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An RPG without leveling

LCJr.

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SkeleTony said:
You are mis-reading me here guy. I am well aware of GDW & Traveller and was a fan of those games myself(though I enjoyed RuneQuest much more ;)). Traveller, in all of it's various editions, was a RPG, not an "adventure game". I think you are getting to caught up in irrelevant details like "leveling"(meaning having specific character "levels" reached at what amounts to predefined numbers of "kills" in many RPGs).
In short, "leveling" is not by any means a necessary component of RPGs but quantified/stat-based progression IS and therefore Traveller is a RPG because it featured this element.

D&D was a terrible game system as I have repeatedly stated before. Please do not assume I am some derfender of "D&D's way". I am well aware of probably every single one of thsoe "alternatives" in P&P gaming(I would wager my house that I remember games that you never heard of). I started playing them shortly after D&D came out and I owned/played hundreds of different RPGs from Tunnels & Trolls to Daredevils(FGU game about pulp era heroes).

Seems to me that you're contradicting yourself. What's the difference between a predeveloped and basically static character from Traveller(or about any GDW rpg) and having a computer game with the same type of predeveloped and static character? Why label the computer game an adventure and the PnP game a rpg?

Now you are sounding like a Bryce alt. As someone's sig goes "I am to old for this shit." myself. I remember FGU's Daredevils, Aftermath(?) and they had a superhero game Villians&Vigalantes(?) just never messed with them myself. Didn't they also keep Chivalry & Sorcery alive?
 
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SkeleTony said:
Skippy, RPGS ARE tactical simulation games or a specific type of said genre. They are a sub-genre of war/strategy games. Instead of a player controlling and making decisions about how to use the cavalry or archers in whatever scenario(in war games where one generally handles large armies composed of many smaller squads), the player in RPGs is dealing with a single squad which can be from one character(composed of several "smaller" attributes) or a handful of characters.
SkeleTony said:
But even a game with NO COMBAT, where "good" and "evil" are meaningless terms(or at least only subjective evaluations of behavior) and most 'conflict' takes toe form of political debate or some such, is STILL a role-playing game IF the game mechanics involve developing characters by quantified attributes, becoming more proficient with experience.
I'm confused. If a genre (RPG) is a sub-genre of war/strategy games, doesn't that imply, rather strongly, that combat is a requisite? When I play a war game, I'm kind of expecting some type of combat.

Anyway, I always thought of levelling as a quick and easy measure of a character's abilities. For instance, we all know a level 10 character is going to be more powerful than a level 1 character. How much more powerful is dependent on the system. Levels generally give an indication of the task difficulty a character can handle (usually in the form of combat, but its certainly possible in other places as well). Trying to gauge the 'power' of a level-less character, who has 30 skills of various levels, isn' quite as cut and dry. Its also much more difficult to design around.

That's not to say I wouldn't like to see a good level-less system. Perhaps the bulk of a character's abilities would be determined at character generation. For instance, adventuring could kind of interrupt their lives at some point. The types and levels of skills the character has would be whatever they had managed to gain up until that event. The player could decide to have a relatively young, inexperienced hero, or play as someone who is much older, but with a broader range of skills. Of course, age would be a factor, and as the character aged, their physical attributes would start declining. Once they start adventuring, the character would still evolve, but much slower, as the time they adventure, relative to their 'normal' life, is probably much shorter. However, they are also usually under much greater pressure to learn quickly, so some growth would still occur.
 

Kraszu

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Flux_Capacitor said:
Anyway, I always thought of levelling as a quick and easy measure of a character's abilities. For instance, we all know a level 10 character is going to be more powerful than a level 1 character. How much more powerful is dependent on the system. Levels generally give an indication of the task difficulty a character can handle (usually in the form of combat, but its certainly possible in other places as well). Trying to gauge the 'power' of a level-less character, who has 30 skills of various levels, isn' quite as cut and dry. Its also much more difficult to design around.

Not true just measure haw many lp he gather nothing harder in that. Also you can got quest based on reputation stat.

Flux_Capacitor said:
That's not to say I wouldn't like to see a good level-less system. Perhaps the bulk of a character's abilities would be determined at character generation. For instance, adventuring could kind of interrupt their lives at some point. The types and levels of skills the character has would be whatever they had managed to gain up until that event. The player could decide to have a relatively young, inexperienced hero, or play as someone who is much older, but with a broader range of skills. Of course, age would be a factor, and as the character aged, their physical attributes would start declining. Once they start adventuring, the character would still evolve, but much slower, as the time they adventure, relative to their 'normal' life, is probably much shorter. However, they are also usually under much greater pressure to learn quickly, so some growth would still occur.

In reactive world you would not have to get aged, it just that world around you also progress so if finish mq faster the enemies would be easier, and if later harder. Like in sr where whit time world became harder if you did good you obviously become stronger then world around you, if you did bad the world around you can got to tough for you.
 
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Kraszu said:
SkeleTony said:
Who are you and why do you think I care about your "system"?? You think you are going to find flaws in MY arguments and you make the above error(presuming that I read anything you wrote anywhere and was responding to such)?

Do try.

