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12 reasons why F2 is a bad Fallout game

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by mfkndggrfll, Aug 7, 2018.

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  1. mfkndggrfll Learned Shitposter Bethestard

    mfkndggrfll
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    1- Awful introduction and PC background. The introduction and starting area are cringeworthy to say the least. Your character is the grandson of Fallout 1's vault dweller, basically someone with a lot of knowledge on the outside world and technology. The village was even founded by the vault dweller and built with the help of his knowledge. Yet the whole place is filled with bone-in-nose shamans and ???????? people who live in a completely different world. Some even have special shaman powers, and the game features A LOT of dumb stuff like people believing in ghosts. Your village also built a fricken temple and for some reason doesnt even live in it. Basically F2 devs completely misunderstood what makes a proper post-apocalyptic setting.

    2- Terrible MQ with bad pacing & scaling. The MQ is the same as F1 which isnt a bad thing, aside from the execution. You are looking for a GECK to save your village but the game is designed so 99% of the NPCs will answer "Uhh idk" when asked where you might find it (Unlike F1 which had a proper pacing and scaling that slowly guided your search). This basically turns the game into a cryptic point & click game. The game quickly starts feeling more like a chore than a game, expecially considering the fedex nature of the quests. As you progress in the game you realize that of all towns/factions your village is the least and qualified and worthy of holding a GECK, literally every other settlement could make a better use of it. The main path is also padded with filler like a 1k caps requirement to free a key NPC from slavers in order to progress. The other options are to reroll a female character and have sex with the slaver boss or somehow manage to cheese the fight enough to kill 10 slavers armed with guns while you only have a spear... The 1k caps will have to be earned by grinding fedex quests. Overall the game feels like one of those early age MMORPGs where the game doesnt offer enough quests to naturally level up so you need to grind just to progress.

    3- Broken combat system. Aside from being broken the combat has some more serious flaws. The encounter design is the worst ever. Mark my words when I say that there isnt a single memorable combat encounter in the whole game, aside from the last boss which requires tremendous amounts of grinding to defeat. The non-premade fights are all dull and follow a similar design pattern. Its always 1 named NPC with a character model slightly different from the rest of his copy pasted guards. The amount of guards is just too damn high, you simply cannot enjoy killing a certain NPC the way you want, you have to cheese the fights to be able to take out the mob of guards. For those who played Fallout 3, imagine if Mr. Tenpenny was surrounded by 10 guards with miniguns, would you still be able to enjoy decapitating him and tossing his remains off the balcony?

    4- Unbalanced random encounters. The random encounters met when traveling the world map are arguably the worst aspect of the game. None of them are enjoyable or contributes anything to the game other than xp and loot. Combat somehow feels slower than F1 and is extremely tedious even on fastest speed. Note that it isnt rare to stumble upon virtually unwinnable fights that require a reload. Many times you will get 1 shot on the first round before you can even act. Even when you manage to escape its still very tedious since you often need 2+ turns to reach the exit and you face multiple enemies that all have enough APs for 2-3 actions. Typical encounter : a bunch of farmers (3-5+) getting attacked by a bunch of raiders (3-5+), so lets say 10 units acting 2-3 times and triggering 20-30 animations for 2 turns, thats an average of 40-60 NPC actions that you need to slog through just to reach the exit tile. And those encounters are very frequent. The game teaches you to save scum in order to travel.

    5- Terrible quest design. The quest design is where F2 crashes and burns. It simply is the worst of the series. The game is filled with uninteresting fedex quests offering no moral ambiguity. It is always a matter of 'yes or no' rather than 'right or wrong'. More often than not both the player and the character dont give 2 craps about the outcome of these quests because they are devoid of relevant consequences. If you read the wiki, and I am not joking, the large majority of quests begin with words like 'get', 'deliver', 'retrieve', 'collect', 'kill', etc... Very often the quest giver straight up tells you exactly where you need to go and what to do and leaves little to no room for the player's intelligence to be useful. The quests lack the interesting alternative solutions that F1 had, it very often boils down to doing exactly what you were told with no relevant consequences, or you get an out of place evil option.

