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Advices for first Temple+ Run

Discussion in 'ToEE Modding' started by Wened, Jan 15, 2017.

  1. Wened Novice

    Wened
    Joined:
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    I tried to beat TOEE several times in the past but alvays failed due to bugs.

    Now ill try again using CO8 New content and Temple+ but i have some questions first:

    1. If im only taking one arcane spellcaster (non specialized wizard) what spell focus feat should i take. In the past i always took evocation (For aoe dammage) but maybe other options are better.

    Also are any metamagic feats worth taking?

    2. Are clerics better as melee (Power attack + cleave) or as casters (spell feats)

    I made a Pelorite cleric (Sun and str domains) for melee and destroing unded.

    3. Is sneak attack viable in later levels (Both endgame and added Co8 content).

    And if so what is most fun option: Halfling slinger (rapid schoot), Dual wielding rogue or some multiclass barb/warrior?

    So far im planning a Halfling Warrior4 RogueX focused on slings

    4. As i remember opening locks and disabling devices was preety useless in most of vanila TOEE. Is it any different in CO8 content? Would be a bummer if i decide to go without a rogue just to discover that Verbonc is full of chests and traps :)

    5. Are monks viable lategame? For my warriors i can eventually craft op weapons and armours. Can monk be usefull compared to fully geared warrior?

    6. If i decide to take 2 Wizzards i could specialise them differently. What school specialization and spell focus would be optimal for them both?
     
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  2. deuxhero Arcane

    deuxhero
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    1: Conjuration hold all the nasty crippling stuff (web, grease, glitterdust, stinking cloud, cloudkill) that can end an encounter in one spell and qualifys for Augment Summoning
    As for Metamagic, Quicken is good at latter levels to pair with True Strike or (as a battle Cleric) Divine Favor

    2: There's no real support for caster clerics in ToEE, so a Wizard/Sorc will always be better if you're making a caster. Battle Cleric has far better support and options
    For Cleric you'll want the good domain so you can make Holy weapons.

    3: No. Sneak Attack is always finky to work with and will be out-damaged by a good fighter. The most fun option is likely Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster or Assassin, which can semi-reliably start Sneak Attack with in-class invisibility.

    Trying to focus on slings or a small weapon attacker is a recipe for failure.

    4: I remember there were a bunch of doors and chests with no key in the original game and a rogue is mandatory if you don't want to miss a bunch of treasure latter on.

    5: No. I'm not sure how ToEE handles Druid/Monk multiclasses, but if it does favorably that's the only way to make them viable

    6: I'd go with 1 Wizard focused on crafting, utility and versatility and 1 sorcerer focused on raw blasting and shutdown or 1 pure wizard and 1 eldritch knight/1 arcane trickster before 2 pure wizards.

    My party last play was Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster, Paladin 2/Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight, pure wizard, pure battle cleric (should be CG for a special item latter on, though if you have Elmo and aren't exploting you don't need to bother), Fighter 4/Ranger X archer, and Elmo with an NPC sorcerer added late. 3 of these were things I've never used before (Archer and prestige classes) but it worked pretty well. Wouldn't take both caster hybrids at once though (way too back ended, you're only OK at either for 8 levels) and would make the Rogue an Assassin instead now that lax rules are in.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2017
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  3. Endarire Learned

    Endarire
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    Our team has used a Human LN Male Rogue1/Wizard2 going Rogue1/Wizard5/Fighter1/Eldritch KnightX and a Human NG Female Druid3/DruidX. Characters paused their leveling at 3 to accumulate EXP fastest.

    However, we've used some NPCs and custom crafting PCs.

    NPCs
    -Burne (got to ECL15 due to EXP accumulation, but leveled to 12 for crafting). He's the game's best Wizard companion due to starting at LEVEL 8 and being able to cast spells and make scrolls of LEVEL 4 and below spells! (Improved invisibility for the win!)

