AI on BG Games Question (Bonus: Poll Included)

[Cael]

So what tactics did you use? Cheese like waiting out his buffs while invisible, Arrow of Slaying, creating a maxed out Kensai, or something clever?
Let's see...

Your search - "Kahrk" site:lilura1.blogspot.com - did not match any documents.

The ogre mage at Firewine Bridge? He's pretty easy so long as you remember that he has several defensive spells on when he appears (globe of invulnerability and mirror image being the two most painful ones, I can't remember if he has stoneskin) and loves his lightning bolts.

 

[octavius]

Pretty easy, when he does 25 damage per attack, has 6 APR, very low AC and can't be hit by spells lower than lvl 4?
If you go toe to toe with him he rips the whole party apart in a matter of seconds.
Pray tell how you deal with him without using some tedious cheese? I guess you could have him chase one character and the rest peppering him with Darts of Stunning, but for a low level party you need to roll a 20 just to hit him with darts.
Having Coran or Kivak shoot an Arrow of Slaying at him seems to be the safest and least cheesy way of dealing with him.

I guess he's not that difficult after you have completed the rest of the game, but he's nigh impossible if facing him when you would normally explore the Firewine areas.

 

[Cael]

Pretty easy, when he does 25 damage per attack, has 6 APR, very low AC and can't be hit by spells lower than lvl 4?
If you go toe to toe with him he rips the whole party apart in a matter of seconds.
Pray tell how you deel with him without using some tedious cheese? I guess you could have him chase on character and the rest peppering him with Dart of Stunning but for a low level party you need to roll a 20 just to hit him with darts.
Having Coran or Kivak shoot an Arrow of Slaying at him seems to be the safest and least cheesy way of dealing with him.

I guess he's not that difficult after you have completed the rest of the game, but he's nigh impossible if facing him when you would normally explore the Firewine areas.

He generally doesn't attack until he has run out of spells, and his 6APR is because he is hasted. My party level tends to be around 5 when it happens (I do all of the western side first before moving to the south-eastern side and moving north from there; the bandit camp is generally one of the last areas I visit before zooming for Cloakwood and the city).

Now, from memory (this has been a while, mind you):

If you have my typical party (Dynaheir, Jaheira, Imoen, Branwen, Minsc, the PC being a Fighter), you haste Imoen (pot) and have her activate the guy. Make sure she has the Boots of Grounding. Get her to run away and disengage as soon as possible. The rest of you pelt him with Dispel Magic. Your target is the Mirror Image. Then arrow/sling him to disrupt his casting, and throw Minsc at him fully berserked. If Minsc goes down, the PC steps up to tie him down. Remember to bring Imoen back for more arrows once Khark has switched targets.

Once his protections runs out, he is an even easier target, so delaying him is a very valid tactic.

Khark is strong, but so long as you tie down his actions by disrupting his casting and get rid of that Mirror Image, you should be OK if you have a strong fighter on your side and not too bothered with a Raise Dead/Ressurection if required.

 

[Tigranes]

Cael nothing to do with dickwaving, more about how exchanging opinions would go easier if we didn't have to talk at "the nature of the medium" level of abstraction. Anyway, yes, SCS could always have done with a little more degree of randomness, but to be fair it also seems to at least widen the spell selection for enemies.

The interesting question is, how do you beat Khark without any kiting or other cheesing if you go to Firewine right after Nashkel (so, around level 4). He's not particularly difficult if you kite him while you can take his protections down or wait them out, but I haven't really found berserked Minsc or anyone else to last toe to toe very long. I think it does go more smoothly if you can make sure you can hit him very reliably with projectiles (special arrows are really helpful), but his AC is very low to begin with and a low level / less optimised character just won't cut it.

 

[hell bovine]

Soon to finish my long, side-play of Baldur's Gate (mentioned already I play it sowly, non-exclusively, on early mornings with coffee and in cold nights) which I started last November. Core difficulty.

Will go through SOD content and then sweet BG2. In the meantime I read a lot about SCS improvements to AI.

If you want as close to vanilla game as possible, but with less stupidity, I'd recommend only the basic SCS components:
- core component
- initialise AI
- smarter general AI
- better calls for help
It's basically the same enemies, but not as dumb as they are in the original game. Leave out the optional creature improvements and challenges, as they introduce many changes to original content.

Considering that SoD improves (though nowhere near SCS level) on the original game enemy AI, the transition from SoD to BG2-SCS might actually be smoother than to unmodded BG2.

 

[Cael]

Cael nothing to do with dickwaving, more about how exchanging opinions would go easier if we didn't have to talk at "the nature of the medium" level of abstraction.

It is your opinion that it is abstraction. It is not mine. To me it is pure hard fact and a valid discussion point. In fact, it is the major difference between a good tabletop DM and a CRPG: One can adapt and basically present a world that has no limits other than what your characters can achieve due to stats, skills and abilities, whereas a CRPG always has limits in what you can or cannot do.

SCS and other AI optimising mods railroads people into only doing a set number of actions in order to survive. That is just stupid. It reminds me of the original Civ, where you city/settler spam in order to just have a chance at surviving in Emperor mode. You don't have any other choice because the game doesn't give you any other choice. You can never take a third option with computer games unless it is explicitly programmed into the game.

That you call it an abstraction calls into question your understanding of how computer games work and/or your understanding of the word "abstraction".

 

[Tigranes]

Sigh. You just keep going off on your spiel. You're not even wrong, I agree that it's the basic difference between tabletop and CRPG. But you're right, since I don't find your framing particularly valuable, the onus is on me to stop talking to you about it.

