I want to have to deal with in a CRPG.

Planning ahead? Call it what you want, but it's tedious and unnecessary to gameplay. I don't know what you find so enjoyable about opening up the spellbook and rememorizing my spells with their reagents, and then taking a rest every time I come across some sort of barrier that I can't get through with my current selection of spells due to my lack of foresight or whatever.

You may double-/multi-class or you may reserve some of your spells just for that. That would limit your offensive abilities, but that's the choice WITH FUCKING CONSEQUENCES that you have to make.

These are unnecessary consequences that only stem from the implementation of a poorly conceived system. I would implore you to tell me why Dragon Age (or any other game) should be like Dungeons and Dragons, for that matter, especially when they can create a better, streamlined system there's absolutely no reason why they'd have to resort to using rules comparable to the Draconian and unnecessary rules implementation of D&D.

Double/Multi-class? This is meaningless to me, and on top of that it makes little sense. Why can't a wizard who learns how to fight with swords become good at it? I'd also like to add that class-based systems suck and limit effective role playing. Fallout certainly allowed you to master speech craft as well as guns, whereas a class-based game would force you to choose between them, as if having speech craft impairs your physical aptitude. Is this the Tyranny of Choices? Quite possibly.

Because my evaluation of things isn't based on my current likes/dislikes.

I certainly hope so, as it often appears that you have an agenda to run against Bioware. It's rather hypocritical considering that so many other CRPGs also use mana-based systems but you've never made noise about that.

Figuring that out, which, btw, isn't a rocket science, and how you'd deal with that is the strategic part.

I didn’t say it wasn’t strategic, but it is however unnecessarily complicated. It is one thing to come prepared with a strategy, like having a fireball ready to cast at a group of incoming Goblins, but forcing a player to sit down every day and having him select a whole new bunch of spells and rememorize them every single time he rests is pushing on the absurd. It's unnecessarily complicated and it lends little to fluid gameplay, especially for players intend on trying a mage their first time through. It was one of the reasons why I and many others opted to go with classes like the Fighter and the Ranger instead of Wizards in Neverwinter Nights and Baldur’s Gate.

NWN was a crappy game, imo. All the other mana-games that you've mentioned have absolutely no strategy in the spell casting department. That was the weakest point in Arcanum, imo.

Why does playing a Wizard require the application of spell memorization? It's rather burdensome to the player and there are many better ways to make up for it. I will point out several examples proving your incorrectness in this issue and the superiority of these systems:

In Guild Wars, you can only have 8 spells equipped at any one time even though you may have a large spellbook. 9 or 10 if you use charms. You have to pick the spells before you enter a mission and you will only be able to use these 8 spells throughout the mission. The spells you choose should compliment your gameplay style (or your party, if you've got a permanent one) and they should compliment each other. As you have spells from two classes to choose from at any given time, it might be a good idea to have a ranged Health Draining ability coupled with your regular bow attack. A warrior with offensive casting may opt to use a Touch-based damage ability to compliment his melee attacks.

In Kult, there is Attunement system which is an amalgamation of the spells (or rather, Attunements) that you choose and the application of equipment. Attunements are learned through affinity or rather use of equipment. Using a Long Sword will allow you to gain a Swordmastery attunement, for example, which adds to your repertoire of Attunements. These attunements are either passive, or active. Passive attunements work so long as you have equipped the necessary equipment in order to activate them, while passive attunements work like spells. Some attunements even require the activation of other attunements in order to work. For example, “Sunlight” requires that you have the “Fire Mastery” attunement active. Selecting which attunements to use happens each time you rest which is somewhat similar to Memorization. The difference being you don’t require reagents for them and you can simply select any of them as you so choose, limited to the attunement slots you have at your current Character Level. Active Spell attunements require mana that regenerates slowly or refilled through spirit vials dropped by every enemy. Casters are in no way given the short end of the stick when it comes to combat.

Given that there are an incredible amount of attunements that you can learn through the equipment you acquire, you can go through an entirely different set of attunements by playing an Archer instead of a Mage and on top of that, there are Elemental (Earth, Wind, Fire, Water) attunements to deal with that compliment your Magic, Archery or Melee skills.

