Anime Another Gamasutra Article! "We Don’t Need the Haters"

[Clockwork Knight]

I don't get it, what's bad about wanting more female protagonists in video games?

Nothing, as long as you don't make it into some stupid matter of "justice".

 

[Excidium]

And as long as they're hot/not voiced by felicia day

 

[Dr Tomo]

But the point I am trying to make is most of your argument is the same and I don't see the logical connection between them.

...what?

Look at my previous posts again and then come back.

If "every" industry had it, that would mean it isn't related to industry at all and it's just an overall societal/cultural problem

Of course it is societal/cultural as I am unsure how a person can think it pertains to one facet of life. But if you want to change something you start small and this article is trying to convince the public and developers to try and change the status quo which is .

(thus meaning the SJW crowd STILL wrong because they focus on the wrong area entirely).

So please explain where their focus should be? Movie industry? Government? Retailers? As this article is confronting a issue that is in a hobby just like previous authors did with movies and etc.

I don't get it, what's bad about wanting more female protagonists in video games?

Nothing, as long as you don't make it into some stupid matter of "justice".

Well the article doesn't come off that way, but can be mistaken for leaning in that direction. Worst offender is Anita's articles as they act like that it is a inherent right that studios must develop games that can only be strong females of her liking (which she is a minority even told by females). Pisses me off that the dumb bitch (pardon) has enough money to develop a game and could have been proactive about it and instead pms's on youtube of how they are being oppressed as a gender. Money could have gone to better developers on kickstarter, but instead wasted on videos that try to manipulate people into her skewed mindset using the same arguments like this thread.

 

[DragoFireheart]

Look at my previous posts again and then come back.

"Quality into a gender issue".

It's not a gender issue.

 

[deuxhero]

As this article is confronting a issue that is in a hobby just like previous authors did with movies and etc.

For previous mediums, the authors focused on how the writing (of women and minorities) is predictable and shallow thus shit, without making the entire thing about how "it's racist". "It's shitty writing (motivated by racism)" is far more convincing to anyone who doesn't already agree with you than just whining something is racist.

The SJWs on the other hand, outright praises really shitty writing of what they claim want improved, and demand inclusion even when it wouldn't fit or is very forced, demand the exclusion of any "intolerant" character (even if this character was always treated as an unsympathetic villain) and attack the people they want to agree with them.

 

[Dexter]

And although the article is not worth commenting on, the reality is that it is young men who invest substantial money in games, buying multiple new releases, and making this business viable, not women. For this simple economic imperative, this business is always going to ultimately cater to what they want.

This isn't true as such; women are a rather large part of the broader "gaming market", even though if you talk about such nowadays you are apparently talking about over a billion people that participate in it in one way or another.

They are also largely being catered towards in the markets where it is found that they have exceptional spending power e.g.:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/06/03/96-percent-of-eve-online-players-are-male/

There have also always been a fair number of female protagonists in both mainstream and especially in Indie games: http://www.mobygames.com/game-group/protagonist-female
From all of those, publishers have apparently only managed to turn two series into "larger franchises" (Tomb Raider, which was also marketed towards sex appeal and Metroid, which is basically a mech/robot game with a twist).

Personally I've never had a problem with female protagonists in games till this new wave of indignation set in, I've played them since as far back as I can remember with Cauldron on the C64.

There’s a whole bunch of Adventure games like the Blackwell Series, The Longest Journey, Emerald City Confidential, Secret Files, Haunted, Gray Matter, Syberia, Still Life, Broken Sword, A Vamypre Story, Winter Voices, To The Moon, Edna & Harvey
There also a lot of other games I remember from even recent history: Hydrophobia, Giana Sisters, Venetica, American McGee’s Alice, They Bleed Pixels, Aquaria, Velvet Assassin, The Path, Lucidity, Puzzle Quest, Lume, Cargo!, Sanctum, Twin Sector, Iji
Most of Carpe Fulgur’s games: Recettear, Chantelise, Fortune Summoners
When you go further back in time there ain’t only Beyond Good & Evil, Portal, Dreamfall and Mirror’s Edge, which always come up.
What about The Wheel of Time, Oni, No One Lives Forever I+II, Drakan, Legend of Kyrandia 2, Phantasmagoria, King’s Quest IV/VII, Septerra Core, Darkened Skye or Zanzarah?

