Game News Age of Decadence September Update

[John Yossarian]

This issue isn't really about specific examples, but here are some. In that mine with the monsters that degrade your melee weapons, you have to think of a way through. What I decided to do was have Magnus (I think that's his name?) make a TON of those low-level balanced swords, and equipped everybody with one no matter what their standard attack was in a normal situation. This was an original solution that I created by utilizing the resources I, uniquely, had available to me, to solve a specific problem. It was not a matter of clicking a dialogue option.

Actually, this kind of retarded stuff is possible in AoD too.
I decided, just for kicks, to take out the Thieves guild. Well, going inside their tavern is suicide, so, after some tries, I found a spot where the lethal knife throwing guy misses 90% of his throws (he misses 10% if you stand anywhere else). After that I made them chase me around town and used doors, columns and people as obstacles, and won.

Well, in both cases, it just means that the AI acts retarded. Same with the kobolds thing. Wouldn't they realize the guy is healing himself? That is what most of those "innovative" solutions boil down to. Find the point where the AI breaks. It can be fun, I give you that.

Edit:fucking quotes, and how do they work

 

[l3loodAngel]

Could you please list them, because when I played everything was pretty much predetermined. I am genuinely interested.

List what? You had full free movement over the game world. It was entirely up to you how you wanted to deal with something, and it was only sometimes "select this option to proceed". Think about the crafting system in Arcanum. Think about how you can exploit the crafting system to set up your own solutions to a variety of problems.

A free movement in a predetermined world, that let's you walk, where devs let you walk? That is an illusion of freedom rather than the freedom.
Could you please name those solutions if there are plenty?

Huh? The game is a set of open maps. You can explore them freely. "The designers designed them to be free and open!!" is not an enlightening argument.

Terron is open in a sense that you can fully explore it. I am not sure what argument could I call enlightening in this case. There are open world RPG's and there are linear RPG's.

Fairly standard shit. It's like in resident evil 2 you gave to win a level with limited ammo.

Yeah, RE2 is a good game too.

But how this this apply to this situation, where you call having limited resources - freedom? Due to overall difficulty you have to improvise a lot in AoD.

Well there are two problems with this freedom. First there are no Kobolds in AoD and second thing is that there is no magic. It might make sense to run away from enemies out of the cave and that they won't chase you after you have looted them, but I am not sure that would make sense in AoD setting.

Combat situations can be resolved through dialogue if you have the needed skills and there are plenty skills for that, but when the fight breaks out what do you expect?

No offense, but I don't see much value in talking to you. It is completely irrelevant that there are no kobolds or magic in AoD.

It is in a sense that people in a normal world would go after you, because you took their shit. You can come into my house and take my TV, but I will promise to go after you with a cleaver.

What you are describing in Arcanum is an absurd system where cobolds can't follow you through a cave entrance. That does not make any sense and that's the issue with the setting.

 

[l3loodAngel]

This issue isn't really about specific examples, but here are some. In that mine with the monsters that degrade your melee weapons, you have to think of a way through. What I decided to do was have Magnus (I think that's his name?) make a TON of those low-level balanced swords, and equipped everybody with one no matter what their standard attack was in a normal situation. This was an original solution that I created by utilizing the resources I, uniquely, had available to me, to solve a specific problem. It was not a matter of clicking a dialogue option.

Actually, this kind of retarded stuff is possible in AoD too.
I decided, just for kicks, to take out the Thieves guild. Well, going inside their tavern is suicide, so, after some tries, I found a spot where the lethal knife throwing guy misses 90% of his throws (he misses 10% if you stand anywhere else). After that I made them chase me around town and used doors, columns and people as obstacles, and won.

Well, in both cases, it just means that the AI acts retarded. Same with the kobolds thing. Wouldn't they realize the guy is healing himself? That is what most of those "innovative" solutions boil down to. Find the point where the AI breaks. It can be fun, I give you that.

There is an easier way. Just block the entrance door and take them out one by one and AI can't do shit. After you dealt with Lucius it becomes easy.

 

[John Yossarian]

Not for two-handed spearman. But still, ain't those solutions just great.

 

[l3loodAngel]

Not for two-handed spearman. But still, ain't those solutions just great.

Yes, I forgot how popular the 2H spear was... That weapon class changes combat a lot, that's why I didn't like it in the first place

 

[John Yossarian]

Yeah, I wonder if it should be changed to work more like swords. You know, so that we always get the same "designer-envisioned" experience through the game.

 

[suejak]

Yeah, those are good examples.