In Seal of Evil, instead of stats like Strength and Dexterity, you are given a Five Element System based on the ancient Chinese elements of Water, Wood, Earth, Metal and Fire. Each of these elements works in a way similar to Strength and Dexterity, with Metal adding damage to your attacks and Earth adding armor and resistance. This Elemental system allows you to define your character according to the role you see fit to play on top of his or her character class (Paladin, Witch, Assassin, Beastman or Wizard) and these Elements compliment the very malleable spells available to you. For example, the Witch’s “Five Divine Elements” spell that works differently depending on the weapon you have equipped. Since each item is attributed its own element, a Fire element weapon would add more damage to the spell while a Wood element weapon would slow enemies down. On top of that, the Five Divine Elements spell also stacks with passive buffs like Fire Cantrip (adds movement and attack speed) or Wood Cantrip (adds damage and HP recovery).

In Diablo 2, you have Skill Synergies which compliment other skills you choose. Deciding which skill synergy set to define your character by is certainly a lot more ‘strategic’ than choosing which spells to memorize day by day, especially since the skill synergies affect your character in the long run. On top of that, there’s a variety of equipment that you will find throughout the game that allows you to define your character in a much more diverse manner on top of the skill synergies that you choose. A Paladin focused on dealing elemental damage might opt to go with the Vengeance/Conviction set of synergies while aspiring to equip a Baranar’s Star mace weapon to compliment his elemental attacks, whereas another Paladin might prefer to focus on dealing fast and hard melee damage on top of his elemental damage, but he would require mana stealing equipment in order to make up for his heavy use of the Vengeance skill.

And Deus Ex? You've gotta be kidding me.

I'm not. You only had a limited number of modifications to choose from and some of them would prohibit the use of others. Choosing the Stamina leg mod took away your choice to the Stealth mod. The modifications you picked and the skills you chose to upgrade (e.g. Rifles or Melee) determined your gameplay experience in the long run.

All in all, these systems work a lot more efficiently than D&D’s rudimentary ‘memorization’ system that was no doubt created a long time ago without much imagination or forethought.

We appreciate your expert opinion, Exitium.

Nothing I can say will change your willingness to hump the D&D system.

 

[Sol Invictus]

"Wide selection of spells" means only that there are many spells to choose from. Nothing else. Similarly many games, like Morrowind, feature a wide selection of weapons yet there is no good reason to pick a sword instead of an axe, other than for cosmetic reasons.

There is no reason why the same would hold true with Dragon Age. Though, the possibility still stands, due to KOTOR's implementation of spells, most of which were similar to each other in application. It is however impossible to tell what their 'wide selection' of spells might be. They might be as varied and useful as the skills in Guild Wars, or as simplistic and different only in name as Morrowind.

 

[PennyAnte]

Stuff on Jack Vance.

I didn't know who Vance was before. Knowing who created the memorize/forget spell system is an interesting nugget. This has actually been pretty interesting overall - it has prompted me to go look up a bunch of info on the author. I now have another writer I want to read, which is a plus. Good stuff.

That said, while you may disagree, it still seems pretty tough to argue against my statement that D&D's magical system is rooted in Western European myth (vs. WoD's more global approach). It also seems pretty obvious to me that Vance is, without question, also rooted entirely in Western European myth.

Granted, he brought several unique elements to the fantasy genre, including the magic-as-science concept. I think it might also be described as magic-as-equal-to-science (as a way to interact with the world), but he also has a whole body of work from which it's possible to tease out all kinds of nuances and nuggets of detail, so that kind of discussion could go on and on.

But still, he doesn't fuse cultural myths, or look for wisdom that crosses cultures like, say, Frank Herbert did. That's not to say a lot of Vance's observations about life don't transcend his culture, he often captures eternal truths. But he's clearly in the Western European tradition.

He's got homonculi, elementals, fairies, enchanted mirrors, witches, ogres, all that Western stuff. That's not to say he didn't add new elements of his own, but the fingerprints of Goethe (and others) are all over him there. Also, the Elder Isles are lifted intact from Arthurian legend.

I don't think Vance's unique creations would have been possible without the Western literary tradition (all those bubbling cauldrons and mumbled incantations I referred to before). He inherited Western ideas about magic the same way Rowling has in Harry Potter.

Anyway, we can disagree on that. But thanks, in any event, for pointing out a good author.