One could even say I've done more to further their goals than a large part of the SJWs since as far back as I remember by not bitching about something but purchasing said titles and largely also playing them like any other game.

If there was such a pent up demand for these sort of titles though, one would think they would sell better and the market would regulate similar to how it does in the Social/Casual sector, yet they remain a niche and another "AAA" title that went with a female protagonists and even banked on that for PR reasons recently: http://www.joystiq.com/2013/03/20/publishers-rejected-remember-me-because-of-female-lead/ was yet another financial failure.

What these people seem to have a problem with (other than accepting reality) is apparently that the market doesn't bend to their will and strongly worded Blog posts and forum messages, but the money that people are willing to spend (also see KickStarter).

After all, why buy titles that do exactly what you are constantly harping on about when it is much easier to bitch at how unfair it is that games with largely (90%+) male player bases like Call of Duty, Battlefield or GTA don't adhere to feminist ideology: http://jezebel.com/i-really-want-to-play-grand-theft-auto-v-but-im-not-g-727633804 all the while ignoring the obvious irony of stating that "they won't buy" such a title that doesn't cater to them for exactly that reason while ignoring that the (much larger) target market of said title might do the same thing if they change it to reflect what they want.

The Codex tends to get hung up about games being shitty. In truth, most gaming forums out there are actually pretty satisfied with games and there's a lot more negative reaction towards female characters in games and women in the games industry. On this forum you tend to get a distorted view of what the gamers as a whole thinks of the games industry. For a lot of people here it comes down to games not being very good, but for most people beyond the Codex it's not that simple.

I think you might be getting at least an equally distorted view if you take what clickbaity dumps like Kotaku, RPS, The Escapist or Polygon "write" about these things as representative of the larger game buying market.
In reality there are in fact many women who even prefer to play as something like this: http://www.aeriagames.com/forums/en/viewtopic.php?t=1793473

The point at which these kinds of articles take a turn for the worse and I start having a problem with them is one where it isn't displayed as a matter of opinion or like/dislike but devolves into a moral outrage/social justice circle jerk over depiction or themes in relation to video game characters that will apparently destroy society as we know it one could believe.
See this for instance: http://www.pcgamer.com/previews/hotline-miami-2-wrong-number/

Apparently the writer expects, nay almost demands said game to take special care of her precious feelings and has failed to notice that there are warning labels on package or storefront for that very reason: http://www.esrb.org/ratings/synopsis.jsp?Certificate=10001821 stating things like “Intense Violence, Blood and Gore, Partial Nudity, Drug Reference, Strong Language, Crude Humor and Use of Tobacco” for its prequel that even lawmakers and your usual soccer mom accepted as norm.

If game creators don't abide by the latest crusade led by SJWs they are branded "misogynist", "14 year old boy" or similar in actual articles on these specific publications:
https://soundcloud.com/ben-kuchera/jaffe-confrontation
http://kotaku.com/game-developers-really-need-to-stop-letting-teenage-boy-472724616
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/02/02/cdp-on-cyberpunks-trailer-social-commentary-in-games/

The freedom of the people that might not like something or get their precious feelings hurt by any one topic is the freedom to look upon the packaging and choose not to buy/rent/play/watch any content they may find unsuitable.
The freedom of the rest of society is the freedom to make and consume content that any one specific individual or group of people might not like or approve of.
Having to abide by presumed moral guidelines or censor oneself because certain people might feel uncomfortable with the content one has created or the things someone says (as long as it wasn’t illegal) isn’t freedom, but tyranny of that particular subgroup over the whole of society.

It's particularly disturbing that these people are being taken seriously and their arguments taken at face value by as many people in the first place since the medium has just been through about an entire decade of "violence in videogames" and "sex in videogames" debates largely campaigned by politicians or religious nut jobs looking for attention.

Bulletstorm causes rape: http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/run-your-lives-fox-says-bulletstorm-causes-rape-125233
SexBox Mass Effect scandal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKzF173GqTU
GTA "Hot Coffee" rots the brains of children debacle: http://www.cnet.com.au/debate-intensifies-over-hot-coffee-sex-in-gta-240055862.htm
Video games turn children into killers: http://www.salsa.net/peace/videoviolence.html


It's just a different kind of sensationalist/tabloid crap.

 

[DragoFireheart]

AKA: women like social games and puzzle games. Guys like competitive and strategy games.