Why then you are position in forum moron. Who am? Poster that support what he say, who are you? Idiot that don't even read post in threat that he respond to. Reading is teh hard fuck off from codex or read before you post.
I don't understand half of what you write, but when I do, you're usually spot on. :)
 

SkeleTony

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Will get back to you a bit later Dementia. Gotta run right now but you most certainly DID call me stupid which is what prompted my response and you repeat the error again above(note that calling someone "stupid" directly and saying "So-and-so called you stupid and since you said *this* I am inclined to agree/am not going to disagree/etc" is the same thing.

But will be back to grade your latest tirade later kiddo. ;)
 
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SkeleTony said:
Will get back to you a bit later Dementia. Gotta run right now but you most certainly DID call me stupid which is what prompted my response and you repeat the error again above(note that calling someone "stupid" directly and saying "So-and-so called you stupid and since you said *this* I am inclined to agree/am not going to disagree/etc" is the same thing.
Ah, but you are wrong agein. This is what I wrote:

Dementia Praecox said:
SkeleTony said:
I do not know who Bryce is but are you saying that I am one of his alts?!
He is saying you are stupid. You just claimed that RPGs are a sub-genre of war/strategy games, so I'm not about proving him wrong.
The worst you can derive form this is me thinking the claim "RPGs are a sub-genre of war/strategy games" is stupid, which I did (bear in mind that I thought you were talking about CPRGs, which you were not). It was however a flame bait, and you ate it hook line and sinker.

Dementia Praecox said:
But will be back to grade your latest tirade later kiddo. ;)
Looking forward to it, gramps.
 

galsiah

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Dementia Praecox: well said. (on your long post that is)

SkeleTony: If we're not talking about the usual notion of RPGs, we're also not talking about the usual notion of adventure games. A TES game done properly without the stats is not what anyone thinks of when you say "adventure game".
A discrete notion of genre is an artificial classification aid - not a motivation for design. Design should be flexible, and willing to use (/lose) any idea that works well (/badly) in the context of the game in question.

Flux_Capacitor said:
Anyway, I always thought of levelling as a quick and easy measure of a character's abilities.
Sure, but it's a bad measure of almost any quality. If you want to measure combat power, do that. If you want to measure diplomatic / stealth prowess, do that. If you want to measure wealth, do that....

Using level unthinkingly as an internal balancing measure is stupid. In almost every case you're using it as an approximation of some other quality - so measure that directly instead. There's an entire CPU waiting to calculate whatever complex, carefully crafted measure you give it. Using a blunt tool in this context is lazy.

Levels generally give an indication of the task difficulty a character can handle (usually in the form of combat, but its certainly possible in other places as well).
Sure - a bad approximation.

Trying to gauge the 'power' of a level-less character, who has 30 skills of various levels, isn' quite as cut and dry.
That's because the situation isn't cut and dry. If the situation is complex (which it usually is), and the measure is very simple/general, the measure is usually very poor. If the player wants a quick rating of his combat (or any other) ability, give him that - not one number for all situations.

Better yet, don't design a system where power can simply be rated as one number and compared. The purpose of having a load of skills/stats is so that they influence play in a variety of different ways. In a good system, it shouldn't be possible to say: character X is a 5, and character Y is a 10, so character Y will win. Rather, it should depend on the individual skills/stats/equipment... of each character.

Level is a crap measure of a good system, or a good measure of a crap system.

Its also much more difficult to design around.
As it bloody well should be. It'd be much simpler if every character of a given level were identical - that'd make things really easy to design around. It'd also make them dull as hell.

If a large system is very easy to design and balance, it's either exceptionally elegant, or shit. Generally speaking, the smart money's on shit.
 
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Kraszu said:
Flux_Capacitor said:
Anyway, I always thought of levelling as a quick and easy measure of a character's abilities. For instance, we all know a level 10 character is going to be more powerful than a level 1 character. How much more powerful is dependent on the system. Levels generally give an indication of the task difficulty a character can handle (usually in the form of combat, but its certainly possible in other places as well). Trying to gauge the 'power' of a level-less character, who has 30 skills of various levels, isn' quite as cut and dry. Its also much more difficult to design around.

Not true just measure haw many lp he gather nothing harder in that. Also you can got quest based on reputation stat.

Not really. If a character has 30 skills, and they've placed one point in each skill, they will probably be quite a bit weaker than someone who has placed 15 points in two skills. So, based on your scale, the two are equivalent in ability. You may say, 'Only an idiot would do that', but the option is completely available. With levels, your character is usually able to perform distinctly better as it increases.

As for a reputation stat, it really depends on how you accumulate reputation, but wouldn't that just be another would for 'level'.

Kraszu said:
Flux_Capacitor said:
That's not to say I wouldn't like to see a good level-less system. Perhaps the bulk of a character's abilities would be determined at character generation. For instance, adventuring could kind of interrupt their lives at some point. The types and levels of skills the character has would be whatever they had managed to gain up until that event. The player could decide to have a relatively young, inexperienced hero, or play as someone who is much older, but with a broader range of skills. Of course, age would be a factor, and as the character aged, their physical attributes would start declining. Once they start adventuring, the character would still evolve, but much slower, as the time they adventure, relative to their 'normal' life, is probably much shorter. However, they are also usually under much greater pressure to learn quickly, so some growth would still occur.