    -Oohlgrist: Barbarian1/Fighter2 (with Power Attack and Great Cleave) going for Barb1/Fighter2/Rogue1/Ranger1 (Evil Outsiders)/Rogue+13/Fighter+2 (Glaive Specialization)/Blackguard3/RogueX/BlackguardX/AssassinX. He's the game's best melee companion due to regeneration, racial HD, high physical stats, and being permanently Large.

    -Thrommel: The Sword of Always Hitting (Back): Enlarge him, use protection from evil on him, then have him start a fight with the Balor. Bubble him then your caster (Otiluke's resilient sphere), haste the Balor, and laugh as one of the game's 'raid bosses' cleverly suicides himself since he can't detect any other party members.

    PCs
    -LG Cleric of Heironeous: Got to ECL8ish but leveled to 7. She did Holy Lawful weapons. Even for Oohl. They're just that powerful.

    -Human Wizard: Got to ECL15 but leveled to 12. She got the party's items to +4, made various wondrous items, and acted as a high-level caster briefly before finishing with the nodes.
     
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  4. Salute on playing ToEE again. Great game. I played it completely "blind" in a YouTube LP. Got to the Temple itself and had some success even though I barely knew what I was doing. :P

    I have to go back sometime and try to finish it. The Temple itself seems to have a bunch of great exploration. I really have nothing to input for your questions but I wish you luck in your playthrough!
     
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  5. Wened Novice

    Wened
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    Thnks for all the answers. Will need some time to think it over.

    About rogue, Is Barb4 RogueX using polearms a good idea?


    Also. Is thera a redmee for temple+? witch info on all prestige classes and extra content?

    How can i learn about prerequisites for prestige classes?
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2017
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  6. Endarire Learned

    Endarire
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    Prereqs for classes and PrCs should be on the mouseover or initial click in ToEE.

    Polearms for the win for everyone martial!
     
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  7. Wened Novice

    Wened
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    As always in TOEE im not sure how should i generate my stats.

    14 Years ago i cheated to get all 18 on all characters :)

    Few years ago i decided to distribute "Realistic" stats. All part members got 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8. Distributed according to class.

    Today i used Temple+ to make 32points pointbuy. But im not sure about this one.

    How do people do it usually?
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2017
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  8. IMO it's not fun to give everyone super stats or cheat in RPGs like this, but it's your call. The game is after all based heavily on the combat and character building.
     
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  9. Endarire Learned

    Endarire
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    Having played a small team game in ToEE where the team members started with 18s in all stats...

    -It's mostly a convenience for everyone but the main character. In a solo or duo game, you effectively need a team that can "do everything." (Setting your initial stats with a different point buy is part of T+ and therefore not cheating, just like if your GM let you start with a base 20 in each stat. It's a different sort of game.)

    -The game is still a challenge. No matter how high your starting stats, you don't get extra actions per character each turn.

    -The difference between a +0 and a +4 in your stats (including starting stats) is +4. In many cases in ToEE, that's a 20% difference. What matters more is whether you can qualify for certain prereqs, like having 13 INT for Combat Expertise, 13 DEX for Dodge, and 13 STR for Power Attack all while being a viable character. (A certain very powerful Barbarian NPC is the game's best martial companion, but can't qualify for Combat Expertise because he's too dumb. That's dumb.) Higher stats probably matter for martial characters since a caster-focused character could probably get by with a maxed casting stat and DEX with only a moderate CON and dump stats elsewhere without noticing much difference.

    -It's possible to get all 18s or close to it by spending lots of time rolling stats. This gets to the point.

    -This is your game. You own it. How much time do you want to spend customizing your characters? Reloading saves?
     
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  10. I knew nothing about it and made it really far without having to do anything special with the stats. If you want to do that, go for it! It does sound like it doesn't impact the game all that much.
     
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  11. pippin Guest

    pippin
    TOEE is not "hard". The early stages can be somewhat dissapointing, but that's because you're a scrub. But there's always a way to deal with stuff, like any other good DND game.
     