    6- NPC dialogue is bare-bone and unfinished. People feel more like zombies than wastelanders trying to survive. The only memorables NPCs are remembered for the wrong reasons, that is because their dialogue was particularly cringeworthy and/or immersion breaking. The world is filled with generic NPCs and the named ones arent interesting because they only offer some typical fedex quests. There are plenty of areas where named NPCs offer nothing but services and offer copy pasted answers, like at one certain marketplace in a very large end game settlement is filled with NPCs that reply "I sell junk, not info" when asked for rumors or info. NPCs feel like tools more than anything. Even Skyrim had more and better dialogue, and we all know how bad it is.

    7- Lack of exploration value / bland world design. Over 99% of the art assets are recycled from F1 and are misused. The famous 'Blades' sign that served to mark the Blade's hideout is not cut n paste around every corner. If you enjoy exploring every nook and cranny in the games you play then F2 will be a utter disappointment. Towns are small and empty filled with generic NPCs. World design like building placement is dull and feels copy pasted. Houses are lined up on grids like a game of sim city. Towns offer no memorable architecture, lore or layouts. There are a few magazines

    8- Skill check system is flawed. The way it currently works if your character meets the requirement to unlock a certain dialogue option, the game will STILL roll a dice just to know if that option is VISIBLE to you. That means you can talk to certain NPCs who should be offering certain options but they dont, you need to exit and re-enter dialogue until it shows up. How's that for breaking the immersion? It also means you can accidently skip on content that will block you from progressing/finishing a quest. Your playstyle is also largely dictated by your initial build and tagged skills. You cannot become good at speech if you didnt tag it because most speech skill checks require you to tag speech.

    9- Karma system is broken. Just for grinding fedex quests and not selecting the obvious psychopath option each time your character slowly becomes a goody two shoe. The game forces you into some ridiculous C&C, you often have the option of just doing what you were told or pick an unjustified evil option. Like the quest that turns you into a messenger boy/ambassador between 2 towns. You get the option of playing the fedex role or turning the 2 towns against each other for no RP reason. There is no neutral ground (Ignoring the quest triggers the war). Worst part is that I only did those quests for the rewards because I needed caps to progress the MQ and never really cared about them, yet they defined my character as 'good'. As a result you get locked out of content given by evil NPCs in a game already very limited in content.

    10- Talking heads are dull , most of them use copy pasted assets like 4 out of the whopping 13 total heads are simply metal helmets. Fallout 1 had 21 talking heads and there simply isnt a single talking head in F2 that can compare to those in F1. These NPCs mostly speak with a bored and monotoneous voice.

    11- Companions are boring. They share the same dialogue lines which makes them lose all their personality and uniqueness. "Im going to beat you like a red headed step-child" was funny the first time I saw it, then other companions started spewing out the same line over and over... They mostly serve as packing mules and do not offer much interaction beyond that. Most of the companion who were supposed to get their own quests didnt because of cut content. Most of the companions are earned by simply spending caps to pay them off.

    12- Overwhelming amount of parodic and immersion breaking content. You simply cant avoid it, its all over the place. Where do I start? In random encounters you meet parodized homeless people walking toward you like zombies, just like a South Park episode (which came out after F2, but still). A dog causing bad luck stalking you with more HP than 10 super mutants (can possibly require a reroll if met at low levels because he is virtually unkillable). The only doctor of the one settlement of the waste that represents law and order, a doctor that heals the mayor, is parodized as a mad scientist/incompetent doctor. A guy in the same settlement is living too much stress, so he blows himself up like a terrorist and leave you with a huge pile of loot. People living the big life doing drugs and gambling all day and still being able to survive. A town that specializes in gold digging in a post-apocalyptic world. A town with a PORN STUDIO, do I need to say more? The jokes are the meat of this 'game' and the pieces of serious content are hidden like easter eggs.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2018
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  2. ItsChon Cipher Patron

    ItsChon
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    Fallout 2 got boring extremely quickly and I spent a lot of time trying to push past that boredom, wondering what the hell was wrong with me. That is of course until I realized that Fallout 2 and Fallout 1 are probably shit and the Codex is filled with a bunch of NMA shills that will fanboy/defend a game regardless of all the completely valid flaws people bring up.
     