In reactive world you would not have to get aged, it just that world around you also progress so if finish mq faster the enemies would be easier, and if later harder. Like in sr where whit time world became harder if you did good you obviously become stronger then world around you, if you did bad the world around you can got to tough for you.
I think you misunderstood me here. I didn't really say anything about aging once you had entered the game, although I don't see why you couldn't. I was speaking mostly to character generation. For instance, in a modern RPG, say we had our character go to college for 4 years, join the police department for 8 years, and then become a programmer for 2 years. At this point, our character has been generated, and is going to be set loose on the world. In story terms, some event has occurred that caused the character to enter the adventuring profession. So, based on his background, he would have some skill levels from whatever courses he took in college, good handgun and investigation skills, and some programming ability.

However, your character could still age once the player had entered the game. There's nothing saying that the game couldn't be more episodic, perhaps with some overarching story tying some episodes together. Say our character goes adventuring for a couple days. Once done, they may spend 6 months in their 'normal' life, trying to pick up clues and information for another adventure, which they will then pursue. The adventuring portion really doesn't age them much, but the in between times certainly can.
 

Kraszu

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Flux_Capacitor said:
Not really. If a character has 30 skills, and they've placed one point in each skill, they will probably be quite a bit weaker than someone who has placed 15 points in two skills. So, based on your scale, the two are equivalent in ability. You may say, 'Only an idiot would do that', but the option is completely available. With levels, your character is usually able to perform distinctly better as it increases.

Level doesn't solve it either you can butch leveled character also. Also as pointed better then leveling would be system that judges your stats, for example somebody want quest where you kill somebody and want it to look like natural death, he check your stealth skills/open lock skills/skill that let you to kill in the way described (could be cheap 1-0 skill you have it or not).

Flux_Capacitor said:
As for a reputation stat, it really depends on how you accumulate reputation, but wouldn't that just be another would for 'level'.

Not if done in more advanced manner not only he would give you quest if you are good enough but also if he thinks that you would not sell his information/other reasons to not give quest untrusted person.

Flux_Capacitor said:
However, your character could still age once the player had entered the game. There's nothing saying that the game couldn't be more episodic, perhaps with some overarching story tying some episodes together. Say our character goes adventuring for a couple days. Once done, they may spend 6 months in their 'normal' life, trying to pick up clues and information for another adventure, which they will then pursue. The adventuring portion really doesn't age them much, but the in between times certainly can.

So it purpose would be only to make advanced system more logic? I think that it would be not worth trouble then imo, games don't have to be 100% realistic that is not the most important thing for me I never cared much that advanced system doesn't make sense (because of haw fast you learn). I was only concerned if world make sense becouse if not it brakes settings for me.
 

Veracity

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The_Pope said:
what could be nerdier than sitting in a circle masturbating to a spreadsheet?
Sitting in a circle masturbating to a spreadsheet while wearing a fur suit, obviously. True, though - the embarrassingly blatant empowerment fantasies peddled in most CRPG progression systems contribute a lot to the often pretty justifiable perception that they're incapable of addressing any but the most tediously adolescent concerns. The elf boobies don't help with that, either, admittedly.

Jagged Alliance 2 handles level in a fairly unusual manner, and is the only game I can remember playing that I thought had it 'right', or at least not annoyingly silly. Level in there is just a derived stat not especially more or less character-defining than any other. The game has pretty much the usual skills-improve-with-use problems elsewhere (explosives...ugh), but its version of level is one I can swallow fairly happily.

@SkeleTony: If you're saying that character progression is necessary (for an RPG, I think, not for a worthwhile game in general?), how does that follow from your claim that RPGs are squad level tactical simulations? I guess JA2 is more or less a quintessential RPG by your standards, and I don't see how it'd have much impact on the way that played if characters' skills didn't improve at all. The fact characters have different skill levels and specializations matters, but most of them won't improve a great deal at much other than ranged accuracy unless you're going out of your way to see that they do, an undertaking you might find amusing for its own sake (Flo leading on kill-count for the win), but certainly not necessary, or even enormously beneficial, if you just want to get to the credits.

I'd be near the head of the queue for a zero-progression RPG-like, regardless of whether it's marketed as an RPG without stat growth or adventure game with RPG character elements. I think this is mainly just an (over?)reaction to most existing games' soul-crushing reliance on lab-rat addiction mechanics, though. Realistically, I'd probably be equally satisfied with a system that simply kept character progression within more plausible bounds.

DnD and rule sets that borrow heavily from it are the biggest offenders, here. If anyone can link to this old discussion of HP where it was universally agreed to be an acceptable abstraction (or just remember roughly when it happened so I can narrow a search), I'd be interested to read it. I'm aware of at least the gist of that argument, but have never been convinced by it, especially given that most of the things HP allegedly 'abstracts' have their own separate stat checks.
 

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So the question are, is an RPG without leveling still an RPG, and is it viable?

First, everybody is arguing depending on the way they define RPGs. There is two way to go about this: how they should be, or how they have been portayed until now in games. I'm a partisan of the former way, and here's my take on it, with which you most likely will not agree.

