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Blizzard stealth nerfs

DarkSign

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Ok. So I finally buy WoW to play with my guild.

What do I read when I start doing research on the Priest I wanted to build?

That they have stealth nerfed one of their best powers...Mind Control.

When will MMO developers stop this stealth nerf bullshit?
 

Sol Invictus

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They also stealth nerfed the Priest's Mind Soothe. Good luck getting past those monsters in instances now. On top of that, they stealth nerfed the Rogue's Feint. Same ability, different name.

On top of that, Taunt stopped working. Again.

I was thinking of ordering World of Warcraft the other day was was just a few clicks away, because I finally caved in to my nostalgic experience of WOW (yes, how very flip floppy of me) but after reading about all the issues on the WOW forums, Penny Arcade forums and Evil Avatar forums I promptly cancelled the order. So placed an order for Guild Wars instead and have been feeling quite good about it ever since.

On top of being able to define my character however I see fit (as opposed to WOW's cookie cutter min/max party builds) I don't even have to pay 15 a month for Guild Wars.
 

MarFish

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Dec 7, 2004
Messages
266
Exitium said:
They also stealth nerfed the Priest's Mind Soothe. Good luck getting past those monsters in instances now. On top of that, they stealth nerfed the Rogue's Feint. Same ability, different name.

On top of that, Taunt stopped working. Again.

I was thinking of ordering World of Warcraft the other day was was just a few clicks away, because I finally caved in to my nostalgic experience of WOW (yes, how very flip floppy of me) but after reading about all the issues on the WOW forums, Penny Arcade forums and Evil Avatar forums I promptly cancelled the order. So placed an order for Guild Wars instead and have been feeling quite good about it ever since.

On top of being able to define my character however I see fit (as opposed to WOW's cookie cutter min/max party builds) I don't even have to pay 15 a month for Guild Wars.

Doesn't stealth imply that they did this hidden and keep not talking about it? When I logged into the game, there was a huge yellow message telling me about this.

As for GW, I already said that it's a game with only a multiplayer mode cleverly marketed as "MMORPG without fee" when "Diablo with changes and no singleplayer" seems to be the better description.
 

Sol Invictus

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Most people don't notice it and it isn't anywhere on the Changes list on the website or forum. There are other stealth changes, which are made during patches, but they don't mention them anywhere.

One example was the switch from the old stats system to the new stats system just a month before the game's release. It was not mentioned anywhere.

What's so great about MMORPGs anyway? All you do is grind + chest camp.
 

Sovy Kurosei

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Dec 29, 2004
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They are having problems with Menethil harbour and the boats now, so they replaced the boats with NPCs that will teleport you between Auberdine-Menethil Harbour. Just like Closed Beta, huh Rex?

I'd wait until Blizzard gets their shit together, or when they release their first expansion. They are also blabbing on how great Battlegrounds will be, but it looks more like zerging tactics will be employed to try and raze the opponents base down first. Although, any guild that has some semblence of unit discipline would dominate the Battlegrounds.
 

kris

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MarFish said:
As for GW, I already said that it's a game with only a multiplayer mode cleverly marketed as "MMORPG without fee" when "Diablo with changes and no singleplayer" seems to be the better description.

the difference between a MMORPG and Diablo is sublime.
 

DarkSign

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MarFish said:
Exitium said:
They also stealth nerfed the Priest's Mind Soothe. Good luck getting past those monsters in instances now. On top of that, they stealth nerfed the Rogue's Feint. Same ability, different name.

On top of that, Taunt stopped working. Again.

I was thinking of ordering World of Warcraft the other day was was just a few clicks away, because I finally caved in to my nostalgic experience of WOW (yes, how very flip floppy of me) but after reading about all the issues on the WOW forums, Penny Arcade forums and Evil Avatar forums I promptly cancelled the order. So placed an order for Guild Wars instead and have been feeling quite good about it ever since.

On top of being able to define my character however I see fit (as opposed to WOW's cookie cutter min/max party builds) I don't even have to pay 15 a month for Guild Wars.

Doesn't stealth imply that they did this hidden and keep not talking about it? When I logged into the game, there was a huge yellow message telling me about this.