EDIT: It's probably pointless to include this in the midst of a Codex Classic Flame War, but what the hell.

 

[Volourn]

"It certainly looks like Bio doesn't have a clue about the DnD magic system, so I wouldn't be surprised at anything at this point."

Judging from their almost unparalled use of the D&D magic system in the IE games and NWN; I'd say they know a lot more about D&D magic system than either you and espiically that moron Rex do. Espicially considering only one other D&D game comes even close (and, in some ways, better). BIo wins. You lose.


"Yes, let's disregard the list of specific things that likely won't be in the DA magic system and cling to the generic "of course, it will be awesome" reply. What else do you like to believe in, Volly? Santa?"

That's right. Disregard my first post in the thread as well as the avrious posts directed at Rexer. I dislike what BIo is planning to do; but quite frankly when I read 'wide range of spells'; I percieve it to be 'wide rnage of spells'. It's hialrious how you can take evrything else the BIOweenie wrote as fact; but somehow twist the one positive thing he wrote in that post. Hahaha. What a Rexer move you pulled there.

 

[Deacdo]

"In Dragon Age the spell caster still has a wide range of choices for spells, but instead of managing a spell book, they'll be managing power. They can cast lower level spells more often, but still have to reserve some power for a big monster. "

Why didn't he just say it? It's a mana system.

That was a funny interview. IMO, wizards were the only reason the BG and IWD games were worth playing. They'd have been completely mindless otherwise.

That said, I've always wished a game would merge the Wizard/Sorcerer style magic system from DnD. So you could cast spells like a Sorcerer, prepare them ahead of time and acquire them like a Wizard.

Anyway, I see no problem with this. I think most of us know Bioware is as mass market as a company comes, and they're going simply things as much as possible.

 

[Volourn]

Why didn't he just say it? It's a mana system.BIo has alreayd "officiially" said it's a mana system they are gonna go with. Tsk, tsk.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Quite nice of you to reciprocate my message in kind with your own flaming remarks.

I think it's clear that my remarks were in response to your "you must be really fucking stupid..." comment, and it's a fact that I have never ever insulted you first, no matter how often I disagreed with your arguments.

I don't see how you can take the 'high road' here if all you can do is stoop to insulting me in a manner worse than I did.

Once started, things get out of hand quickly. The moral here is not to start things. I will keep this conversation civil as long as you do the same.

Just for the record, your stupidity is becoming legendary. Your ways of arguing and seeking attention are disturbing. You have a reputation of a moron, a hypocrite, and a flip-flopper. Your threads are the reason we have a "stupid" forum. Just think about it.

You can't dismiss my arguments just because you've decided to label me as a 'flip-flopper, a moron, and a hypocrite'.

I didn't dismiss anything, and I believe that I replied to your points. This was meant to be an introduction.

That's pretty much the only thing you seem to do when you debate with someone.

Is that a fact? I don't suppose you'd have a link handy? I've had many discussions with folks here, and you are the only one who complains, refusing to back up your claims with facts every time. Unlike you, I can back up that claim.

With beanses, jiu and all the people with 'low post counts' your only response to them seems to be along the lines of "Why should I listen to you? Your opinion is meaningless. You need a higher postcount." or "You are a newbie therefore your opinions are invalid to me."

Out of context. I have never ignored or dismissed new guys, but I believe that complaining about the ways I post news is a privilege of those who are actually here. For example, I'm not a member of DAC, it would be stupid, if I created an account and went there to tell the guys how to run the site, wouldn't it?

You don't even know how to hold a debate without resorting to attacking a person's character.

Can we have some links here please?

I feel must apologize for my earlier lash-out against you, as it was not very conducive to the discussion.

Apology accepted. I retract the offensive stuff I said as well.

Diablo 2 was a rather flawed system prior to the 1.10 patch and I would have never stated otherwise. It still is, to a small degree, but it’s a lot better now.

I disagree. Although the 1.10 patch improved things, it didn't do enough to fix that issue. Well, it's not really an issue, since you need to know what you are doing, but my point still stands: you can easily invest into wrong skills and make your character useless/less effective. Do you deny that?

What a crappy game it is.

Your opinion does not equal fact, and likewise neither does mine. I have to say that I rather enjoy Diablo 2

That was sarcasm. I like Diablo 2 a lot.