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  3. Baardhaas Savant Patron

    Baardhaas
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    Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy
    Come on mfkngerbil, you just need to give it some time. I'm sure you'll learn to love F2. Just give it another try.
    Show Spoiler
    How many hours have you sunk in to a game you obviously hate, you raging retard?
     
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  4. Okagron Erudite

    Okagron
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    You already did this same thread in three or four different sites, one of them being in this same forum. Let it fucking go, no one gives a shit that you don't like Fallout 2.
     
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  5. Strange Fellow Magister Patron

    Strange Fellow
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    [​IMG]
     
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  6. Okagron Erudite

    Okagron
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    Just want to respond to this. Moral ambiguity is the inability to tell if something is right or wrong or both sides have validity in their points. You don't even know what moral ambiguity is, you fucking dipshit.
     
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  7. almondblight Arcane

    almondblight
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    Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 really shouldn't be lumped together.
     
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  8. vota DC Learned

    vota DC
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    It is a great Lotr game.
    Gimli a dwarf to build a dream on and my imagination will thrive Sauron that dwarf.
     
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  9. ItsChon Cipher Patron

    ItsChon
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    I found FO1 to be just as boring as FO2. Shady whatever the fuck is an utterly banal town, everything looks hideous, you get your companion Ian so suddenly and so randomly you have no reaosn to give a fuck, and even the combat is ass. At least with Arcanum, I saw glimmers of good dialog and interesting settings, I just couldn't slog through the horrid game that was holding it back. I saw nothing endearing about either the dialogue or the setting in FO1 or FO2.
     
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  10. mfkndggrfll Learned Shitposter Bethestard

    mfkndggrfll
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    Shady Sands is the first town encountered outside the vault and its the worst by far, it was meant to be uninteresting. Towns become more interesting as you progress and it escalates pretty quickly. Give F1 another shot.
     
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  11. Bester Arcane Patron Vatnik

    Bester
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    OP makes interesting points. I like FO2 better, but it's an interesting point of view.

    I like FO2 more because it has a sense of a large populated world, whereas FO1 looks like there's a couple of villages and no bigger picture. That's just subjective, I understand.

    Is this true? Can anyone confirm? I'm really surprised, I never noticed it.

    Like what? I always play good characters despite myself. What evil content is there? Just curious.
     
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  12. Clockwork Knight Arcane

    Clockwork Knight
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    ...ends. The ride never ends. The ride never...
     
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  13. mfkndggrfll Learned Shitposter Bethestard

    mfkndggrfll
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    Well I find it immersion breaking to have a harsh wasteland where humans multiply faster than rabbits and end up filling the streets wandering aimlessly, while the game doesnt provide enough credible explanation for their survival.


    I remember in V15 where raider leader and his buddies become hostile after talking to them while trying to negociate becaues my karma was too high (300ish), and I have simply avoided blatantly evil options
     
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  14. azimuth Educated

    azimuth
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    Although it's been a while, I'm pretty sure that has nothing to do with karma. It's a speech check. If you pass, you don't fight, but if you fail, you fight.

    http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Rescue_Chrissy

    http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Dalia

    (Cool follow-up with Dalia.)

    http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Phil_(Khans)

    I don't remember karma being terribly important in FO2. The big innovation of the game at the time was the reputation system, and the way it reflected specific regional or political relationships rather than a goofy D&D-like alignment. Fallout New Vegas is generally praised for reviving this system, whereas FO3's karma system was as simplistic as FO1's.

    Even if it were karma (i.e. "general reputation"), I think that would be more C&C and world reactivity than anything. The game allows a lot of leeway in terms of the types of moral choices you can take. My first game I was a slaver and helped Bishop take over New Reno (there are at least five different outcomes for this one town!), but I still ended up with good karma.

