Age of Wonders 1 or 2???

[Darth Canoli]

The nomad campaign from Shadow Magic is quite tough for a beginner so i tried the elf campaign on easy (second difficulty level after beginner) and this one is simply too easy.
Well, i guess now i have some training, i'll restart the nomad one on normal mode.

- Anyone knows how to get your item once crafted ?

Crafted a helm (domain and +1 def) but no hero was there when i finished it (finished early) and it's nowhere to be found, not even on the ground, as far as i can tell.

- In this elf scenario, unlike in the nomad one, seems like my domain wasn't growing but i didn't let my wizard in the first city i took and i didn't build the domain expansion while he was in one either and it seems not to grow at all in my most advanced city even when he's there (well, she, i think it's a woman)

Anyone knows why ?

As for AoW 1 i didn't play it so i can't tell what inspired it the most (after checking, i also think i only played warlords 2 and 3)

 

[Darth Canoli]

So i restarted the nomad mission in normal mode, turns out it's extremely easy as well, you just have to make friend with the halfings by freeing their slaves and they don't send 2x 20+ men armies to wipe you out ...

 

[MilesBeyond]

Play both. They are just too different.

This is accurate, and part of the reason why I love the Age of Wonders series is because AoW 1, SM, and 3 all play very differently and have their own strengths and weaknesses, which allows me to enjoy all three depending on what I'm feeling.


In response to the OP:

Age of Wonders 1, as mentioned, has much better atmosphere. Some of the mechanics are wonky (most Protection abilities are almost totally useless, for example, and Resistance isn't super important) and heroes and dragons tend to be incredibly overpowered, but it's a lot of fun. It's much simpler than later games with cities just being places that you build soldiers at, and as much as the game is compared to Master of Magic it has much, much more in common with Warlords 3.

Age of Wonders SM (2 isn't worth playing) is more Master of Magic like. Your leader is now a wizard that mostly stays in their tower and cities now have buildings and slightly more in-depth management. They've even added a new world as a sort of Myrror equivalent. The balance has been improved a little as well - heroes and dragons (and Air Galleys) aren't as gamebreaking, and the factions are a bit more equal in power. Unfortunately, that's achieved by making the units more similar - the basic units for most factions are nearly identical. In AoW 1 and 3 the basic units are nearly identical in concept and purpose but the differences in stats and abilities can end up making a big difference. In AoW SM the 5 races the game adds (Tigrans, Draconians, Syrons, Nomads, Shadow Demons all feel different, but the 10 recurring races are extremely similar up until T3.

Here's how I'd put it:

Age of Wonders is a fantasy strategy series.

AoW 1 is a top-notch fantasy game, but maybe not an amazing strategy game.
AoW 3 is a top-notch strategy game, but maybe not an amazing fantasy game.
AoW SM is somewhere in the middle.

 

[Lagi]

this is beautiful. charming. easily readable. simple - perfect

this is blurry mess

AoW1 - for each race you have 7 distinguish units (almost, because there is copy-paste of ramp, ballista, catapult, t1 archer&swordsman - sometimes with nice twist, like turtles for lizards or elephant for azracs). instead of tech tree + building structures, You pay for installation of single higher tier units in each city, to be able to produce it => excellent, Warlords 3 like, simple.
....
ok sorry, even though there is lot to complain about, i just like AoW1 this much.

==============================

AoW 3 is a top-notch strategy game, but maybe not an amazing fantasy game.

I would rather say: AoW 3 has a top-notch tactical game (unit positioning, flanking, each attack do damage instead this Miss gambling, resistance is useful). AoW3 mechanics is polished, I would love to have AoW3 combat mechanism implemented in AoW1

plus LOOOTS of stats costs hero spells etc balancing

 

[Lagi]

..

i would give you a post rating, but i dont want to spoil your perfect parrots number

 

[Darth Canoli]

Thanks for your insights, i've read bad things about AoW3, seems like it's worth playing it.

Might try 1 and 3 when i'm done with SM.

Playing in hard mode already, it's quite easy to break the game balance, i'll probably add the improve AI mod for the next campaign.

 

[octavius]

Might try 1 and 3 when i'm done with SM.