As for GW, I already said that it's a game with only a multiplayer mode cleverly marketed as "MMORPG without fee" when "Diablo with changes and no singleplayer" seems to be the better description.


You're only partially correct, but not exactly. While I fully admit an MMO cant have every little tip and tweak decided by the public at large, what is SUPPOSED to happen is that major changes come from the community after things are tested and seen to be needed. Then they are discussed with Dev to Customer interaction ala forums...or liasons with webpage vets that run a page for that particular class.

Stealth means...we just changed this from on high...screw you guys.

I definitely going to play GW as well, but since Ive paid the bucks for WoW Im going to still give it a shot.
 

Mendoza

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Joined
Sep 24, 2004
Messages
277
Well the European open beta should be starting sometime this week, so I can actually get to play what all the fuss is about. If I like it I'll buy it at retail and cancel my subscription when it gets boring. I'm not really convinced either way whether these 'nerfs' are actually improving balance or not - most people seem to be less than objective about their class.

Guild Wars on the other hand has very few complaints about balance, but playing it at the last beta weekend it just wasn't as fun as it had seemed before. Possibly because I was playing the same Ascalon missions again, possibly because the world doesn't seem as interesting/developed as Azeroth (though I'll be interested to see how all the changes in instances based on missions and quests you've done turns out). I'll almost certainly buy it, because of the no monthly fees, and because it is still fun, but I'm hoping there turns out to be way more content, both PvE and PvP that I haven't see yet.
 

Sol Invictus

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The nerfs don't improve class balance. They just make things harder, more difficult, and mosts importantly - worse. If anything they should be making all the classes on par with the strength and usefulness of a Paladin instead of stripping away every bit of utility that every other class has. It's bad enough that they increased the downtime by more than a hundred percent when they made it impossible to drink health/mana potions during combat, in addition to disabling regeneration during combat. Mages are totally screwed.

At the level cap, mages receive the short end of the stick because their spell damage is based purely on the level of the spell and not on their statistics. There's no way for them to increase their spell damage through the use of equipment. Rogues on the other hand can improve their weapon damage, speed and accuracy through dexterity/strength in addition to getting newer, better more powerful equipment that add to those statistics or come with damage modifiers. Mages don't get higher level 'create water' beyond level 40, either, so they can't regenerate mana at higher levels at any degree of efficiency. Priests have spirituality, which unfortunately doesn't work during combat. They have to rely on mages to create water for them to regenerate their mana, so that is a very strong dependency.

Unlike Paladins, none of the classes can solo at all at higher levels because it isn't efficient. Well, Shamans can create Mana Fonts to regenerate their mana, but they're Horde only characters. Paladins and Shamans are considered 'overpowered' by most of the WOW players due to some inherent and idiotic 'nerf mentality'. Instead of whining and bitching about how powerful these two classes are they should be more focused on trying to bring the rest of the classes up to par.
 

DrattedTin

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Jan 9, 2003
Messages
426
I was thinking of ordering World of Warcraft the other day was was just a few clicks away, because I finally caved in to my nostalgic experience of WOW (yes, how very flip floppy of me) but after reading about all the issues on the WOW forums, Penny Arcade forums and Evil Avatar forums I promptly cancelled the order. So placed an order for Guild Wars instead and have been feeling quite good about it ever since.

I'll give you a hint, Exitium: as soon as you start reading about a game on forums, you immediately stop enjoying it.

Oh, hey, the game is gorgeous and fun but... DAMN, CLASS BALANCE!

I'm not saying that there aren't issues that need to be addressed (oh, lord there are) but getting into the forum cycle will destroy your enthusiasm for ANY online game.

It's bad enough that they increased the downtime by more than a hundred percent when they made it impossible to drink health/mana potions during combat, in addition to disabling regeneration during combat. Mages are totally screwed.

Where are you getting this stuff? Maybe they changed this in the last week, but last time I played (a little over a week ago) it worked like this: no health regeneration during combat. That's it. You can chug potions all you like (there is a flat 2min cooldown on potions of the same type at ANY time), and mana regenerates as soon as 5 secs have passed since the last spell you cast. That's it.
 

xemous

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The Open beta's are great because most players dont get enough time to find out how shit the game is. Its a nice trick by Blizzard, since you level up so fast at the start, and get through so many quest the betas over. Once you buy the game after a week or so you realize just how shit it is.