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  12. Wened Novice

    Wened
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    I decided to use 42 pointbuy. If i wont be challenged enought then i will use less points on a second go (30 maybe)

    After much pondering i finally deciced on my party:


    1. Human Paladin of Pelor
    16,12,10,14,14,18

    Power attack and cleave.
    She will be the face of my party.


    2. Human Priest of Pelor (Sun and Str domains)
    16,12,14,10,16,16

    Power attack and cleave.
    Im not sure about these feats. Maybe Conjuration and improved summoning would be better. Are summoned creatures still moving slow?


    3. HalfOrc Barbarian
    18,18,14,8,10,6

    Power attack and cleave. He will use polearms.


    4. Halfling Fighter4 RogueX
    10,20,14,16,10,12

    I Plan to make him a dual wielding flanker.
    Improved Initiative, Shortsword focus and specialisation, Two weapon fighting skills.


    5. Halfling Wizzard (no specialisation)
    10,20,14,18,8,8

    Improved Initiative at start.

    Im really not sure what feats to take on a wizzard after first level.
    Because of good ranged accuracy i will deffinitely use ray attacks (ray of enfeblement, acid arrow) And these have no saving throws.
    I will use evocation to clear large groups of mobs, but i do not need to specialise in evocation to kill lots of low level goons.

    Im almost convinced to take Improved Enchantment feats or Improved Necromancy feats. To nerf my enemies while my 4 melee wipe them out.


    Can You bros please comment on my team composition?
     
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  13. deuxhero Arcane

    deuxhero
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    Dual wielding doesn't really work all that well, especially with a 3/4 BAB class like rogue. Cleave isn't a great feat either. Instead get Combat Reflexes, which adds to more attacks than Cleave will (especially once you get gloves of dexterity for the person using it). Optimally get your main melee fighter 13 intelligence then Improved Trip, as Trip is pretty useful in ToEE, especially with T+ letting you do it on AoEs.

    Your Cleric really should have the Good domain (needed for Holy Smite spell, which is meh but required to make Holy weapons which are really useful) and Craft Magic Arms and Armor while your Wizard has Craft Wonderous Item. ToEE hands you few magic items (despite 3E assuming high level PCs have them for math), yet gives you a shit ton of money without any way to spend it so crafting is mandatory if you don't want the end-game to be a slog. Sun Domain isn't the worst, but most undead in ToEE are low level enough you'll destroy them with unboosted Turn Undead anyways, so it can safely be replaced with the Good domain.
     
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  14. Endarire Learned

    Endarire
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    I advise going Human for all characters. Make your face character (spokesman) male with a Rogue level to start. Pick Neutral Good (NG) as your starting alignment to allow you to have CG and LG characters. Make every character who can be Chaotic Good that way. (If you go Paladin, make him LG.)

    Everyone should start with Improved Initiative. Anyone going into melee should have Combat Reflexes and use either a Glaive (if proficient with martial weapons) or a Longspear (if proficient with simple weapons). That will solve a lot of problems. All melee characters should eventually have Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Cleave, and Great Cleave - in that order. These are simply the best melee feats.

    The best craft feats are, from best to worst, Craft Wondrous (L3), Craft Arms & Armor (L5), Forge Ring (L11), Craft Wand (L5), then everything else. I ignored Scribe Scroll for this list since the class that needs it most (Wizard) starts with it.

    The best metamagic feats vary by build, but for Wizards, Clerics, and Druids, are probably akin to this list - from best to worst: Quicken Spell (+4 but extra spells per turn!), Empower Spell (+2 but lets you use 10d6 * 1.5 damaging spells in L5 slots like fireballl), Maximize Spell (+3 to make spells deal constant high damage), then everything else. For Sorcerers, Heighten becomes the #1 pick so you can use spells in higher level slots and Quicken becomes useless (because WotC hated you).

