Interview "A lot of faith, and a good head for risk": How two men risked their livelihoods for a new Torment

[Infinitron]

Infinitron, what do you think about Alpha Protocol?

Not much to say. Interesting concept, crap game.

I'm not seeing the part where side quests affect other side quests.

That's right, but it describes an even more finely-grained level of reactivity. Micro-actions affecting other micro-actions within a single side quest.

What Bioware game does anything like what was described there?

 

[Volourn]

"Actually Lord of the Rings isn't a trilogy. It was printed in 3 volumes but made up of 6 books within it and was a single novel that was split up due to post war paper issues and price concerns. Please when you want to use a fact get it right."

Talkin' about the shitty movie trilogy not the shitty books. U FUK NUTZ

 

[Humanity has risen!]

Haha this is ridiculous, Moribund has it right. Sad attempt at getting edgy, anti establishment indie street cred. As if something like Torment wouldn't have materialized into a multi million dollar project to milk all the grown up emo gothic teens who played it.

Poor poor indies. This is nothing like true garage studios like Frictional who live below poverty level or many others who have barely enough to eat.

I'm cancelling my pledge, I can't stand such pretentiousness.

 

[Infinitron]

Haha this is ridiculous, Moribund has it right. Sad attempt at getting edgy, anti establishment indie street cred. As if something like Torment wouldn't have materialized into a multi million dollar project to milk all the grown up emo gothic teens who played it.

Poor poor indies. This is nothing like true garage studios like Frictional who live below poverty level or many others who have barely enough to eat.

I'm cancelling my pledge, I can't stand such pretentiousness.

Good fucking riddance.

 

[winterraptor]

It's partially marketing for sure. They know their niche audience and know exactly what to say to rally the troops. See also Brian Fargo's shots at publishers and the industry back during the Wasteland 2 campaign. I believe some of it is legitimate (Fargo seems so anyway), but I don't believe for a second that all of these kickstarter devs just suddenly broke from their shells and decided to make games like "DA CLASSICS!" again. I mean, looking at MCA's Arcanum playthrough makes it obvious he doesn't even play those kinds of games, yet he goes on talking about how he's so glad to be working on Wasteland 2 and such.

I don't feel the need to be too cynical about it. I buy it - people settle for doing things they don't entirely want to do/ are not so jazzed about to pay the bills, when they may want to challenge themselves more than that, or just to call the shots and make games how they want to. Not sure it matters what classic CRPGs they played recently either - its pretty much still 'by gamers for gamers' when the guys are PnP enthusiasts (not to mention they probably end up 'playing' the games they create in various capacities to complete death). If they weren't CRPG makers they might be PnP RPG makers. And its not as if the world is overflowing with these games to keep new interest up.

I believe MCA's excuse for Arcanum was he avoided it knowing it had broken combat.

 

[Mangoose]

Volly was quite correct earlier, Bioware's post-NWN games have more narrative reactivity than Torment ever did.

Perhaps only with respect to the main storyline. Not with respect to side quests and multiple factions and NPCs.

Torment had reactivity with side quests, factions, and NPCS? News to me. Unless you're referring to how you have the option of joining every faction.

A) That's already more reactivity than having no faction-based gameplay at all.

B) You need to be an Anarchist to be able to technically join all the factions. Otherwise you can only be in one at a time. This affects what items you can use/equip.

C) Most quests had multiple branches or at least endings. And in PST many of the available choices in quests were dependent on your stats and skill choices, meaning your build affected the narrative - meaning that gameplay in PST affected the plot. Furthermore, the differing quest choices resulted in different quest rewards or changes, so gameplay affected plot which affects gameplay.

Let me know when Bioware post-NWN writes a character storyline which has a difficulty or availability dependent on your stat build.

And the better thing is, since stats can be developed through the game, the stat stipulation for said quests affects the choices you make when you develop your character.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Yup. Can't make a compelling game out of pass/fail checks. http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/654812230

No, you make a compelling game out of well-executed minigames.

By the way, there's no such a thing as a well-executed minigames in existence. But like always, Sawyer is babbling about some utopic concepts and you keep lapping it up.

Even if those minigames would be "well-executed" they are not necessary to give tactical decision to skill checks. They're just the easy way out and that's all Sawyer is capable of and this is his whole design philosophy. Minigames have been and will always be created for dumbshits who think it's "not fair that my character can't do things he has no skills for (((".