Playing in hard mode already, it's quite easy to break the game balance, i'll probably add the improve AI mod for the next campaign.

Which mod is that?

 

[Darth Canoli]

Which mod is that?

I've just read about an improving AI mod in this thread or another one talking about SM in the Codex.
So far, i'm only playing with the 1.4 fan patch which corrects a few bugs, i don't remember what it does exactly.

After a fast research, i found : wizards & heroes v3.0

Last update in 2007, not sure it's the one though but it's said to improve the AI.
After reading the modifications, i'm not sure i like them all.

 

[octavius]

Which mod is that?

I've just read about an improving AI mod in this thread or another one talking about SM in the Codex.
So far, i'm only playing with the 1.4 fan patch which corrects a few bugs, i don't remember what it does exactly.

After a fast research, i found : wizards & heroes v3.0

Last update in 2007, not sure it's the one though but it's said to improve the AI.
After reading the modifications, i'm not sure i like them all.

Neither did I. But I liked the changes that encouraged the AI to build new cities, which were effective.
But I used it and 1.4 as a base for my own SP mod, which I think works pretty well in SP.
Unfortunately I never wrote down a change log, so I never uploaded it. One of the things I did was modifying various sites so that 1.4 units also had a chance of being present, providing more variety.
When I get around to SM again, I'll probably redo the mod using 1.5 UOP as base.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Interesting, i like everything that makes the AI more powerful/effective but i'm against everything that narrows my options.

Would you share that mod of yours, the 1.4 based one ?

Also, i've read good and bad things about 1.5, would you recommend it (i'm not sure i can apply it safely now, though, i finished one campaign already and unlocked the next)

 

[octavius]

Interesting, i like everything that makes the AI more powerful/effective but i'm against everything that narrows my options.

Would you share that mod of yours, the 1.4 based one ?

OK, I uploaded it at aow2.heavengames.com, but it hasn't turned up yet.

Also, i've read good and bad things about 1.5, would you recommend it (i'm not sure i can apply it safely now, though, i finished one campaign already and unlocked the next)

No idea. 1.5 was the Grimoire of the AoW community when I was active 8+ years ago.
But like Grimoire it was eventually released.

 

[The Brazilian Slaughter]

By the way - anyone has any idea why AOW1 is the only AOW game that allows you 12 players on-map? All the later ones stick with eight players, which seems like some useless shit convention.
I always loved those XL 12 players scenarios in AOW, so much chaos having to juggle attacks and enemies from all directions and diplomacy.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Thanks octavius
I have to admit i left it for now, it's a nice game but it gets old fast, i'll come back to it next year, probably and grab your mod in the meantime.

 

[Lagi]

By the way - anyone has any idea why AOW1 is the only AOW game that allows you 12 players on-map? All the later ones stick with eight players, which seems like some useless shit convention.
I always loved those XL 12 players scenarios in AOW, so much chaos having to juggle attacks and enemies from all directions and diplomacy.

My guess would be the delay reason. In various games, I sometimes reduce the number of AI players to shorten the wait period for my turn. Taking into account that typical "customer" want to have all max out during first contact, Devs might not want to make bad first impression with games : "omg why does it take so long".

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

1 is my favorite, but I think both SM and 3 are objectively more polished and well-designed. Unfortunately the series has seen a steady decline in the quality of music and aesthetics since its debut. 3 is by far the ugliest of the games, and I can’t recall a single track from it, despite playing it far more recently than 1 whose soundtrack I remember very fondly to this day.

 

[visions]

AoW 1's soundtrack is one of my favorite computer game soundtracks ever. Michiel van den Bos also composed songs for two other of my favorite soundtracks (Unreal and Unreal Tournament). Wikipedia says he composed the soundtrack to AoW 3 as well but I never got around to playing it, so I don't know if and how much he has declined.

 

[MilesBeyond]

AoW 1's soundtrack is one of my favorite computer game soundtracks ever. Michiel van den Bos also composed songs for two other of my favorite soundtracks (Unreal and Unreal Tournament). Wikipedia says he composed the soundtrack to AoW 3 as well but I never got around to playing it, so I don't know if and how much he has declined.