Anyway, back to SCS, primarily it's the decision to put certain stock protection buffs on mages - e.g. globe - as a contingency (depending on your settings) that is the source of a routine buff/debuff procedure. But I think it's also problematic not to have it, because in vanilla alpha strikes - from traps to backstabs to fireballs to whatnot - castrate enemy parties wholesale from the get go, and therefore the enemies ability to disrupt the player's routine and introduce interesting situations (even in the confines of a crpg etc etc etc) becomes minimised.

A real next step solution would have to change something about the "enemies hang around in the room and you can sneak up to them and plan your alpha strikes" part of the whole design, and other parts of the woodwork that are harder to adjust.

 

[Cael]

Sigh. You just keep going off on your spiel. You're not even wrong, I agree that it's the basic difference between tabletop and CRPG. But you're right, since I don't find your framing particularly valuable, the onus is on me to stop talking to you about it.

Anyway, back to SCS, primarily it's the decision to put certain stock protection buffs on mages - e.g. globe - as a contingency (depending on your settings) that is the source of a routine buff/debuff procedure. But I think it's also problematic not to have it, because in vanilla alpha strikes - from traps to backstabs to fireballs to whatnot - castrate enemy parties wholesale from the get go, and therefore the enemies ability to disrupt the player's routine and introduce interesting situations (even in the confines of a crpg etc etc etc) becomes minimised.

A real next step solution would have to change something about the "enemies hang around in the room and you can sneak up to them and plan your alpha strikes" part of the whole design, and other parts of the woodwork that are harder to adjust.

And so do you. What's your' point? Oh, I know. Let's buff up the mages to the maximally ALLOWED BY THE GAME and have them throw out the most overpowered spells ALLOWED BY THE GAME and call it "good AI". And no, that is not monotonous at all! It uses GOOD spells instead of crap ones! How can that be monotonous!

Two can play at that game, "pal".

 

[Gragt]

Going back to Kahrk: I found that using a scroll of Protection from Magic works like a charm on the bloody bugger.

 

[Cael]

Going back to Kahrk: I found that using a scroll of Protection from Magic works like a charm on the bloody bugger.

You should really hoard those scrolls. There are a few monsters that you really want to use them for, and I think there are only 3 of them in the game.

EDIT: Damn you all. Now I have this urge to start another run through of BG...

 

[Tigranes]

You seem very worked up, dear fellow, why don't you take a deep breath?

I'd also consider a Prot. Mag on Kahrk a bit of a waste. Of course, the number of times I ended up hoarding them in the scroll case and forgetting their existence..

 

[Cael]

You seem very worked up, dear fellow, why don't you take a deep breath?

You are right. And to help facilitate that, I'll put you in the Quiet Box so I don't have to hear your trolling.

 

[Lilura]

You are right. And to help facilitate that, I'll put you in the Quiet Box so I don't have to hear your trolling.

What a fucking crybaby this cunt is.

 

[octavius]

What a fucking crybaby this cunt is.

 

[Incantatar]

WTF are you talking about? SCS has random mage specs and random spell repertoire for most non named mages. An invoker is different to an conjurer.
Then there are randomized potions.
You will have to use different tactics on every play through. Combine it with an item randomizer and you will have to adapt even more. If you look into the iron man threads, there are people replaying the game for >10 years with different approaches.

 

[Gragt]

Going back to Kahrk: I found that using a scroll of Protection from Magic works like a charm on the bloody bugger.

You should really hoard those scrolls. There are a few monsters that you really want to use them for, and I think there are only 3 of them in the game.

EDIT: Damn you all. Now I have this urge to start another run through of BG...

I always found the bloody bastard more annoying than he ought to be with SCS so I don’t mind using a scroll on him. Other encounters can be made easier with it but I haven’t really felt the urge to use the scrolls at that point. I tend to hoard things and never use them anyway, so I might as well spare myself the trouble.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Pre-buffed mage encounters at lower levels?

... Dispel Magic...

Duh...

 

[hell bovine]

Maybe if you have an inquisitor in the party, otherwise chances for dispelling can be so-so. E.g. Silke (she of the lightning bolt) is a level 10 bard.

 

[octavius]

I think she was toned down in recent versions of SCS.

 

[Tigranes]

Silke used to be a blockbuster fight in SCS, again if you went for her early; in vanilla she's an easy way to pick up some XP and loot (Quarterstaff +1, I think?), but it's a good example of how when you can't just backstab her, or magic missile stunlock her spellcasting, even a lone spellcasting enemy can be devastating because you have to assume she'll get hold person or something off at least once, depending on your party.

I remember going solo at one point and having to use the invisibility pots (I think you find some in the manor in town) to fizzle some of her spells.

 

[Lacrymas]

Couldn't you prevent yourself from getting 1-shot by her lightning bolt if you had the lowest possible HP at level 1 or something?

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

scs mages in BG1 are extremely annoyink to the point I got used to always perform a poison dagger invisibility thief backstab alpha strike to lessen the pain.

 

[aweigh]

download IEmod

 

[SCO]

You should as a non-autistic person probably use SCS but the nerfed version. Some of the improvements make the gameplay a bit more surprising without being overwhelming. Exercise judgment and be careful of caster tweaks because they can ruin whole modes of gameplay or make imbalances even more powerful. For example, you know how casters get a +1 to magic resist per level or so per level difference? If you install the unlimited table for that, and play a caster multiclass, you'll be grossly underdeveloped while opponents grow without limit and many standbys are entirely ineffective (dispel for example). This is especially painful because many SCS casters have contingencies or prebuffing.

Shadow thieves using potions of invisibility to backstab chain you are also annoying but i suppose that has a obvious counter.

Tactics can fuck off.

 

[octavius]

scs mages in BG1 are extremely annoyink to the point I got used to always perform a poison dagger invisibility thief backstab alpha strike to lessen the pain.

Wouldn't it be easier to not install the Smarte Mages component?