Roleplaying revolves around a character. There is no denying that. The actual rolepaying resides in defining AND/OR developing this character. It is achieved through choices and consequences. Let me illustrate:

rpgdefinitionfvi5.jpg


Really, it's that simple.
Why is it a valid definition? It's all about the reason we roleplay. Roleplaying is all about experiencing roles/situations you can't/don't do in real life. If you are not doing this, then you are not roleplaying. Anything else you would be doing is another gameplay mechanic, such as combat, mini-games, puzzles, etc., which can be combined with roleplaying.

Character development is usually presented in games by experience points, and sometimes levels. But that is not necessary. Any aspect of a character is worthy of development, be it fighting skills, thieving skills, social skills, social relations, personnality, influence, social standing, knowledge, etc. In no way does this force a gameplay mechanic, ie leveling, as a mandatory way to roleplay. The reason why common leveling is associated to roleplay is that most RPGs revolve around combat. Obviously, the gameplay mechanics are going to follow.

The point here is that, if you are going to remove the leveling system, most likely the gameplay will change (if designed well). If it still revolves around combat, you got yourself something similar to a FPS combat gameplay, and/or a combo melee combat gameplay. Otherwise, you'll have something that takes in account the evolution of the character's aspect(s) the game revolves around.

Plus, a leveling system often means that the only development you have in the game is in the numbers from the character sheet. That even happens in the RPGs we usually find best (Fallout, PS:Torment, etc...). Leveling up in skills is sometimes useless (ex: Doctor in Fallout, or Gamble), and therefore you don't have real character development because in game, there's nearly no effect. Development requires consequence.

You could argue that it's a flaw in the design, but I think it's the system that's not the right one for the use. There is others ways to show character development, in game, that are more appropriate to certains aspects of character development such as personnality, social standing and influence. They don't need a leveling system.

More than that, a leveling system often forces the artificial situation where you are a puny weakling at the start of the game, and end up as a god at the end. Sure, it works in a combat game, but in a game trying to explore character, it's pretty dumb. The leveling system also forces the massive grinding and repetitive actions as a mean to give the character experience so he can "grow". All of it is tedious gameplay mechanics that serves as content filler for designers. Why would fed-ex quests exist if there wasn't xp to gain at the end? Anyways, enough of this, Vogel rants about it better than I do.


Now, about why I said roleplaying is defining AND/OR developing a character. Unlike in real life, characters have backgrounds that we do not know of, or haven't thought about in their entirety. Therefore, sometimes playing a role is defining it by the choices you make. It's viable to have a roleplaying game with little to no character development, as the game will instead revolve around the exploration of a certain type of character and his reactions in the given situation(s). Here, a leveling system would be nonsensical.


So, yeah, all this to say that without a leveling system, we might be giving more place for roleplaying in a game. Cut the crap and tedious mechanics to go right to the roleplaying. It's harder to do well, and less people will like it because it's more involving (read: less mindless). But that is the kind of game I want to play.

Let's face it, combat has always been the week point of cRPGs. Any other genre does it better. In roleplaying games, you will always be faced with the absurdity of the amount of things you kill, because you're trying to play a character. Other genres don't have this limitation, as the gameplay doesn't need to take account of the consequences. But an RPG without consequences? Ridiculous. This was Fallout's flaw. You could just come to a town and wipe it clean. Unkillable NPCs? A direct consequence of replacing social structure and logic with a leveling system.
 

Claw

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I'm saving that for future reference.

If I may propose an improvement, I'd split the lower box between choices and consequences, to emphasize that choices define your character while consequences trigger development.


I'm not sure what you mean by "Fallout's flaw" though.
 

JarlFrank

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That sketch pretty much gives a clear basic definition of roleplaying, which is developing your character not necessarily by stats, but by choices which may define his personality and morality.
 

galsiah

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Claw said:
I'd split the lower box between choices and consequences
I wouldn't. A choice only defines (or develops) your character in terms of the consequences you expect. In a game with no consequences, choices don't define character: the player can make any choice, and expect the same consequence - i.e. nothing. It says nothing about a character that he made the choice that he did, because he made it knowing that it was meaningless.

There are choices in Morrowind/Oblivion. They don't define character (in any non LARP sense) where they are predictably lacking in significant consequence - i.e. almost all of the time.
 

Saint_Proverbius

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Ismaul said:
But an RPG without consequences? Ridiculous. This was Fallout's flaw. You could just come to a town and wipe it clean. Unkillable NPCs? A direct consequence of replacing social structure and logic with a leveling system.

Fallout 2's flaw, mayhaps. Fallout did a decent job of scattering around NPCs which may make things easier at a later time. The big consequence I noticed of just going through and shooting anyone I felt like in Fallout was killing the smart ass drug dealer in The Hub. At some point, you need him to get RadX and RadAway the easy way. There is another way of getting it, but it's a huge pain compared to buying it.

Character development is usually presented in games by experience points, and sometimes levels. But that is not necessary. Any aspect of a character is worthy of development, be it fighting skills, thieving skills, social skills, social relations, personnality, influence, social standing, knowledge, etc. In no way does this force a gameplay mechanic, ie leveling, as a mandatory way to roleplay. The reason why common leveling is associated to roleplay is that most RPGs revolve around combat. Obviously, the gameplay mechanics are going to follow.