Unlike many other games and systems, a mage has to spend a lot of his time memorizing his spells and taking a nap instead of being able to choose them on-the-fly. It's an unnecessary complication and a hassle to perform. That is why I do not like it.

Taking a nap isn't really an issue. I don't believe it was a problem in any DnD CRPG game. There are plenty of opportunities for that. It's no more complicated than going back to town to sell/identify loot, restock on mana potions, etc. Since you don't have to actually take an 8 hour break while your character is sleeping, it's just a click of a button.

Who's to know that you will encounter a Wizard the next day that will be immune to all of your attacks unless you use Penetration or Remove Magic on him? If you had memorized a bunch of offensive Area of Effect spells in anticipation of a horde of goblins you'd likely end up being rather useless in the situation.

It's the part that calls for some strategy, you have to be versatile and be reasonably prepared to handle different things instead of specializing narrowly into a Fireball launcher. You may not like it, but some people obviously do.

It is a cumbersome system that has little to no merit in a CRPG.

Yet there are plenty of good DnD CRPGs from the original PoR to ToEE (reference to the magic mechanics)

A game system should always attempt to be as intuitive as possible to the gamer, and the portions of systems like D&D's memorization in regards to CRPGs are not especially fun, or intuitive to get into. It doesn't take 'intelligence'. It's a matter of it being unnecessarily complicated when there are better systems. It doesn't need to be that way, as I will point out soon enough.

Well, the memorization part is easy to get - you have to pick some spells and "load" 'em up. A simple concept. The sleeping part is not a big deal either. It's a click of a button, like I said. The only part that does require some thinking is choosing the spells. I don't really see what the problem is here.

To a newbie, it looks like there are a limitless number of spells that do more or less the same thing with perhaps a variant in damage or elemental attack. Clerics have to deal with quite a number of healing spells that do practically the same thing.

That what the manual is for, isn't it? You start with a handful of lvl 1 spells, pick the ones you like, try them out, see how they work, etc. If you are unhappy with the results (i.e. picked Chill Touch, but failed to make a successful attack because your THAC0 sucks), you try something else. Not a big deal. You learn as you go.

It is too complicated to enjoy, as I said, because it isn't intuitive. Not because it's 'hard to grasp'. It's a cumbersome system that has no place in a CRPG. Never has, never will. It's got nothing to do with intelligence. It's all a matter of useful application, and thus far it is proven itself anything but; much like the brain in your head.

You have said for the 3rd or 4th time that it's a too complicated in a bad way system. Can you explain in details what's so complicated and cumbersome about it. Also, I'm curious, what the assumption that it has no place in a CRPG is based on.

Yeah, so does Diablo 2. Your point is?

My point is that it invalidates the "Tyranny of Choice" argument.

The spells (not abilities, just spells) are the basically the same in D2. There is no real choice involved. The only thing you choose is your build.

Spellbooks and memorization/preparation are copyrighted? You're lying. I'd like some proof of this here statement.

I believe that memorizing spells is copyrighted (Product Identity) just like the entire D20 system is, but I don't have a link.

This is also an untrue statement. Where were your arguments against Bloodlines' use of mana/blood points? Or of Prince of Qin’s Chi? The implementation of mana as Energy in Deus Ex? Pretty much every game with magic in it has some implementation of mana but this has been the only time I’ve seen anyone lash out against it.

I didn't lash against mana-based system. I "lashed" against an attempts to present the DnD magic system as too complex.

Do you even know what "rules lawyer" refers to, noob?

Need I remind you that we aren’t in the Everquest or CounterStrike forums? Calling someone a “noob” has very little weight here given the ludicrousness of calling someone that. These are not those forums, where people whom you disagree with are either noobs, bluebies or carebears.

Noobs are people who talk about things they don't understand, using words they don't understand.

I am afraid that you are failing to grasp the issue at hand. The point that I was attempting to convey was that it is a cumbersome experience, an unnecessary complication, and not something I want to have to deal with in a CRPG.

Yeah, yeah, I got it. I can even repeat it now, watch: " a cumbersome experience, an unnecessary complication" Would you please finally tell us what's so cumbersome and complicated there?