 

[deuxhero]

Actually, I'm pretty sure that image used ASSFAGGOTS as a basis for "strategy", because strategy tends to be more equal

 

[Humanity has risen!]

The "genres" in which women are more numerous have shown to be fads or are severely falling, just ask Zinga. Also in many cases they are profitable because of the so called "whales", which are almost entirely men. App store kind of games don't make those who make the games run huge risks, but they don't offer enough revenue to make 98%+ of studios gain a living wage due to race to the bottom prices and the sheer flood of offerings making it impossible to stand out.

Women do not spend a lot of money on games on a regular basis, it is still almost entirely men who make this industry viable, outside of a few niches. Good viable games require real money to make, huge amounts of money, so they have to be more expensive, and it isn't women who buy millions of copies of Grand Theft Auto or Uncharted. Nor is it women who pay for small, avant garde Kickstarter projects.

 

[Roguey]

Sure are a lot of insecure men getting upset about some nobody with a blog.

Ernest Adams is a freelance game designer, writer, and lecturer. He is the author of five books, including Fundamentals of Game Design, a popular university textbook, and Break Into the Game Industry: How to Get a Job Making Video Games. Ernest was most recently employed as a lead designer at Bullfrog Productions, and for several years before that he was the audio/video producer on the Madden NFL Football product line. He has developed on-line, computer, and console games for everything from the IBM 360 mainframe to the present day. He is the founder of the International Game Developers' Association, and a frequent lecturer at the Game Developers' Conference.

Oh, so he's not quite a nobody. I never heard of 'em so I don't care.

 

[Pika-Cthulhu]

Sure are a lot of insecure men getting upset about some nobody with a blog.

Ernest Adams is a freelance game designer, writer, and lecturer. He is the author of five books, including Fundamentals of Game Design, a popular university textbook, and Break Into the Game Industry: How to Get a Job Making Video Games. Ernest was most recently employed as a lead designer at Bullfrog Productions, and for several years before that he was the audio/video producer on the Madden NFL Football product line. He has developed on-line, computer, and console games for everything from the IBM 360 mainframe to the present day. He is the founder of the International Game Developers' Association, and a frequent lecturer at the Game Developers' Conference.

Oh, so he's not quite a nobody. I never heard of 'em so I don't care.

Thats, wow. Was he in a coma?

 

[Tehdagah]

As this article is confronting a issue that is in a hobby just like previous authors did with movies and etc.

Nah, feminists are pushing political agenda and you know this. Just like they did with movies and etc.

 

[sea]

Unless the game in question is worse because it was made with female audience in mind, hmmm?

Do you have any tangible evidence showing that an otherwise male-targeted game has been made inferior in any way by changes made specifically appealing to female audiences, and which is directly a product of appealing to women rather than a product of poor quality work in general?

Gamasutra used to be a readable site, but this is completely indistinguishable from obnoxious, bottom of the barrell Kotaku click-bait. Nice to see the writer insulting the readers at multiple points and being such a bleeding heart, that's some great journalistic standards. I don't understand why sea keeps associating with it.

To be fair, it's a blog, the guy doesn't get paid to write it and Gamasutra simply selects articles they feel are worth featuring (though by what metric they decide this is anyone's guess, in my experience it can be nearly random at times).

 

[DefJam101]

You could argue that the recent trend of shoving romance options into RPGs was intended to appeal to female audiences

 

[evdk]

You could argue that the recent trend of shoving romance options into RPGs was intended to appeal to female audiences

The waifufags make a large percentage of that fanbase. Talissweatanalysis.jpg

 

[deuxhero]

Unless the game in question is worse because it was made with female audience in mind, hmmm?

Do you have any tangible evidence showing that an otherwise male-targeted game has been made inferior in any way by changes made specifically appealing to female audiences, and which is directly a product of appealing to women rather than a product of poor quality work in general?

Can't think of anything about women off hand, but I can tell you the closely related ever growing acronym crowd has ruined a bunch.

For a sure example of "feminists", just wait for ME2, which Skankasisan told Dice needs to be easier for women (apparently they aren't just as competent).