Yeah, it is. The experience gain is one thing that fundamentally seperates CRPGs from other genres. Space Traders aren't really CRPGs, but if you make the choice to kill a certain group of people in one faction, that faction starts to hate you. Their enemies start to like you. Choice and consequence. You can even argue the same thing about 4X and Empire Builder games that have diplomacy and track how you deal with other empires like most of them do.

Like I said, the problem is the way experience and levelling are handled in CRPGs. There's the old question of "Does a thief get experience from poisonning a well and killing everyone?" Well, why not? If you use a sword, you get XP, right? Then again, if the thief is making poison, perhaps that's how they should get XP instead of from poisonning the well.

There's a lot of games where characters get skill bonuses from using them, but I'm not sure why they don't just get general pool experience this way. Sneak passed a guard as a thief, get a few experience based on how hard observant the guard is. Make some strong poison, gain more experience.

For a warrior, give them XP for a successful sword swing, forging a weapon, and repairing a weapon. Things like that instead of the simple method of giving XP for reducing something's XP to zero. Wizards can get it for transcribing spells, making scrolls, enchanting something, and so on. Clerics for healing the wounded, successful buffing, etc. Each of the XP yields being based on the difficulty of the actions themselves. That way you don't simply tie XP to critter deaths.

You end up with the mightiest warrior in the land boasting about his prowess for more than just killing 1000 orcs. He might have killed 200 orcs, forged 100 swords for an army, modified his armor, won a few dozen barroom brawls, and done other things with his warrior-ish skill set.

And yeah, my examples are based around classes, but the same concept can be applied to a loose skill based, classless system including things like diplomacy where you gain XP for increasing your standing with people.

Best of all, it's one of those implimentations that's not hard for developers to do. A lot of games have skill raising for skill use. The only bitch you might have is people complaining you shouldn't get better at making poison by swinging a dagger.
 

Monolith

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Character progression can be much more than just levels and statistics. I'd like to see a RPG that neglects levels and numerical stat progression and takes a social system instead, where the character has to rise socially in a certain society through a variety of choices. Now that would be a RPG without leveling I'd appreciate.
 

LCJr.

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Well it's not logical getting better at making poison for swinging a dagger. Or like Fallout you kill some radscorps and level up and spend your points on speech skill. How does killing critters with a gun translate into being better at convincing people?

JA2 and Darklands use the system that the skills you actually use increase. Darklands goes a step further in that you can learn even if you fail your skill check. "That hurt! I won't try that next time!".

But just like classes I see leveling as a holdover from the AD&D days. It's not neccesary for a CRPG or PnP. I hate to sound like a broken record but GDW's system of starting with experienced characters worked extremely well. You didn't have to worry about whoring every possible XP and could instead focus on playing the game and your character.
 

galsiah

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Saint_Proverbius said:
Yeah, it is. The experience gain is one thing that fundamentally seperates CRPGs from other genres.
So what? The question is whether it helps make a quality game - not what genre it pushes the game into.

Again, a TES / Gothic etc. type game (done well) without stat progression would be neither a conventional RPG, nor a conventional adventure game. That's not important. What matters is whether it'd make for a more entertaining experience for many players.

I agree with you that stat progression systems shouldn't be judged on past mistakes, but on future possibilities - there are clearly many improvements to be made to almost all systems. However, every feature of a game should be evaluated on its merits - regardless of whether it's fundamental to the presumed genre. A game shouldn't be designed on the basis of genre in the first place, but rather according to its own ideas / vision. Genre is a classification tool after the fact - not a design motivation.

If a certain game can achieve its vision most effectively by sticking to most RPG ideas, but abandoning progression, then that's what should happen. If it can do so by improving the stat progression system, that's what should happen. Whether people finally decide it's an RPG, an adventure game, or something else entirely, is irrelevant.

A stat progression system is a tool, not a religious doctrine. That people have used the tool badly is no reason to stop using it, but neither should it be used unthinkingly in all cases.
I question the wisdom of any "Always use feature X" rule, but in this case (when the feature is so often badly screwed up), it doesn't even strike me as a useful guide.
 

SkeleTony

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Kraszu said:
SkeleTony said:
Kraszu said:
SkeleTony said:
RPGs are tactical simulation games whether you like it or not. They already have the sorts of games you are clamoring for here. Their called "Adventure games". No advancement/leveling..

System that I write about have advancement, so read it and then comment. I wont even brother to point other flaws of your argument.


Who are you and why do you think I care about your "system"?? You think you are going to find flaws in MY arguments and you make the above error(presuming that I read anything you wrote anywhere and was responding to such)?

Do try.

Why then you are position in forum moron. Who am? Poster that support what he say, who are you? Idiot that don't even read post in threat that he respond to. Reading is teh hard fuck off from codex or read before you post.


Not trying to pick on you about your English(I understand it is probably not your first language) but I could not make any sense of what you wrote above beyond that you want me to fuck something (or fuck off of something?!). And also that you seem to, for whatever reason(perhaps it is due to your limited grasp of English again) think that I have not read anything before I posted.

You do not seem to be firing on all cylinders here guy.
 

Lumpy

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8,525
galsiah said:
Claw said:
I'd split the lower box between choices and consequences
I wouldn't. A choice only defines (or develops) your character in terms of the consequences you expect. In a game with no consequences, choices don't define character: the player can make any choice, and expect the same consequence - i.e. nothing. It says nothing about a character that he made the choice that he did, because he made it knowing that it was meaningless.