I never had to go to the forums to find out the game is a joke, nor did I take any notice of Exitium's posts prior to the open beta. I played it for myself. But those fucks tricked me with there sleazy open beta of like 5 days.

Fkn criminals is what they are.

About 6-7 of my friends who purchased the game quit there account at the end of the free month. My mate from EB is still playing because his a junky.
 

Sol Invictus

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DrattedTin said:
I'll give you a hint, Exitium: as soon as you start reading about a game on forums, you immediately stop enjoying it.

Oh, hey, the game is gorgeous and fun but... DAMN, CLASS BALANCE!

I'm not saying that there aren't issues that need to be addressed (oh, lord there are) but getting into the forum cycle will destroy your enthusiasm for ANY online game.
Oh, I enjoyed the game well enough during the closed beta period and as I was ordering it, I was thinking about those nostalgic moments I had playing the game. However, as soon as I read the forums, it rekindled my experience with the Open Beta some months back which left a sour taste in my mouth and was the reason I didn't order the game on the very week of its release.

They ruined the class balance, especially with the Warrior and the casters. I'd have figured they would have fixed these things by now, from reading the changelist but I attributed to Blizzard the benefit of the doubt of having fixed the game upon its release. Sadly, it turns out that they only made it worse.

Where are you getting this stuff? Maybe they changed this in the last week, but last time I played (a little over a week ago) it worked like this: no health regeneration during combat. That's it. You can chug potions all you like (there is a flat 2min cooldown on potions of the same type at ANY time), and mana regenerates as soon as 5 secs have passed since the last spell you cast. That's it.
You might think that generous but the fact is that there was absolutely no such silly cooldown of potions during the closed beta, and trust me - Mages are screwed when it comes to higher levels. A single drink of water won't replenish their mana reserves, so they're going to have to either hunt for Elemental Water (which is time consuming and pointless) or sit down for more than two minutes in order to take a second chug. Having mana regenerate 5 seconds after the last spell you cast is burdensome, too. At the rate some of the monsters in instances respawn, you're going to find your party trapped in between a rock and a hard place due to the amount of time it takes to med. See: Stormwind Prison.

You might not notice this below level 30, or even 45, if you're less adventurous, but you'll realize how fucked up mages have it if you play a lot of the game, or try other classes.
 

DrattedTin

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Messages
426
You might think that generous but the fact is that there was absolutely no such silly cooldown of potions during the closed beta, and trust me - Mages are screwed when it comes to higher levels.

I understand where you're coming from on this, I think. Mages *are* definitely in need of a boost. However no cooldown on potions would be disastrous to a MMORPG's balance if you wanted to have people group. If there was no cooldown, there would be nothing to stop you stocking a ton of (actually very cheap to make) potions and just slaughtering your way willy-nilly through mobs without any regard to conserving your HP/MP. It would be Diablo. Diablo was not a bad game by any means. But WoW was never meant to be Diablo, I think.

At the rate some of the monsters in instances respawn, you're going to find your party trapped in between a rock and a hard place due to the amount of time it takes to med. See: Stormwind Prison.

The Stockades in Stormwind have an exceptionally high spawn rate for an instance, but if you're in a group you should generally have no trouble moving beyond the respawn point of whatever you killed by the time it would repop. In fact, provided you have no mishaps you could have finished the last boss mob by that time (it's worth noting that boss mobs never respawn in instances). If having to kill the mobs twice (once in, once on the way back) is an insurmountable barrier, sorry, but your group probably sucks.
 

Sol Invictus

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I really don't know what you're getting at. I really don't see why every single MMORPG has to be in the same mold as Everquest. Why should every single MMORPG be about grinding, or be as slow-paced as Everquest? Having no cooldowns on potions was hardly 'disasterous' as you seem to think prior to the end of Closed Beta.