I would implore you to tell me why Dragon Age (or any other game) should be like Dungeons and Dragons, for that matter, especially when they can create a better, streamlined system there's absolutely no reason why they'd have to resort to using rules comparable to the Draconian and unnecessary rules implementation of D&D.

It shouldn't.

I'd also like to add that class-based systems suck and limit effective role playing.

Depends on the implementation. The Avernum games and Silent Storm got it right.

Fallout certainly allowed you to master speech craft as well as guns, whereas a class-based game would force you to choose between them, as if having speech craft impairs your physical aptitude. Is this the Tyranny of Choices? Quite possibly.

Hey, we finally agree on something

Because my evaluation of things isn't based on my current likes/dislikes.

I certainly hope so, as it often appears that you have an agenda to run against Bioware. It's rather hypocritical considering that so many other CRPGs also use mana-based systems but you've never made noise about that.

I don't have an agenda, and I'm interested in DA. I expect it to have many features that I dislike and criticized in the past, but what game is perfect? I don't have any problems with mana-based system. I don't think that the DnD magic system is complicated, and that's why I was surprised that Darcy referred to it as such and implied that the new system will be moron-friendly.

... forcing a player to sit down every day and having him select a whole new bunch of spells and rememorize them every single time he rests is pushing on the absurd.

What's so difficult about that? How's that different from forcing a player to identify stuff, to see healers, to trade equipment, to restock supplies, etc? It take a few clicks, is it really that complicated?

I will point out several examples proving your incorrectness in this issue and the superiority of these systems

There are other ways, some of them are good, some not. I've never said that the DnD magic system is the only way to make it work. If you noticed, I didn't attack the mana-based system but the points that Darcy made.

In Diablo 2, you have Skill Synergies which compliment other skills you choose. Deciding which skill synergy set to define your character by is certainly a lot more ‘strategic’ than choosing which spells to memorize day by day, especially since the skill synergies affect your character in the long run.

The strategy there is to choose a build, the rest (synergies, spell use) comes automatically.

And Deus Ex? You've gotta be kidding me.

I'm not. You only had a limited number of modifications to choose from and some of them would prohibit the use of others.

That's a poor example. That choice is permanent, and you make it when you have really no idea what to expect. In DnD your choice of spells affects a day, not an entire game. You learn how to use spells, you learn new spells, you may constantly change your strategies. It would be way more difficult and, what's the word... cumbersome, to make a permanent choice and stick with it 'till the rest of your game. That's why even playing as a sorceror requires a good understanding of spells and some serious planning.

We appreciate your expert opinion, Exitium.

Nothing I can say will change your willingness to hump the D&D system.

I actually dislike it, but for totally different reasons.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Judging from their almost unparalled use of the D&D magic system in the IE games and NWN; I'd say they know a lot more about D&D magic system than either you and espiically that moron Rex do.

Then what's with all that stuff Darcy wrote?

That's right. Disregard my first post in the thread as well as the avrious posts directed at Rexer. I dislike what BIo is planning to do

That part is clear, and it's not what we were discussing

...but quite frankly when I read 'wide range of spells'; I percieve it to be 'wide rnage of spells'.

I thought that your original reaction was "I just hope - at least - this is true". When did it develop into blind faith? In your own words, "What a Rexer move you pulled there!"

It's hialrious how you can take evrything else the BIOweenie wrote as fact; but somehow twist the one positive thing he wrote in that post.

It's hilarious that you failed to connect the criticism directed at the DnD magic sysem to the new DA system.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

You don't even know how to hold a debate without resorting to attacking a person's character.

Hipocrisy is all the new rage nowadays, it seems.

 

[Sol Invictus]

You don't even know how to hold a debate without resorting to attacking a person's character.

Hipocrisy is all the new rage nowadays, it seems.

Unless you have something meaningful to contribute to this discussion, you should refrain from making inflammatory posts.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Unless you have something meaningful to contribute to this discussion, you should refrain from making inflammatory posts.

I call them as I see them. If it pleases you, feel free to moderate my post. If not, then take your own advice.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I have no intentions of moderating your post. I'm just saying that you shouldn't post a flame when VD and I have already settled our differences.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Nice try, but the "flame" (curious term for a simple hint of an attitude) would not rekindle whatever differences both of you had as its not addressing said differences.

 

[Sol Invictus]

You're just trying to get fresh with me.