 

[Roguey]

A) That's already more reactivity than having no faction-based gameplay at all.

This sounds like a cosmetic issue. "You can join these factions" means nothing really. Unless you think Oblivion is one of the most reactive games ever.

B) You need to be an Anarchist to be able to technically join all the factions. Otherwise you can only be in one at a time. This affects what items you can use/equip.

So?

C) Most quests had multiple branches or at least endings.

No.

And in PST many of the available choices in quests were dependent on your stats and skill choices, meaning your build affected the narrative - meaning that gameplay in PST affected the plot.

Character creation isn't gameplay. Moreover this is also true for Bioware games.

Furthermore, the differing quest choices resulted in different quest rewards or changes, so gameplay affected plot which affects gameplay.

See above.

Let me know when Bioware post-NWN writes a character storyline which has a difficulty or availability dependent on your stat build.

As I said, pretty much all of them.

And the better thing is, since stats can be developed through the game, the stat stipulation for said quests affects the choices you make when you develop your character.

Choosing nothing but paragon/renegade/wisdom allows me to choose more of these options, truly amazing.

 

[Roguey]

Yup. Can't make a compelling game out of pass/fail checks. http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/654812230

No, you make a compelling game out of well-executed minigames.

Yep. Combat is a minigame.

 

[Lancehead]

Modern BioWare games that I've played (DAO, ME, ME2) have lots of C&C. That's not something BioWare is failing at.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Talking to you is a minigame. And not a well-executed one.

Character creation isn't gameplay.

Get the fuck out of RPGs.

 

[Moribund]

Arcomage is the only acceptable minigame. Like my little mini rant to the BaK guy KNOW YOUR AUDIENCE, don't just speak the language the cool kids do. But I think that Fargo does know the audience.

As for removing the pledge like HHR goes, I wouldn't do that just over this interview. I only expect writers to be able to write well, MCA and Colin don't have to be guys who host batttletech tourneys on the weekend to do that any more than the programmers need to be. But I do hope that the "producers" or "designers" or whatever the hell are doing a good job with the game system.

Of course I'm not pledging anyway since it's not turn based and doesn't even have DnD. So I guess it doesn't matter if I would or wouldn't remove the pledge I don't have. But I'll pick it up eventually if the people here who aren't total tards seem to like it.

 

[Infinitron]

Once again, Roguey's compulsive contrarianism leads him to defend things not worth defending.

Stick to Sawyer, dude, at least that's interesting.

And by the way, Josh considers using stat checks in Project Eternity to be acceptable. Or have you forgotten about that?

 

[Roguey]

And by the way, Josh considers using stat checks in Project Eternity to be acceptable. Or have you forgotten about that?

Josh is very much against pass/fail dialogue mechanics. He even acknowledged that it was wrong of them to do this in New Vegas.

 

[Infinitron]

Roguey Stat checks, not skill checks.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/62...wyer-at-iron-tower-studio/page-6#entry1288404

Speech as a skill is the thing that I think produces the most quasi-/metagaming. Attribute/ability score checks tend to not produce the same problem since you can often be more egalitarian about what attributes are checked and how often. With a Speech skill (or equivalent), its whole raison d'être is to gain advantage in conversation. That's not true even for stats like Charisma or Intelligence in D&D.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/62...wyer-at-iron-tower-studio/page-7#entry1288681

Just a reminder: Icewind Dale II was the only Infinity Engine game to have a dialogue skill (three, in fact). BG, BG2, IWD, and PS:T and related expansions all used ability scores and other more-or-less fixed character attributes like class and race. IMO, if you're going to have stat-based unlocks, I'd rather do that type of unlocking because it's often easier/more sensible to spread the checks out more evenly.

OOPS, you just got out-stalked.

 

[Shadenuat]

Bioware and other developers of modern "RPG's" need some good beating. But InXile still has to prove that they can actually deliver.

 

[Roguey]

A win button is a win button. Stat checks in Plainshit won't be win buttons. There will be choice agony. Unlike Torment where the clearly superior options were the wise and intelligent lines.

 

[Mangoose]

A) That's already more reactivity than having no faction-based gameplay at all.

This sounds like a cosmetic issue. "You can join these factions" means nothing really. Unless you think Oblivion is one of the most reactive games ever.