He also did the soundtrack to Deus Ex. AoW 3's soundtrack is comparable. The new tracks are decent, and some of them grow on you after a while but the reduxes of AoW 1 tracks are by far the highlights. His new compositions in the Eternal Lords DLC are ace, though.

 

[BING XI LAO]

https://af.gog.com/forum/age_of_wonders_series#1541481696?as=1649904300
Come plus PBEMs with us, guys! AoW1 and AoW2 both. I can assist with any technical difficulties, modding questions, setting up the email wrapper, etc.

Personally I would rate the games as AoW1>AoW2>AoW3 for breadth of mechanics and aesthetics, and as AoW3>AoW2>AoW1 for balance. Unfortunately I just can't stand AoW3's (or Planetfall's) graphics enough to play them, and that's really saying something since my favourite game after Age of Wonders 1&2 is dota2.

I have recently made two maps for AoW1, the Xelm Plateau ones at the relevant heavengames download section. Although they are cramped and weird, they hopefully are interesting and unusual too. And I've planned and mostly implemented a wide-ranging AoW1 balance mod too.

 

[The Brazilian Slaughter]

BING XI LAO are you going to use standard rule-set or something other, like Warlock's?
Honestly I would prefer modded AOW1 PBEM, because we can have a twelve-player melee, which is glorious to me.

Also, call your GoG dudes here, its better to have everyone together here I feel.

 

[BING XI LAO]

BING XI LAO are you going to use standard rule-set or something other, like Warlock's?
Honestly I would prefer modded AOW1 PBEM, because we can have a twelve-player melee, which is glorious to me.
Also, call your GoG dudes here, its better to have everyone together here I feel.

I'm in favour of using mods, whether it's my own, Warlock's, or whatever. One of the PBEMs I'm in is using a small mod someone else made to make Fire sphere stronger. The only problem with mods is that getting everyone to use them is like herding cats.
I know it's rude of me to post on Codex saying ''come to GoG!'', but it's GoG that has a PBEM community, not this place. Also, I imagine most Codexers have GoG accounts, but the reverse is not true. That said, turnlog is not a strict necessity, you can simply give me a game email and starting playing us without bothering to post there.
Either way, a 12-man diplomacy/free for all game would be great, especially with Codexers.... not sure how to make it happen though.

One of my recent games I lost my empire and went running around with a 50 movespeed, hasted, Free Movement-ed, 10 DEF hero razing towns, while the vast armies of my opponent couldn't catch me, and sometimes regretted trying. Eventually I died when the other player researched Town Portal and used it to teleport an Air Galley onto me, otherwise I'd have run away. Great stuff that you won't see in many - or any? other games.

 

[The Brazilian Slaughter]

I'm in favour of using mods, whether it's my own, Warlock's, or whatever. One of the PBEMs I'm in is using a small mod someone else made to make Fire sphere stronger. The only problem with mods is that getting everyone to use them is like herding cats.

Fire Sphere is weak?

What do you suggest, regarding balance? Biggest balance hang-ups in AOW I can remember are:
1. Heroes/Leaders quickly become ultra-powerful and can solo entire armies, making lvl1s and lvl2s and most lvl3s entirely useless. I mean, AOW2 and SM still have this, but there are ways of balancing that problem in there. Stack First Strike + Freezing/Lightning Strike and almost nothing can even touch you.
2. Orcs in AOW1 are pure cheese.

Either way, a 12-man diplomacy/free for all game would be great, especially with Codexers.... not sure how to make it happen though.

Well, lots of AOW fans here. If we can talk more and get stuff decided, we can make it work.

One of my recent games I lost my empire and went running around with a 50 movespeed, hasted, Free Movement-ed, 10 DEF hero razing towns, while the vast armies of my opponent couldn't catch me, and sometimes regretted trying. Eventually I died when the other player researched Town Portal and used it to teleport an Air Galley onto me, otherwise I'd have run away. Great stuff that you won't see in many - or any? other games.

Holy shit, this reminds me of one of my wildest games in the Demo! Lost my Empire in First Conflict, went running around all over the game map in a world dominated by hordes of Orcs and Goblins, fighting and killing them, razing and pillaging towns, sometimes recruiting one or two units I barely kept in line (because I was good and they were evil), getting hit by random altar attacks... I lost when the AI caught up with me with huge stacks full of warlords and ballistas after going through fuckloads of common soldiers. Fucking epic!