 

[Vault Dweller]

This issue isn't really about specific examples, but here are some. In that mine with the monsters that degrade your melee weapons, you have to think of a way through. What I decided to do was have Magnus (I think that's his name?) make a TON of those low-level balanced swords, and equipped everybody with one no matter what their standard attack was in a normal situation. This was an original solution that I created by utilizing the resources I, uniquely, had available to me, to solve a specific problem. It was not a matter of clicking a dialogue option.

Actually, this kind of retarded stuff is possible in AoD too.
I decided, just for kicks, to take out the Thieves guild. Well, going inside their tavern is suicide, so, after some tries, I found a spot where the lethal knife throwing guy misses 90% of his throws (he misses 10% if you stand anywhere else). After that I made them chase me around town and used doors, columns and people as obstacles, and won.

You made your own story!

 

[Saduj]

Some AoD criticisms I get. But I never understood why some people have a big problem with teleporting.

In the demo, you can explore Teron. There are encounters in Teron that you will only experience if you are exploring the town. They offer choices and affect your character's reputation and offer you a chance to kill and loot some people if you want. If you don't explore the town on your own, you're going to miss out on content. Some quests involve mandatory teleporting within Teron. They involve encounters that must take place at a certain location and time. This makes sense within the game world. You're working with other people and following a plan that they presented to you (and which you can turn down). If you're going to ambush a caravan or a powerful npc, it wouldn't make sense that you could just do so at any time especially when you need other people to help you do it. The only experience teleporting is really "cheating" you out of in these cases is having your character rest or wander around for a given amount of time and then moving him across the map to the desired location at the given time in order to meet up with your comrades. And realistically, you wouldn't be wandering around just minutes before attempting to rob a heavily guarded caravan. It would jeopardize the mission and be suspicious to your co-conspirators. You're going to be sitting in a room with your allies for several hours, waiting for someone to say "It's time" and I don't need (or want) to experience that within the game. The quests where timing and coordination aren't crucial don't require teleporting. You can walk from Feng's to the Inn if that is essential to your immersion. World map teleporting takes place in many games in some form or another. The lack of random encounters along the way in AoD does take away from the sense of danger associated with travel but its obviously a game balance issue. You could really abuse "body count" if grinding were possible in this game. Basically, it was a decision to remove a common game feature that is annoying in many games (random encounters) in favor of game balance and a fairly ambitious reputation system. Is it a perfect trade off? No. But at least the designer is erring in favor of offering something outside the norm.

Teleporting and having the skill checks within dialogue is going to allow someone to complete the quickest speed run we've ever seen in any game, to many lulz. But really whoever does that will have had to play the game for many hours before finding the optimal path, just like any speed run.

Now, if you want to bitch about skill checks requiring too much save scumming, I'm with you.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Some AoD criticisms I get. But I never understood why some people have a big problem with teleporting.

In the demo, you can explore Teron. There are encounters in Teron that you will only experience if you are exploring the town. They offer choices and affect your character's reputation and offer you a chance to kill and loot some people if you want. If you don't explore the town on your own, you're going to miss out on content. Some quests involve mandatory teleporting within Teron. They involve encounters that must take place at a certain location and time. This makes sense within the game world. You're working with other people and following a plan that they presented to you (and which you can turn down). If you're going to ambush a caravan or a powerful npc, it wouldn't make sense that you could just do so at any time especially when you need other people to help you do it. The only experience teleporting is really "cheating" you out of in these cases is having your character rest or wander around for a given amount of time and then moving him across the map to the desired location at the given time in order to meet up with your comrades. And realistically, you wouldn't be wandering around just minutes before attempting to rob a heavily guarded caravan. It would jeopardize the mission and be suspicious to your co-conspirators. You're going to be sitting in a room with your allies for several hours, waiting for someone to say "It's time" and I don't need (or want) to experience that within the game. The quests where timing and coordination aren't crucial don't require teleporting. You can walk from Feng's to the Inn if that is essential to your immersion. World map teleporting takes place in many games in some form or another. The lack of random encounters along the way in AoD does take away from the sense of danger associated with travel but its obviously a game balance issue.

This. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Now, if you want to bitch about skill checks requiring too much save scumming, I'm with you.

Suggestions?

 

[Saduj]

Now, if you want to bitch about skill checks requiring too much save scumming, I'm with you.

Suggestions?