There are choices in Morrowind/Oblivion. They don't define character (in any non LARP sense) where they are predictably lacking in significant consequence - i.e. almost all of the time.
I disagree. A choice does not have to have consequences to define the character, or it can have consequences yet not define character.
For example, say you're playing a charismatic character, and he's asked "Do you like communism" or whatever. Choosing either "Truth: Yes" or "Lie: Yes" defines your character more, but doesn't have any consequence in the game, since both end up with the same result. On the other hand, choosing either "Truth: Yes" or "Lie: No" have greater consequences, because the NPC might turn hostile on one answer and friendly on another. On the other hand, they don't define your character as much, since both mean that your character is a communist.
And there are almost no choices in either MW or OB, although those in Morrowind did have some consequences.
 

Mr Happy

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Messages
574
Ha, I was actually planning on making a thread like this. Looks like Lumpy beat me to it.

But anyways. Of course, character stat progression is in itself a form of choice and consequence. You choose an area to focus on, get the benefits of that type of character, but for the same reason, the resulting neglected skills may cause problems as well. This could be an argument for a skill-based system, you get more direct control. I do think, though, that a perfectly balanced game world would be just as well off with a use based system, having equal opporitunities in all areas to develop your kind of character. Not that a perfectly balanced world would make sense.

Character development is usually presented in games by experience points, and sometimes levels. But that is not necessary. Any aspect of a character is worthy of development, be it fighting skills, thieving skills, social skills, social relations, personnality, influence, social standing, knowledge, etc.


What about simply an attempt to reach a goal? What if you are, say, stranded on a desert island (fun RPG concept? totally) with some pals and your goal is basically to survive long enough to escape. Maybe at the beginning, you designed a character around some sort of model. A diplomat could convince hostile natives to lend a fishing boat. A more hardcore action sort of guy wouldnt be able to convince the natives not to attack, but could fight them off, steal their boat etc. Maybe an engineer could build their own escape craft, or signal a passing ship. Not a fully fleshed out idea, of course, but would development of stats really help this kind of game? And how far would it be from being an RPG? Maybe you learn a few things about getting fresh water from the native tribe, learn how to throw a spear, but these would be more perks than skills with a measured stat. Which brings me to another point.

In developing a character, is categorizing abilities as seperate skills always the most effective way to define a character and allow for development? Generally, skill lists are certainly not completely comprehensive of everything, which seems to be where perks come into play. But take an RPG in a short time span (a 24 RPG!). In this time span, it would probably not make much sense to have much skill development by getting "experience" practicing these skills. Learning things would probably be more about talking to somebody who shows you how to do something. Basically, just the "perk" part of character development. Again, how far would this be from being an RPG?

But, like galsiah said, genre shouldn't be the main factor to consider, though trying to define the "boundries" is always fun.


Fallout 2's flaw, mayhaps.

Fallout 2 did have the town reputations measured though, which I do not recall seeing in Fallout 1 (correct me if I'm wrong). I dont remember how much effect it had, but I do remember wiping out Gecko to try to get Vault city citizenship, and getting the Beserker trait. Of course, the obvious loss of info/equipment/opporitunities isnt enough of a consequence in most cases, but it would at least make sense in a fallout setting, as it might be hard to connect you to the acts, unless there was some hidden survivor. Of course, giving the character the ability to be able to wipe out a whole town is (in most cases) probably a design flaw in itself, but anyway..
 

Ismaul

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Claw said:
If I may propose an improvement, I'd split the lower box between choices and consequences, to emphasize that choices define your character while consequences trigger development.
Sure, choices define you character, and consequences develop him. But, consequences don't develop your character if he didn't make choices. Well, they do, but that would be determinism, and we usually don't want this to be the main reason for character development, or we'd have a Final Fantasy type of game, with forced and fixed development. Sketching that is touchy, so I went with symetry instead of something bizarre that wouldn't describe roleplaying better.


Claw said:
I'm not sure what you mean by "Fallout's flaw" though.
Ismaul said:
This was Fallout's flaw. You could just come to a town and wipe it clean.
Bad wording, the flaw was in the next sentence, not in the previous one. And, what Saint said.


Saint_Proverbius said:
The experience gain is one thing that fundamentally seperates CRPGs from other genres. Space Traders aren't really CRPGs, but if you make the choice to kill a certain group of people in one faction, that faction starts to hate you. Their enemies start to like you. Choice and consequence.
I disagree. Roleplaying can be present in other type of games, just like combat/puzzles can be present in roleplaying. Having some roleplaying in a game doesn't make it a RPG. RPGs (should) focus on roleplaying. Space Traders don't.
 

SkeleTony

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Messages
938
Dementia Praecox said:
Oh boy, where to start.

SkeleTony said:
Dementia Praecox said:
What the hell, when I read a book I don't get, nor do I need, a reward for finishing a chapter. The urge to find out how the story goes is enough to keep me going. I remember Prelude to Darkness getting some pepper for insufficient rewards and loot. I didn't need that, my wanting to see how the story unfolded, how that particular quest turned out was more than enough to keep me playing (until the bugs and frequent ctds killed everything, but that's a different matter). Same goes for PST. The story and quests was what kept me hooked. In fact I played that game, in spite of the combat and phat loot, not because of it.