    Unless your character specializes in WISdom (being a Cleric, a Druid, or a face), dump it as low as the game will let you. Use protection from evil and magic circle against evil to prevent (to my current knowledge) all enemy Will saves from working on your team.

    Being able to melee is useful for anyone potentially - if they have the right stats. Melee is reliable damage that doesn't rely tremendously on spell slots to be effective, but can be augmented tremendously via spells.

    CLERIC
    -Good & Strength Domains OR, if crafting, Good & Law Domains (to make Lawful Good weapons of +4d6 damage per hit against most foes in ToEE). If you go Law & Good domains, be a LG Cleric of Heironeous!

    -Don't focus on turning in this game. Not worth it beyond level 4ish.

    -Give him Craft Arms & Armor for Holy and possibly Holy Lawful weapons. Later, if you feel so inclined, also give him Forge Ring for Rings of Freedom of Movement and Rings of Major Resist Energy. If you want to share the crafting burden further, also give him Craft Wondrous Item for misc. things.

    DRUID
    -Rogue/Fighter is not that useful unless you're making him your face. Druid is. You get a free disposable Wolf pet (and later a Dire Bear pet) as a class feature. Plus Barkskin, Entangle, and Soften Earth and Stone which are the best Druid spells that aren't summons. Plus you get spontaneous Druid summons (mostly for wolves and bears).

    PALADIN
    -Not a fan due to the ability to lose your Paladin status, but Paladin2/Sorcerer6/Eldritch KnightX is a solid way to make this character useful and capitalize on a high CHA. Possibly start with a Rogue level and go Rogue1/Paladin2/Sor6/EKX.

    WIZARD
    -Mage Armor. Grease. Glitterdust. Web. Stinking Cloud. Summons (especially SumMon IV for Fiendish Dire Wolves and SumMon VI for Chain Devils). These are your mainstays as a Wizard. They're also all Conjurations. That may be worth your specialization, opposing Enchantment and Necromancy. (Enchantment is good for charms and greater heroism. Necromancy is good for horrid wilting and wail of the banshee. Aside from niche uses and experimentation, neither is worth much in ToEE.)

    -Enlarge Person. Haste. These are the best Transmutations. (The animal buffs like Eagle's Splendor are useful but only for crafting.)

    -Protection from Evil. Magic Circle against Evil. Stoneskin. Resist Energy. Protection from Energy. These are the best Abjurations.

    -Magic Missile. Fireball. Chain Lightning. (Scintillating Sphere and Snowball Swarm if you have Rudy's Item Mod 0.7 or later.) Delayed Blast Fireball. Otiluke's Resilient Sphere. These are the best Evocations.

    -Invisibility. Greater Invisibility. As of Temple+ 1.0.29, almost NOTHING in ToEE (even Temple+) can detect invisibility. Proceed to win easily. Just make sure your ENTIRE PARTY is invisible except for those you want to handle aggro.

    -Clairvoyance. This is the only notably useful Divination spell, but also lets you dump summons on enemies from across the map. All NPC vendors can Identify for 100G, and casting the spell costs 100G.

    LAST CHARACTER (PROBABLY A ROGUE)
    -Rogue1/Wizard5/Rogue+2/Arcane TricksterX is a solid build that doesn't stick you with too many Rogue levels. Don't recommend Two-Weapon Fighting over the above feats, but, normally, Rogue for TWF + Sneak Attack per hit is worth it.
     
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  15. Wened Novice

    Wened
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    Why Male? Why one level of rogue (is it because of skill points at level 1?).

    Whats the significance of CG and LG aligments? (restricted cointent?)
     
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  16. Jason Liang Arcane

    Jason Liang
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    Male so you can presumably marry Fruella or Melanie or both.

    Yes, rogue for skill points, stealth and tumble.

    Alignment is important later on for crafting holy weapons.
     