You've made it pretty clear that people won't be playing super characters who are good at everything in this game so simply making the game eaiser (adding skill points/making check reqs lower) isn't going to happen. So let's say I am a thief who has been investing in thiefy skills equally. Because I have been spreading those points around and I don't know what next skill check will be, I fail a lockpick check. But I'm in the thieve's guild and they have to have someone who can pick locks better than I can because I currently stink at it. Maybe I can go back and persuade someone to come with me, for a fee. Or I pay for some training. Or if I am smart enough, I can study the lock and go back and speak to someone at the guild who has seen that type of lock before and who will tell me how to beat it, for a price (the skill check becomes easier just for that lock). And maybe if I'm always asking for help and can't do anything on my own my 'friends' will eventually decide that I'm not so useful so I need to be careful about how often I ask for help. So my reputation within my faction affects this. I'm relying on my friends and my background, not building a superman.

There is already some of that in the demo. It can't be applied to all situations but maybe it can be expanded.

 

[John Yossarian]

How about making checks where having related (like lockpick+traps), evenly spread-out skills is the requirement?

 

[Kalin]

I also took out the Thieves Guild, but just as I was enjoying my victory, I was surrounded by guards and thrown out of Teron.

 

[suejak]

This issue isn't really about specific examples, but here are some. In that mine with the monsters that degrade your melee weapons, you have to think of a way through. What I decided to do was have Magnus (I think that's his name?) make a TON of those low-level balanced swords, and equipped everybody with one no matter what their standard attack was in a normal situation. This was an original solution that I created by utilizing the resources I, uniquely, had available to me, to solve a specific problem. It was not a matter of clicking a dialogue option.

Actually, this kind of retarded stuff is possible in AoD too.
I decided, just for kicks, to take out the Thieves guild. Well, going inside their tavern is suicide, so, after some tries, I found a spot where the lethal knife throwing guy misses 90% of his throws (he misses 10% if you stand anywhere else). After that I made them chase me around town and used doors, columns and people as obstacles, and won.

You made your own story!

Well, sort of. He mostly just abused the AI to actually have fun in your game. Notice that what he did is fun to play, fun to tell, AND fun to read.

The important question is: How does taking out the Thieves' guild work?

Is it an option you select? Can you do it at any time?

I don't remember at all.

 

[Vault Dweller]

It's an option you select, obviously.

 

[suejak]

Wouldn't surprise me.

 

[suejak]

It's also worth clarifying that, pending details on that specific event, his example isn't comparable at all to using Magnus's blacksmithing skill to create disposable swords to get through an area full of weapon-destroying monsters. ESPECIALLY if it's an intentionally designed encounter, all he did is find a sweet spot on the map with wonky numbers that enabled him to beat a tough (and perhaps poorly designed) encounter.

My story from Arcanum presented a unique, interesting set of difficult circumstances that were probably intended to encourage unarmed or ranged fighting but that in theory had any number of awesome, creative solutions. The one I happened to think up created a very memorable experience that I still look back on fondly today, despite not having played that part of Arcanum for 11 years.

 

[Mozgoëbstvo]

Well, shee-it.

Fuck me for not seeing this post before.

Well, happy birthday a day late, Vince! Your whole post exudes palpable joy if compared to previous ones.
You must be feeling great to have cut the crap and devoted yourself to a goal. Well, good for you! I have nothing but
the best wishes for stuff to turn out fine in your life and, more prosaically, AoD itself.

And yes, you just have fessed up to having dragged a bad feature for a long time and why... that takes some guts, in front of the shitflinging palace,
our dear Codex.
I shall no longer hold any objection about your
modus operandi while dealing with feedback.

So, let's get this thing out. And while I never even finished the beta, EGADS, I will buy this game when it comes out, because of the principle
and what it represents.

Cheers again!

And if you don't see this post... well, fuck, good luck all the same.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Listen to my tale - a tale I made myself, mind you.

So saddened was I, when I ran into the golems which destroyed my finest weapons and armor without any regard for my property, that I went back into the wilderness and wandered there for days, seeking some solution to the golem dilemma. Those pesky kite warriors continued to harass me, which surely was a very unique experience, created by my state of grief. I slew a number of these beasts and then I noticed that they dropped crude daggers, made of recycled aluminum. At that very moment, I - me! - came up with my own solution that the developers surely didn't foresee, for there was no dialogue option telling me to wander into the wilderness and slay x number of pesky kite warriors. I armed myself and my unique group of adventurers and went back to the golems, which were waiting for me patiently, being unable to follow me into the wilderness and join me in the slaughter of the pesky kite warriors, which they would have undoubtedly enjoyed. So I proceeded poking them with the daggers, wondering what the developers were thinking and crafting my own story one dagger-poke at a time.

True story.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Well, shee-it.

Fuck me for not seeing this post before.

Well, happy birthday a day late, Vince! Your whole post exudes palpable joy if compared to previous ones.
You must be feeling great to have cut the crap and devoted yourself to a goal. Well, good for you! I have nothing but
the best wishes for stuff to turn out fine in your life and, more prosaically, AoD itself.