And you were calling ME "stupid" kiddo?
No gramps, I weren't.

Yeah kiddo, you were. At least man-up and admit it because it is right above in black and white. Not important though. We all make mistakes and I am over it.

SkeleTony said:
Reading a book is an activity where one picks up a primarily textual piece and reads what someone else has written, with no interaction on the reader's part in how the story unfolds.
No shit.[/quote]

Context man...something we both could work on I think. ;)

SkeleTony said:
RPGs are a genre of INTERACTIVE GAMES(not books)...
Hello Captain Obvious! What are you trying to prove?

That the "rewards" of a RPG should not be expected to be identical to those of reading a book(as per your original 'WTF? I don't need stats/leveling to enjoy a book!?' argument).

SkeleTony said:
that entail entirely different "rewards"(in addition to seeing a story unfold in most cases).
This is the exact matter at hand. Why are they different? Do they have to be different? This is what we are discussing. Wake up.

Wide awake...and yes, they DO have to be different because otherwise you would not have RPGs AND books...just books(or RPGS).

SkeleTony said:
If you enjoy reading a book more than playing a RPG then go read a book!
Now plaese point me to where I say that I enjoy reading books more than playing RPGs.


It was implied in your argument that RPGs should entail the same attributes/rewards of books/adventure games but in any case you will notice that nowhere did I SAY any such thing. I ASKED "If you enjoy reading a book more than playing a RPG...".

So long as we are being nitpicky and all...;)


It happens to be (mostly) the truth, but that's besides the point.


Agreed and agreed.


And if game developers actually rose to the level of quality literature, I'd probably spend more time playing their games.


Well, that's a subjective thing I guess. For me personally that does not make much sense. It is kind of like saying "Until superhero comic-books are as well written as Dostyevski's works, i won't be looking at any of them.". On the surface, to some, this might seem rational but it ignores the fact that people look at and read superhero comics for much different reasons than they read The Brothers Karamazov(i.e. artwork, popcorn entertainment, good literature of an entirely different genre etc.).


If I love one thing, it doesn't mean I can't like another.


Correct Captain State-the-obvious.


And I am, in fact, reading a book. You should too, you'd hopefully pick up some reading comprehension, which obviously is suffering for the time being.


Oh boy! A pissing contest! We can now switch the discussion to who reads more of what quality of book every day/week! YAY!
Okay I will go first. I am just now reading Minds, Brains and Computers: The Foundations of Cognitive Thinking. Before that I read Broca's Brain by Carl Sagan and at some point in the next week I will start reading this copy of The Age of Voltaire by Will and Ariel Durant.
Fairly typical stuff for me but every bit counts when trying desperately to raise my 'reading comprehension' stat(what a grind!).

SkeleTony said:
Why play a RPG, notice that the rewards are nothing like being lead along a linear story and then complain about it not being a book?!?
Hmm, this is a tough one. Could it be that I happen to like playing RPGs? No, that clearly can't be the case, as I'm (zomg!) criticising the genre and come with suggestions on how it can be improved.

Straw man. No one was jumping on you for criticisng the genre(Hell, NO ONE in HISTORY criticizes this genre more than I do!).


SkeleTony said:
Dementia Praecox said:
A non-linear game with multiple story-arches without the typical loot-type reward and stat-based character advancement is entirely possible.
Yes. In fact it has been done before. They call them Adventure games. You should try one sometime because they are exactly what you are clamoring for here I think( See also the sub-genre of interactive fiction).
Ok, I'll admit my description was a bit inadequate, but the gist of what I meant should be more clear in the context of:

Dementia Praecox said:
Now if I could get one of those, in an open world of the Gothics or Elder Scrolls-type, with some heavy choice and consequences, and a good story to boot, I'd be overjoyed! I don't give a fuck about it's genre. I want that game!"
...which you conveniently decided to leave out of your quote.


Nothing 'convenient' about it guy but I apologize for misunderstanding you. Having your first post directed at me start by calling me 'stupid' kind of threw me off a bit.


What I was fantasizing about, was an open ended, non linear (look it up if you are unsure of the meaning),

I know full well what the term means but I would wager that most in here do not. Most people commonly mistake 'non-linear' to mean 'Having no over-arching plot or goal of any kind', SIMS-like gaming experience when this is not the case(as far as RPGs are concerned).


... quest based game. A game where story and characters will have the depth of the old adventure games, the game world would be open and free roaming as the Gothics and Elder Scrolls, but where the incentive to keep playing aren't to übering your characters abilities or collecting all the ancient artifacts. A game where they your main focus are to see the game world react to your actions, to see your actions have meaningful consequences, playing people and factions up against each other. To see the story evolve and have a solution. Story and choice aren't mutually exclusive, which Gothic III showed to a degree, it's just harder to do. Now I have yet to play an adventure game that offer me the same type of freedom Fallout, Arcanum, Gothic III or even The Elder Scrolls-series did. If you have played such an adventure game, please point me to it. I'd be overjoyed.