    Also, random encounters were always my favourite part of the game, so nix on that. I would sometimes spend huge chunks of time wandering between specific towns just to see what kind of mashups I could find. Loved AI v AI battles at the time, but that's probably not as exciting if you're a kid playing in 2018 (vs. 1998).
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2018
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  15. mfkndggrfll Learned Shitposter Bethestard

    mfkndggrfll
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    No Im talking about the leader in the bottom of the vault, and he clearly mentions you looking too much like a goody two shoe or something. It sucks when you try to make a deal between NCR and V15 to progress with the MQ but apparently I cant be a diplomat
     
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  16. logan Unwanted

    Unwanted
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    I hate fallout 2 random encounters ! they are hard and happens too often to a point that the game become literally a reload/save scum simulator specially if you play with a low agility character.not to mention that fallout 2 takes the RNG to a new level of shitness.

    To this day i still remember the chore that was trying to reach the navarro base then getting insta-killed by Enclave patrols encounters despite i having a power armor.

    thankfully i have find a solution to reduce the random encounters in fallout 2.
     
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  17. Bester Arcane Patron Vatnik

    Bester
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    It's an unrealistic, but fairly interesting portrayal. Like fantasy-post-apoc.
     
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  18. azimuth Educated

    azimuth
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    Pretty sure Darion attacks you no matter what. It's completely detached from the NCR / V15 stuff - Darion is a bump in the road and he has to be fought.

    http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Kill_Darion

    Playing a charisma character in FO2 (which famously did NOT have a pacifist path) is as much about bringing along companions, whose number is limited by charisma score, as it is about speech checks.
     
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  19. Lhynn Arcane

    Lhynn
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    Agree

    Sort of agree with the bad pacing, the scaling is fine.

    Thats fair.

    Thats retarded, nothing better than a game that doesnt hold anything back.

    This is all horribly wrong. Questing is great in fallout, they all present themselves in a believable way, have multiple outcomes and allow a wide range of characters to complete them in different ways.

    Thats wrong, actually most NPCs are memorable for their role in the world and your interactions with them. NPCs dont present an unlimited breadth of options to interact with, no game does that, but the sheer amount of options puts most games nowadays to shame.

    Theres plenty of exploration, its just city exploration. You will discover something new and interesting in every town, in almost every corner.
    The world design isnt bland, but it isnt good either, part of their Theme Park approach as some here would put it.

    Everything is flawed. The system is far from perfect, but its plenty serviceable.

    So you did good deeds, even if for the money, and are complaining because people were thankful? You are so horrifingly retarded your mother should have just pulled the chain and made you a city problem.


    Yeah well, your mom is fat. What the fuck kind of a point is this? How does this even compare to the other 11 points?

    Wouldnt know, i always play solo. Sulik seems plenty fun tho.

    Immershunfag? Anyway, this is true and one of the biggest flaws of the game.
     
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  20. mfkndggrfll Learned Shitposter Bethestard

    mfkndggrfll
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    ''Thats retarded, nothing better than a game that doesnt hold anything back.''

    Because you think virtually impossible encounters are fun? Getting 1 shot on first round by 1 of the 3-4 Super Mutants when you need 2-3 turns to escape is fun?

    ''This is all horribly wrong. Questing is great in fallout, they all present themselves in a believable way, have multiple outcomes and allow a wide range of characters to complete them in different ways.''

    They are mostly uninteresting and revolve around A- Errand boy and B- Psychopath. They lack moral ambiguity.
     
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  21. azimuth Educated

    azimuth
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    If you get outdoorsman skill, you are given a choice whether to accept an encounter or not. I don't see the problem, really -- either your character should be strong/fast enough to win or get out of encounters, smart enough to avoid them entirely, or they're killing your character because your character is weak. That sounds like the wasteland doing its job. Also I'm pretty sure this is all moot once you get a car.