 

[Roguey]

You could argue that the recent trend of shoving romance options into RPGs was intended to appeal to female audiences

3 out of the 4 BG2 romances were meant for men.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

From an essentialist point of view, this article evokes a strong "Yeah...and?" response. Given that most games are all about combat or conflict, it's not a surprise that men are often the lead character(s); they more naturally fall into the roles. Attempts at shoehorning women into these roles often result in the "man with tits" archetype; a female body absent any feminine behaviors or personality characteristics. But, hey, having the body and being "strong" is good enough for Last-Men marching in the tumblr-brigades who fetishize this type.

 

[dnf]

To be fair, it's a blog, the guy doesn't get paid to write it and Gamasutra simply selects articles they feel are worth featuring (though by what metric they decide this is anyone's guess, in my experience it can be nearly random at times).

Try to make an article about oversensitive feminist bullshit in games from a patriarchal POV and see if it will get published.

Sure are a lot of insecure men getting upset about some nobody with a blog.

Ernest Adams is a freelance game designer, writer, and lecturer. He is the author of five books, including Fundamentals of Game Design, a popular university textbook, and Break Into the Game Industry: How to Get a Job Making Video Games. Ernest was most recently employed as a lead designer at Bullfrog Productions, and for several years before that he was the audio/video producer on the Madden NFL Football product line. He has developed on-line, computer, and console games for everything from the IBM 360 mainframe to the present day. He is the founder of the International Game Developers' Association, and a frequent lecturer at the Game Developers' Conference.

Oh, so he's not quite a nobody. I never heard of 'em so I don't care.

More game designers veterans proving to be cluesless morons? you don't say...

AKA: women like social games and puzzle games. Guys like competitive and strategy games.

Yeah, it's pretty telling that women who likes men's games have issues in general. Our tastes reflect our nature, so women in general will be more driven torwards the cancer of gaming and such: Social games.

 

[Dr Tomo]

For previous mediums, the authors focused on how the writing (of women and minorities) is predictable and shallow thus shit, without making the entire thing about how "it's racist". "It's shitty writing (motivated by racism)" is far more convincing to anyone who doesn't already agree with you than just whining something is racist.

The SJWs on the other hand, outright praises really shitty writing of what they claim want improved, and demand inclusion even when it wouldn't fit or is very forced, demand the exclusion of any "intolerant" character (even if this character was always treated as an unsympathetic villain) and attack the people they want to agree with them.

Well if we are going by this definition then he isn't really a SJW. The only think that makes him one in my opinion is the fact that he believes a female protagonists is feasible and will change things when all it does is bankrupt the studio and people are out of a job (extreme case). If he attacks anyone it really is people that are misogynistic and for some reason exec's who are seeing the financials and concluding that it isn't worth the investment.

I would defend his position more if he didn't believe in this weird idea like all SJW's similar to Anita that a female protagonists would make a huge difference. This is why everyone that argues for this shit (pardon) is usually a worker not owner of a studio or some person that doesn't code what so ever. Honestly I don't see a problem of more female protagonists in games and support it, but still doesn't change the fact that sales are going to suck shit (pardon).

Dexter

Honestly I would say 0 fucks (pardon) should be given and they can keep preaching for what studios should be doing and if the the studios are dumb/give in they can bankrupt themselves for all I care. Also you were going strong until you posted a forum of a few chicks that are perfectly cool about playing games that are similar to the picture. This actually reminds me of the post on the FF thread of a poster claiming that the guild he was in was full of rich designers who splurge money into the game because we can believe just about anything on the interweb.

Thank you for the links as it does provide a nice contrast that the author pushes only for more female protagonists and only attacks detractors of actual misconceptions I always see on the interweb and for some odd reason Exec's. So in a nut shell other then a portion on detractors and their misconceptions the rest of the article is crap and doesn't matter.

As this article is confronting a issue that is in a hobby just like previous authors did with movies and etc.

Nah, feminists are pushing political agenda and you know this. Just like they did with movies and etc.

You are talking about Sweden most likely and that is a cesspool that I am glad I don't live in, as I expect in the future that men are going to have to wear gold stars for being a lesser gender. Also at feminists pushing any political agenda, only thing they do that is worth caring is they show tits and amusement.

You could argue that the recent trend of shoving romance options into RPGs was intended to appeal to female audiences

The waifufags make a large percentage of that fanbase. Talissweatanalysis.jpg

I find this believable and would make sense why Bioware is big on this after seeing their community manager and others employees .

 

[Haba]

Do you have any tangible evidence showing that an otherwise male-targeted game has been made inferior in any way by changes made specifically appealing to female audiences, and which is directly a product of appealing to women rather than a product of poor quality work in general?