I know of none off-hand. But that is more a self-imposed restriction of developers of adventure games than it is a restriction imposed by the genre itself.
I see what you are wanting for though. My only point here is that I do not see how it is possible to have such things as you want above in a game and it still BE a RPG. RPGs by definition entail quantified progression of characters and taking away such incentives to play is like taking away the incentive to see new 'levels'(with new graphical environs and such) and beasties in an FPS game.

This is getting a bit tedious, but here goes nothing. I'm here at the RPG forums discussing (you can look that up too) the topic "RPGs without leveling", and suggesting (keep the dictionary at hand) how RPGs could take more cues, than it allready does, from books and adventure games to motivate the player, and keeping the players interest.


That is fine and good. Discussion is always a good thing provided one side is able to keep his/her urge to make snarky remarks about the other's reading comprehension and such under control. It would be one thing if I actually demonstrated some difficulty in understanding what it written(and if I did then why would I even be responding in the thread in such a way that provokes you to go 'point-counterpoint' with me here?!) but to just toss such remarks around because you think they are clever insults that everyone and his brother does not use every five minutes at these forums and forums across the web...well, that is just asinine.


I don't say: stats, loot GTFO form my RPGs. I'm saying it's entirely possible to make a game without stats and loot, witch still could be more of a RPG, than a old school adventure game. And as I said. If I am wrong in this, and the resulting game would turn out to be impossible to be classified as a RPG, so what? Give me that game. I still want it. Despite the fact it weren't to be an RPG. Or an adventure game, for that matter. Or a bloody book. I still want that game.


---
Edit: Ok, missed this:
SkeleTony said:
You are mis-reading me here guy. I am well aware of GDW & Traveller and was a fan of those games myself(though I enjoyed RuneQuest much more ;)). Traveller, in all of it's various editions, was a RPG, not an "adventure game". I think you are getting to caught up in irrelevant details like "leveling"(meaning having specific character "levels" reached at what amounts to predefined numbers of "kills" in many RPGs).
In short, "leveling" is not by any means a necessary component of RPGs but quantified/stat-based progression IS and therefore Traveller is a RPG because it featured this element.
What? I haven't played Traveller, but the gist of what you're saying are that all games with quantified/stat-based progression are RPGs, right?

SkeleTony said:
D&D was a terrible game system as I have repeatedly stated before. Please do not assume I am some derfender of "D&D's way". I am well aware of probably every single one of thsoe "alternatives" in P&P gaming(I would wager my house that I remember games that you never heard of). I started playing them shortly after D&D came out and I owned/played hundreds of different RPGs from Tunnels & Trolls to Daredevils(FGU game about pulp era heroes).
Wow, you totally baffle me with your awesome PnP-knowledge. I'm almost unable to write, that's how impressed I am. I barely manage to ask you this: Why are you in a CRPG forum discussing CRPGs when you enjoy PnP RPGs so much?[/quote]
 

SkeleTony

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Messages
938
LCJr. said:
SkeleTony said:
You are mis-reading me here guy. I am well aware of GDW & Traveller and was a fan of those games myself(though I enjoyed RuneQuest much more ;)). Traveller, in all of it's various editions, was a RPG, not an "adventure game". I think you are getting to caught up in irrelevant details like "leveling"(meaning having specific character "levels" reached at what amounts to predefined numbers of "kills" in many RPGs).
In short, "leveling" is not by any means a necessary component of RPGs but quantified/stat-based progression IS and therefore Traveller is a RPG because it featured this element.



Seems to me that you're contradicting yourself. What's the difference between a predeveloped and basically static character from Traveller(or about any GDW rpg) and having a computer game with the same type of predeveloped and static character? Why label the computer game an adventure and the PnP game a rpg?

Going from memory here and with all the editions of Traveler that came out(Megatraveller, etc.) there is a chance I am getting this wrong but Traveller characters were not "static" IIRC. They advanced with experience as characters in any RPG do. If not then, no...I would not call that a RPG in it's(Traveler's) original form.


D&D was a terrible game system as I have repeatedly stated before. Please do not assume I am some defender of "D&D's way". I am well aware of probably every single one of those "alternatives" in P&P gaming(I would wager my house that I remember games that you never heard of). I started playing them shortly after D&D came out and I owned/played hundreds of different RPGs from Tunnels & Trolls to Daredevils(FGU game about pulp era heroes).

Now you are sounding like a Bryce alt.


Well, I am not Bryce and about the only thing I know about this person is that you guys don't like him and you keep comparing me to him as a means of insulting me. it was old three pages back. If you have a contention with an idea I present or an argument then by all means let's hear it. But playing this game of presuming I am someone elose's alt and attacking THAT ala ad hominem is stupid.


As someone's sig goes "I am to old for this shit." myself. I remember FGU's Daredevils, Aftermath(?) and they had a superhero game Villians&Vigalantes(?) just never messed with them myself. Didn't they also keep Chivalry & Sorcery alive?

They were the original publishers of C&S. They published dozens and dozens of RPGS back in the golden age, many of them not good but there were a few legendary exceptions such as Villains & Vigilantes(by long time industry artist Jeff Dee and comic-book scribe Jack Herman), Daredevils(game system had flaws and artwork was poor but the game overall was very good and the modules were some of best written). Space Opera was another popular one.
 

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