    Totally disagree on the quests but I'm also not sure what you're looking for. New Reno has four factions to side with, and even then the outcome can be shaped further by whether you impregnate a Bishop girl and/or deal with Myron somehow. Redding has a handful of outcomes depending on which faction you back. None of these factions is really an obvious right choice.

    There's a big political struggle going on between the NCR and Vault City, and New Reno plays a key role. There are a number of ways to affect this struggle and it's far from clear-cut. I worked with Moore (a pro-democracy abolitionist) to get to Bishop (a mob boss), who has a vicious but realistic approach to politics. He wants you to kill Westin (a good man standing in the way of NCR expansion) "without making it look like a murder" and then kill the Vice President of the NCR. This isn't unrealistically psychopathic, as the end result is the abolition of slavery and political elitism in Vault City, and wider access to its advanced technology and power systems. This could mean a better, longer life for more people in the wasteland and even the curing of jet addiction.

    Here's the quest for killing the VP:

    Where's the fetch quest?

    How many people even saw this quest? I'd imagine most didn't even work with Moore/Bishop and killed all of his raiders instead.

    Anyway, the game is also not really about "quests" or "quest lines". It's about interacting with the world and organically choosing your own path through the plot, then seeing the consequences of those choices.

    (PS: Hilarious way to kill the VP I didn't know about. 'However, if you do not want a fight, you can use his son as a suicide bomber. Talk to the boy for the first time, then set the timer on some explosives and plant them on him, talk to him again and ask him to "tell your father I'm here?" and watch the boy run inside. Wait for the explosion and receive your experience, including possible title of a Childkiller.')
     
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  22. almondblight Arcane

    almondblight
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    Shady Sands is a boring town, but it's a town. It has walls, the entrance is guarded, it has agricultural areas, it has leaders that want you to help out with the radscorp problem, etc. It feels like a place. In FO2, you start in the oddball "tribal" area, then go to Klamath, which feels unfinished (I remember it being basically a bar in the middle of nowhere), then the Den, which is supposed to be an anarchic area but ironically ends up feeling like the most cohesive town yet, then Modoc, which is a goofy LULZ area, and then finally Vault City, which is probably the first place that feels like a real town (maybe some people get to Redding first).

    I only played a bit of the beginning of Arcanum, but the dialogue really turned me off (and the combat was a lot worse than Fallout from what I saw). You say that you get Ian randomly? Sure, but they at least try to justify it by having you pay him (or giving him a "cut of the action," which he never takes). Virgil just comes up to you acting like a psychopath - "Hey, you crashed in that blimp? Mind if I randomly start following you around? Oh, you do? Well, please please let me follow you around!" Then when a villager finds you and starts acting like a normal person ("Oh, a crash...maybe I should get help"), Virgil tries to convince you to kick his ass (and of course, acting like a psychopath is the right choice because this is an RPG).
     
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  23. Neanderthal Arcane

    Neanderthal
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    MCA sometimes hits nail square on head.
     
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  24. ItsChon Cipher Patron

    ItsChon
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    Polish a turd it's still a turd. You hit the nail on the head in your descriptions of Klamath, Modoc, and Den; they don't feel like towns at all. As for Shady Sands, while it is a town, it doesn't have a single character that I found particularly interesting, or anything that was really interesting at all.
    The combat was much worse than Fallout's, though Fallout still has horrid combat. I also personally didn't like Arcanum very much and there is a reason why I said glimpses of good dialogue and setting versus outright saying good dialogue and setting. Say what you want about Virgil, he was more interesting than Ian; and there were other interactions in the town that were interesting. Say the Gnome for example, that tries to finesse you out of your ring. I played Arcanum for like an hour and a half before I couldn't stand it anymore so I really can't give a prolonged comparison; either way, both games are bad. UnderRail is infinitely better than FO1, 2, and Arcanum in almost every aspect.
     
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  25. Bester Arcane Patron Vatnik

    Bester
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    You were saying FO2's setting lacked in realism. And now you say realism as a mechanic is bad.
     
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