AOW1 really makes the "Reaver and Pillage" gamestyle pretty fun, I remember enjoying a lot getting some decent territory, then going "Pillage and Plunder" on the rest of the map until the enemy starts losing units.

He was smart in using Air Galleys - those things are hero-killers;

 

[Alfgart]

AoW 1's soundtrack is one of my favorite computer game soundtracks ever. Michiel van den Bos also composed songs for two other of my favorite soundtracks (Unreal and Unreal Tournament). Wikipedia says he composed the soundtrack to AoW 3 as well but I never got around to playing it, so I don't know if and how much he has declined.

Same here. AoW1 soundtrack is brilliant and it goes perfectly with the art direction of the game. Funny thing is, the best track IMO "In the Company of Elves" only appeared in the demo and not in the full game

 

[BING XI LAO]

I'm in favour of using mods, whether it's my own, Warlock's, or whatever. One of the PBEMs I'm in is using a small mod someone else made to make Fire sphere stronger. The only problem with mods is that getting everyone to use them is like herding cats.

Fire Sphere is weak?

What do you suggest, regarding balance? Biggest balance hang-ups in AOW I can remember are:
1. Heroes/Leaders quickly become ultra-powerful and can solo entire armies, making lvl1s and lvl2s and most lvl3s entirely useless. I mean, AOW2 and SM still have this, but there are ways of balancing that problem in there. Stack First Strike + Freezing/Lightning Strike and almost nothing can even touch you.
2. Orcs in AOW1 are pure cheese.

It wasn't me who made a mod mainly to buff fire, I haven't thought too much about sphere vs. sphere balance. But I can say that Fire's problem is not only that its spells are overpriced for what they do, but also that when superheroes are a big part of the game, those superheroes have massive synergy with Healing Water and Liquid Form, while the fire spells are comparatively useless. Why fireball people when you're a melee beast? Fire and Water are mutually incompatible due to being opposed spheres, so you want Water.

As for balance, heroes do need to be toned a bit. I love how strong they are in this game but like you say, it's at the point where the normal units are too overshadowed. Warlock's mod makes it cost a bit more in levelup points to increase DEF, and only lets you increase it 5 times at levelup, which is a sufficient nerf imo.

The big problems in PBEM balance are
1.) Archers and swordsmen. Archers are favoured by the autocombat mechanics, making them totally outshine swordsmen, even the orc swordsmen. They're also consistently useful against even the strongest enemies, because swordsmen get splatted on retaliations. Meanwhile 8 archers fighting a superhero and dying at a rate of 1 per round will get a lot of arrows off. Archers are overpowered and swordsmen are underpowered.

2.) Elephants. They're battering rams that move 50% faster, and they fight almost as well as tier2 cavalry. They're simultaneously the most strategically useful tier1 troop (in terms of letting you menace enemy fortified structures more promptly with Wall Crushing), but also the strongest troop in open battle. Having an azrac hamlet to make elephants in changes the way your armies move. They would still be highly valuable at twice the upfront cost and if they required installation.

3.) useless units, or units which are totally overshadowed by another choice at the same race AND tier. There's a lot of units which have the feeble stats of a niche unit.... but without the special abilities to give them a niche! That's easily solved by a modder; just give them some special abilities.

Also, I read a bunch of Elric of Melnibone books a few months back. Not only is the Dark Elf executioner a clear reference, the cosmology and plot is reminiscent of Stormbringer's events.

 

[The Brazilian Slaughter]

It wasn't me who made a mod mainly to buff fire, I haven't thought too much about sphere vs. sphere balance. But I can say that Fire's problem is not only that its spells are overpriced for what they do, but also that when superheroes are a big part of the game, those superheroes have massive synergy with Healing Water and Liquid Form, while the fire spells are comparatively useless. Why fireball people when you're a melee beast? Fire and Water are mutually incompatible due to being opposed spheres, so you want Water.

Oh, that makes sense.
My usual spheres are Earth/Water/Life or Death. I like Earth the most because I can use it to give Gold Rushes to all my cities and double my income with mana that just sits uselessely otherwise.