In fact it worked very well from the beginning of Closed Alpha until the end of Closed Beta, until they implemented cooldowns. The only people who were happy about it were those idiotic Thief players who at the time were seriously nerfed, and seemed to think that having Mages do the most amount of damage in the game was 'imbalanced' inspite of the fact that Mages had so many disadvantages. They wanted every class to be as nerfed as they were and campaigned to have Mages reduced in power. Granted, nobody, not even the mages opposed a simple reduction in damage, but in addition to the reduction in damage, Blizzard made it so that these reduced power spells used even more mana than before, rendering them essentially worthless. I'll wager that nobody even uses Pyroblast in retail due to its weak damage and incredible mana usage.

World of Warcraft may have never been meant to be Diablo, but who said it was meant to be Everquest, either? It is my belief that VU insisted on the implementation of Everquest's formulaic design in order to release the game as quickly as they did in order to meet Christmas sales. Most of us CB testers assumed that the game would have still been in closed beta even now, because there was still so much to implement (PVP Battlegrounds, anyone?) and balance. In June, Blizzard even promised to have Player Housing implemented by its retail release date. You know that portal behind the locked gate in Stormwind City? That's supposed to lead to the player housing. Now, Blizzard's gone back on their word and announced that Player Housing may only become available upon the release of the game's first expansion pack. This is an atrocity, especially considering that Anarchy Online and Dark Age of Camelot both had player housing upon release or had it implemented for free at a later date. DAOC has Realm vs Realm battles which are far superior to Blizzard's proposed Battlegrounds PVP, which will likely amount to nothing more than a zerg rush. Even Lineage 2's Castle CVC (clan vs clan) and tax system is superior to that, though the implementation was incredibly buggy until the most recent free expansion.

Concerning WOW, it was probably meant to be closer to Diablo 2 (Talents tree, anyone?) than to Everquest when it was conceptualized a few years ago by Jeff Strain, who now works at ArenaNet on Guild Wars. He left when VU was flexing their corporate muscle on Blizzard to create the 'next Everquest game'. The evidence of this is plain to see. Half the game consists of good but completely unrealized concepts like the talent tree, warrior stances, mage and thief utility abilities (lockpicking, mage's open lock, mage invisibility, thief's feint, mage's blink, etc) fast paced combat and quick health/mana regeneration. Most of these artifacts of a 'different WOW' have since been removed from the game, and Warrior stances are all but worthless now. You'd be surprised at how useful mages were. Now, they're just ranged nukers/AOE casters. So much for the Wizards of Warcraft. Now they're just the Wizards of Everquest v2. Hell, the Priest's mind sooth doesn't really work anymore and I'm not even sure if Mind Control works on players anymore. So much for PVP priests. So much for World of Warcraft. They might as well call it World of Everquest.
 

Sol Invictus

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The problem with the lead (moron) designer, Tigole, is that he pays way too much attention to all the shit on his Fires of Heaven EQ 'uberguild' forum than he does to the actual customers of World of Warcraft. All he does is rant on his forum about what whiny bitches the WOW customers/unpaid beta testers are and how they're too stupid to witness the complexity of his ingenious designs every time he fucks with the character balance.

I remember how he fucked up the Taurens by having them use Plainsrunning at level 40 instead of getting a proper mount. People complained about that, because if you are in Plainsrunning, the moment that you get hit, you will lose your Plainsrunning and become vulnerable to attacks, whereas people on mounts could just keep on running. Later on he proposed that the Tauren run on all fours, like cows. The tauren community was pretty pissed about that. Ultimately, he or someone else must have given into the community's demands and given them Kodo Beasts to ride as mounts instead of plainsrunning. That too is a bit silly, considering how big Tauren were in Warcraft 3.

On top of all that, I've got good word from some inside guys at Blizzard that the Art Director Chris Metzen is nothing more than a plaguerist and a hack. Do you know why his art style changes every few minutes? It's because steals his work from the people who work under him and claims it as his own. It's funny, and quite obvious, when you compare the Night Elves of Warcraft 3 to those of WOW, or the Orcs, or the Tauren, or the way Jaina Proudmoore looks. Hell, who's idea was it to implement cute gnomes? They were certainly missing from all the previous incarnations of Warcraft.
 

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