B) You need to be an Anarchist to be able to technically join all the factions. Otherwise you can only be in one at a time. This affects what items you can use/equip.

So?

You tell me. So?

C) Most quests had multiple branches or at least endings.

No.

Yes.

And in PST many of the available choices in quests were dependent on your stats and skill choices, meaning your build affected the narrative - meaning that gameplay in PST affected the plot.

Character creation isn't gameplay.

It is if stats affect gameplay, in both combat and dialogue, and stat rewards are a result of gameplay, both dialogue and leveling.

Moreover this is also true for Bioware games.

No.

Let me know when Bioware post-NWN writes a character storyline which has a difficulty or availability dependent on your stat build.

As I said, pretty much all of them.

Don't be retarded. Name a single storyline in the DA or ME series where a choice requires you to have a specific skill or stat.

And the better thing is, since stats can be developed through the game, the stat stipulation for said quests affects the choices you make when you develop your character.

Choosing nothing but paragon/renegade/wisdom allows me to choose more of these options, truly amazing.

Yes, PST already has alignment in the form of Lawful-Chaos/Good-Evil. Nice to know that ME has a neutered similar alignment system, and has no choice requirements outside of those paragon/renegade. Whereas in PST choices can depend on class, stats, AND/or alignment.

I'm talking about stats and skills outside of alignment systems, obviously.

 

[Moribund]

"Combat is a minigame" is one of the prime tenants of Sawyerism. And it's obsessive trollism not contraryism. When you really have it rammed down your throat by roguey sawyer becomes quite grating.

 

[Infinitron]

A win button is a win button. Stat checks in Plainshit won't be win buttons. There will be choice agony. Unlike Torment where the clearly superior options were the wise and intelligent lines.

Ah, so you admit stat checks aren't always bad. That's a start.

Some backers have already expressed concern about the over-poweredness of Wis and Int in PS:T, so I shall optimistically assume that the new game will rectify that issue and make its stats more useful all around.

However, regardless of how they are implemented, stat checks are a form of fine-grained reactivity not often seen in AAA RPGs.

 

[Roguey]

C) Most quests had multiple branches or at least endings.

No.

Yes.

I remember most quests being linear like an adventure game. Prove that most of them have branches and multiple outcomes.

Don't be retarded. Name a single storyline in the DA or ME series where a choice requires you to have a specific skill or stat.

Many quests in Dragon Age involve the use of the coercion skill. At least one sidequest each requires stealing, herbalism, trap-making, poison making, and survival. Cunning and Willpower are checked a few times. You can only get the blood mage spec if your character is a mage. In DAII, your dominant tone and the presence of certain companions determines the availability of certain dialogue options.

Yes, PST already has alignment in the form of Lawful-Chaos/Good-Evil. Nice to know that ME has a neutered similar alignment system, and has no choice requirements outside of those paragon/renegade. Whereas in PST choices can depend on class, stats, AND/or alignment.

I'm talking about stats and skills outside of alignment systems, obviously.

I don't see how the number of sources you can draw from matters.

It's just so absurd how when someone likes something, they often believe it does literally everything better than something they dislike.

 

[FeelTheRads]

It's just so absurd how when someone likes something, they often believe it does literally everything better than something they dislike.

Oh, the irony.

 

[Roguey]

Some backers have already expressed concern about the over-poweredness of Wis and Int in PS:T, so I shall optimistically assume that the new game will rectify that issue and make its stats more useful all around.

That shouldn't be too hard since Numenera literally has three. Might/health, speed/agility, and intellect/personality. One might find them analogous to Skyrim's health, magicka, and stamina.

 

[Infinitron]

I don't see how the number of sources you can draw from matters.

So, ToN's five Tides system is no more interesting to you than a simple good/evil binary system?

 

[Roguey]

I don't see how the number of sources you can draw from matters.

So, ToN's five Tides system is no more interesting to you than a simple good/evil binary system?

I'm saying "this game checks this this and this" tells me nothing. Alpha Protocol has more narrative reactivity than Torment and Thorton didn't have an "alignment" nor did it have any stats. The only skill I remember being checked in a dialogue/cutscene was Brilliance. I remember reading someone claiming that one particular cutscene is different if you have a high martial arts skill but I didn't have the opportunity to check for differences.