As for balance, heroes do need to be toned a bit. I love how strong they are in this game but like you say, it's at the point where the normal units are too overshadowed. Warlock's mod makes it cost a bit more in levelup points to increase DEF, and only lets you increase it 5 times at levelup, which is a sufficient nerf imo.

Warlock mod nerfs them? Interesting...

1.) Archers and swordsmen.

Yeah, sometimes when the AI tried to attack my cities, I did auto-combat because it seemed way better for archers - they can just pelt the enemy's rams with arrows, and then they will murder the enemy army. Sometimes it seems that tactical was better, as rams didn't always two-shot a wall.

2.) Elephants.

Man, elephants are fucking ridiculous. I think Azracs have the best lvl1 choices.

3.) useless units, or units which are totally overshadowed by another choice at the same race AND tier.

True that, shit like (Dark) Elf Swordsmen, Halfling Swordsmen, Human Swordsmen... who the fuck uses that drek?

Also, I read a bunch of Elric of Melnibone books a few months back. Not only is the Dark Elf executioner a clear reference, the cosmology and plot is reminiscent of Stormbringer's events.

I need to read the Elric books, I hear about them A LOT.

 

[MilesBeyond]

Fire Sphere is weak?

What do you suggest, regarding balance? Biggest balance hang-ups in AOW I can remember are:
1. Heroes/Leaders quickly become ultra-powerful and can solo entire armies, making lvl1s and lvl2s and most lvl3s entirely useless. I mean, AOW2 and SM still have this, but there are ways of balancing that problem in there. Stack First Strike + Freezing/Lightning Strike and almost nothing can even touch you.
2. Orcs in AOW1 are pure cheese.

Fire Sphere is really weak, yeah. Funnily enough, it suffers from the same problems as Fire Magic in HoMM 3 - it is, ostensibly, the offensive magic school, but has some of the weakest offensive spells. Flaming Arrow, Call Flames, Fire Breath, and Swarm are all really underwhelming and Fireball is only so-so. The only thing Fire has going for it damage-wise is Sacrificial Flame cast by a hero with Fire Halo. Fury is a pretty wimpy unit enchant, Fire Barrier is extremely niche, IIRC Anarchy doesn't even work (or at least not on higher levels), Fire Elemental is an unimpressive summoning, and what's even the point of Fire Mastery? So what does Fire have going for it? Fire Sprite is a pretty good early summon, Fire Halo can be a useful enchant, Cloud of Ashes has its place, Warmonger is a neat late-game enchant, and Fire Storm is what it is.

Adding insult to injury, Fire's opposite, Water, is way better at direct damage spells despite the fact that these aren't even Water's focus. Ice Shards is way better than Flaming Arrow or Call Flames, Geyser and Frost Beam are both way better than Fire Breath or Swarm, Great Hail is substantially better than Fireball and can be better than Sacrificial Flame depending on the situation. Fire just does not stack up to Water, and that's not even taking into account spells like Healing Water, Liquid Form, or Flood. The humble Healing Water is one of the most useful spells in the game. Did they finally manage to wear your uber hero down to only a couple hit points? Haha whoops, they're back at full health!

I liked AoW 1's concept of opposing spheres, but in practice it didn't work out that well. Life vs Death was mostly a matter of which race you chose, Water vs Fire had a single clearly better option. The only really difficult choice was Air vs Earth.

Also, as for your 1st point, funnily enough in AoW 1 lvl 1 units are, in theory, the strongest units to use against uberheroes. The way AoW 1's mechanics work, there's always a 10% chance of a hit and a 10% chance of a miss. When a hero is pimped out with max defense, you want to start getting in as many attacks as possible. In practice that doesn't actually work out though just because of AoW 1's upkeep mechanics: mass-producing hordes of T1 units will bankrupt you very, very quickly (for reference: For the production cost of one Red Dragon, you could get roughly 14 Orc Swordsmen. However, those Orc Swordsmen would cost you 56 gold per turn. The Dragon? 10).

I maintain that unit upkeep weirdness is one of the main causes of T4 spam in AoW 1 and SM. Especially annoying because IIRC upkeep costs are hardcoded.