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  17. Endarire Learned

    Endarire
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    Rogue1 at level 1 gets you access to a lot of skills and skill points. Appraise, Tumble, Search, and Disable Device are useful to you. Use Magic Device (UMD) is probably not worth it on him due to having so many casters.

    If you have a Rogue, I advise you make him your face. Stuff in Hommlet probably only requires +5 to social skills. Stuff later seems to cap at +14 or so.

    If you're going martial Rogue (meaning not a casty one), I advise Rogue1/Barbarian1/Fighter2/Barbarian+1/Rogue+X. This gets you skill points, BAB, Fighter feats, fast movement, Uncanny Dodge, and Rage.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2017
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  18. Wened Novice

    Wened
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    If i get "Uncany dodge" from rogue, and later i get the same feat from a barbarian levels, will it transform into "Improved uncany dodge"?. I remember my MG was doing it when someone mixed Barb2 and Rogue4 on one character.
     
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  19. Endarire Learned

    Endarire
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    Wened: This is true. Improved Uncanny Dodge only counts class levels for classes where you already have (Improved) Uncanny Dodge. Thus, a Rogue13/Barbarian1 only counts Improved Uncanny Dodge as a Rogue13.

    Normal Uncanny Dodge is normally good enough.
     
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  20. MotherMachinae Arcane

    MotherMachinae
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    I updated.my.journal.txt a lot by reading this thread. Now I'm sitting with tab open and on the other display have Temple+.exe running and rolling good but after that there are options that I don't know how to put to good use (maybe it's time to refresh manual). Certainly go with Rogue lvl1 leader mouth. Beside RangerX/Rogue1 went with pure classes. And Wiz with Conjuration (can't spell these names properly still).
    And yeah I beat the game twice, every time promised myself "now I'm gonna see Velkborg" only to uninstall.exe the whole game and loosing saves when the reinstall time happen...
    I found thread with portrait packs but for some bizzare reason you can only use one pack at time, had to choose between Lois Royo or IWD1+2 packs, that was tough.

    What I never though to do is to use Prince to fight against Balor. Funny that I don't remember my last encounter with him that much ptsd-inducting like first time (which was absolute anus-devouring experience despite having better team).

    My monk was absolute failure that barely hit anything and did some damage when he did, checked manual but couldn't find source of this issue. Had no such problem in other games like IWD1/2 or NWN1/2... then gave him that sword from chest set few steps from the head of earh (?) temple? Or was it cheftan of earth temple? anyway - my monk sucked major balls and started being useful when I gave him that sword even though he got only basic proficiency with it.
     
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  21. Endarire Learned

    Endarire
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    Greetings, Mother!

    "Conjuration" is correctly spelled.

    ToEE mimics tabletop D&D as much as practical. This means Monk is the worst class of core. (A Monk simply needs too much compared to every other class to be useful.) While ToEE doesn't translate everything 1:1, just read about why each class is in its tier. This explains a lot.
     
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  22. Mathalor Educated

    Mathalor
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    1. I actually wound up making a spreadsheet to answer this for myself. evocation and necromancy have a lot of options. enchantment does too, though a lot of those are dominate/charm. Illusion has color spray and phantasmal image (instant death if they fail TWO saves). Conjuration has some good cc stuff, like glitterdust, stinking cloud, cloudkill, and grease. Transmutation has slow and disintegrate, and enlarge/reduce. Abjuration has a few banishment spells, but that's it.

    I personally wound up taking enchantment and conjuration.

    I was tempted by illusion, cause I made a gnome, but phantasmal image is most of what it affects, and the double saving throw really isn't reliable. I don't like necromancy's flavor, and I wanted a caster that didn't rely on blasting, so I didn't go with evocation. Slow is nice enough to tempt me, but I didn't like disintegrate (didn't want to take precise shot), and I like conjuration more than slow and nothing else.