And yes, you just have fessed up to having dragged a bad feature for a long time and why... that takes some guts, in front of the shitflinging palace,
our dear Codex.
I shall no longer hold any objection about your
modus operandi while dealing with feedback.

So, let's get this thing out. And while I never even finished the beta, EGADS, I will buy this game when it comes out, because of the principle
and what it represents.

Cheers again!

And if you don't see this post... well, fuck, good luck all the same.

Thanks.

 

[suejak]

Listen to my tale - a tale I made myself, mind you.

So saddened was I, when I ran into the golems which destroyed my finest weapons and armor without any regard for my property, that I went back into the wilderness and wandered there for days, seeking some solution to the golem dilemma. Those pesky kite warriors continued to harass me, which surely was a very unique experience, created by my state of grief. I slew a number of these beasts and then I noticed that they dropped crude daggers, made of recycled aluminum. At that very moment, I - me! - came up with my own solution that the developers surely didn't foresee, for there was no dialogue option telling me to wander into the wilderness and slay x number of pesky kite warriors. I armed myself and my unique group of adventurers and went back to the golems, which were waiting for me patiently, being unable to follow me into the wilderness and join me in the slaughter of the pesky kite warriors, which they would have undoubtedly enjoyed. So I proceeded poking them with the daggers, wondering what the developers were thinking and crafting my own story one dagger-poke at a time.

True story.

Yeah, that solution actually never occurred to me. Awesome.

I dunno, you obviously intended this post to have a mocking tone to it, but honestly I thought it was a bash on AoD until I read who the author was. This story really puts your game to shame.

I guess the point you don't seem to get is that it doesn't matter if the designers thought of it or not. What matters is that you problem-solved on your own and made your own solution. There are a TON of solutions to this unique, interesting problem, and it's up to the player to come up with his own. And it's so fun to sit back and talk about all the different ways that we got through xyz problem. The designers can think of some of their own ideas and make those quietly available in the periphery, but there are probably solutions they never even thought of. That's the beauty of permitting such freedom within a complex system.

Now compare this to people sitting around and saying, "Yeah, I chose the option to try to pickpocket the guy. How about you?" "Oh, I chose the option to try to convince him to hand the item over to me but I kept failing the skill check. However, on my 10th reload I passed the skill check." "That's really cool. I'll try that out the next time I play."

Do you understand? I'm sure you'll just reply with another disingenuous jokey post that reads like a satire on your own game.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I guess the point you don't seem to get is that it doesn't matter if the designers thought of it or not. What matters is that you problem-solved on your own and made your own solution. There are a TON of solutions to this unique, interesting problem, and it's up to the player to come up with his own.

What I'm trying to tell you here is that it's not an interesting problem (neither is how to get on the roof of some pointless building in Deus Ex) and that the solutions are even less interesting, yet for you this mindless shite has become the essence of role-playing games, for some reason. You put it on a pedestal and think that it's emergent gameplay in action. It's not.

This problem is the same as being wounded in combat. OMG! I'm wounded! Did developers expect me to get wounded? I bet they expected me to go all the way back to town, but by golly, I'll carve my own path and tell my own tale! I'll drink a potion! I'll sleep! I'll cast a spell! My god, the possibilities are endless and unscripted!

Your conclusion that the developers expected you to switch to ranged or use your fists is silly. The developers simply wanted to put some pressure on the player, throw him out of his comfort zone by destroying his prized possessions and forcing him/her to use back up weapons, being fully aware what the players' options are: ranged, fists, random loot, cheap crafted stuff, magic. You didn't discover your own way - you used one of the ways provided by the developers (you used the crafting system, for god's sake - how did you think it got there?)

I confess, I didn't think that many people would care if options are presented to them or if you have to call the option yourself, since I thought it would be obvious what the options are. Yet, you proved me wrong by being happy as a pig that you've "made your own tale" and thinking that you used a unique way the developers didn't expect you to. Well done!

 

[suejak]

I just don't think you understand why games are fun. Which explains your game.

Have you ever played PnP?

 

[felipepepe]

I confess, I didn't think that many people would care if options are presented to them or if you have to call the option yourself, since I thought it would be obvious what the options are. Yet, you proved me wrong by being happy as a pig that you've "made your own tale" and thinking that you used a unique way the developers didn't expect you to. Well done!

Never underestimate the illusion of choice bro, people love to feel special, no matter how common that is.

 

[suejak]

felipepepe
How is it the illusion of choice when you have literally a dozen choices?

Assuming you mean "the illusion of freedom," even then I disagree. What makes these games fun is the very real freedom they allow you within their complex system and their complex, open world.