    2. I haven't played around much with melee clerics. I did build a caster cleric. During challenging fights, I cast a lot of buffs/debuffs. Otherwise I blast them with flame strike and other spells. I think it's effective. I had an 18 wisdom for dcs, spell penetration feats, and spell focus evocation. And quick spell, but I took that on all my casters for double actions per round.

    3. Sneak attack is viable at later levels, and will outdamage a warrior significantly if your rogue is built properly. Some things are immune to it, though, mostly plants and the undead. I max my umd on my rogue and give her the golden orb, fungus figurine, etc. She's a backup caster when she's up against something that ignores her sneak attack.

    Edit: This game includes some weapons that will never miss, allowing a warrior with power attack to drain his entire attack bonus. That would be much more competitive with my rogue, but feels cheesy to me. I didn't know when I made my warrior that the thorned chains of love could miss, but I'm okay with it.

    Sneak attack damage is per hit, so to build a rogue to maximize her damage, you want as many attacks per round as possible, at the highest accuracy you can manage. I went for ranged with rapid shot and used my caster to give her improved invisibility (or to blind/stun my foes). The other option is a melee rogue with two weapon fighting. given weapon finesse and other feats, a melee rogue could do one or two more attacks per round than my ranged rogue (after he gets in melee range), but I don't like having to keep my rogue alive constantly.

    Also, the last time I tried a melee rogue, my weapon finesse feat was bugged. It added to my attack roll, but didn't let me ignore my strength attack penalty.

    4. Trap skills can be bypassed entirely with knock and a few other spells. I think they're fun, though.

    5. Monks are multiple attribute dependant, but if you have the patience to farm some good rolls, you could make a nice monk. I don't like using direct melee, I prefer longspears for my divine casters and spiked chain for my warrior (lack of armor means they're probably more fragile too), but a monk would bring stunning fist and higher damage per round (barring cheese).

    I use shiningted's domains mod, which includes rudy's item mod. The belt of outer perfection is a pain to craft, but incredibly effective. Unfortunately, it competes with the monk's belt. There's a feat in the monster manual that helps them a lot, increases your damage as if you were a size larger. It's not implemented in ToEE, though.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2017
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  23. Mathalor Educated

    Mathalor
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    I haven't played a monk extensively, so my answer for number 5 is mostly conjecture.

    I forgot to mention, elementals are immune to sneak attack as well as plants and the undead. Kind of a pain.


    6. I used spugnoir for a second wizard, but mostly just for crafting. I didn't specialize my party wizard, so between the two I was able to learn most of the spells (I'll need a third wizard if I want all of the level 7 spells).




    If no one has mentioned it, good general advice is to take tumble and improved initiative on everyone. I would also recommend reach weapons, though I wish they were implemented properly. I feel like I'm cheating whenever I get an attack at melee range (most of them aren't supposed to be able to do that, except the spiked chain) or when the stupid AI decides to charge at me when a 5 ft step would do.
     
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  24. Darth__KEK Literate

    Darth__KEK
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    I'm on my first-ever play of ToEE, which is nice as I have so much Co8 and T+ additional material.

    One thing to point out to n00bs is to sell your items to the right vendor for TWICE the gold, e.g. weapons to the Blacksmith, Bows and XBows to the Cabinet Maker, Gems & Jewelry to the Jewelers, Leather Armour to the Leathersmith, magic items to the Mage Tower.
     
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  25. Wened Novice

    Wened
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    Monks!

    How do i build a viable monk? I do understand that they are dependant on multiple stats.

    Is it viable to make a halfling str10 dex20 and weapon finese? Or should i max both str and dex to ever deal any damage?


    Druids!

    How do i build a viable/fun druid?

    Since Druids get spontaneus summoning should i go conjuration ->improved summons?

    Are wildshapes good from start to finish? To my understanding Temple+ added high level elemental shapeshift options.

    Can i focus on both shapeshifting and summoning? (natural casting, conjuration, imp. summoning)?
     
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