I do, but you can look the same things up yourself. It is not exactly hidden or anything, they even hold lectures on the subject. Of course all of this is subjective, so if one likes more story-oriented games with less actual gameplay challenge, one could argue that the change is actually positive.

The poor quality of work in general may be the result of the same thinking as well: "we need to have more women as designers and writers!". Unfortunately often this translates into unqualified people making design choices.

 

[Dexter]

The "genres" in which women are more numerous have shown to be fads or are severely falling, just ask Zinga. Also in many cases they are profitable because of the so called "whales", which are almost entirely men. App store kind of games don't make those who make the games run huge risks, but they don't offer enough revenue to make 98%+ of studios gain a living wage due to race to the bottom prices and the sheer flood of offerings making it impossible to stand out.
Women do not spend a lot of money on games on a regular basis, it is still almost entirely men who make this industry viable, outside of a few niches. Good viable games require real money to make, huge amounts of money, so they have to be more expensive, and it isn't women who buy millions of copies of Grand Theft Auto or Uncharted. Nor is it women who pay for small, avant garde Kickstarter projects.

From a new study regarding mobile gaming and "whales":

Mobile (and Social) gaming players are largely female, you are right that apparently more of the big spenders are male, but "almost entirely" doesn't seem accurate. It's not a case of 90% bias towards men like in a lot of competitive Online shooters or MMOs. They are a large and important part of that industry. They don't matter that much for the numbers of retail sales on AAA titles though like a lot of people seem to imply and they are indeed a lot more fickle animals (similar to the Wii effect) than your typical "gamer" that buys games consistently and likely spends large amounts of money over long periods of time.

Also you were going strong until you posted a forum of a few chicks that are perfectly cool about playing games that are similar to the picture. This actually reminds me of the post on the FF thread of a poster claiming that the guild he was in was full of rich designers who splurge money into the game because we can believe just about anything on the interweb.

It’s true though and there are a large number of women who either actively like that style or simply don’t care (and by the way, that wasn’t just “a few chicks” but a thread of ~115+ pages full of players of various ethnicities and backgrounds that seem to be playing and enjoying “Scarlet Blade” similar to the “Codex picture” thread (who would fake something like that and why?), a game for which you might have seen a few Ads for on the Codex).
Their viewpoint and the viewpoint of a large amount of the player base (where are the opinions of all these casual gamers or similar that don’t give a fuck?) that hasn’t taken part in social justice studies are usually completely ignored or hand-waved in favor of a few Tumblr warriors that thrive on controversy and bring in the clicks/hits.
There’s also that entire “cosplay” scene: http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/06...alk-sexism-femininity-and-cookies-in-the-mail

Spoiler

That's not a side of the discussion that gets a lot of airtime...
The Vixen Gamer: That’s a shame, too. That’s sexist in itself, right? I’ve copped a bit of flack from other females. They see what I do, they see I have a little bit of a sexy persona or whatever. I’ve been accused of using my looks to get ahead. I mean, sorry, if I wanted to do that, I’d go into porn. I am me, this is Clare, and this is essentially why I created this character of The Vixen Gamer. A part of that is me. She’s a hugely exaggerated part of my ego, it’s not me on a daily basis, but there are elements of me in all those characters I adore: Wonder Woman, Lara Croft, female versions of Assassin’s Creed or a Sith… I think it’s so sad we’re at a point now with feminism where other women are turning on one another.
Ardella: Sexism is really a point of view. It’s how you react to it, and how you portray yourself as to whether or not you allow people to objectify you. Sexuality is something to feel incredibly proud of, not to hide or cover up or keep from the world. If you feel like you’re sexy and that makes you feel good, go out, be proud of it – and don’t let anyone treat you like an object if that’s not the way you want to be treated. In comic books, that’s the great thing about female characters. They are sexy, but they’re also in control. They can accept that people go, “You’re hot,” but then they’ll kick ass.
Black Cat: It’s empowering. A lot of people look at sexier cosplay girls and they think, “You’re giving females a bad name ‘cos you’re being slutty.” In actual fact you look at yourself in the mirror and think, “Right, I’m a woman. That means I’ve got this, this, and that, I may as well use them.” People are like, “You can’t use your sexuality to your advantage.” Why not? If I’ve got it, I may as well do something with it. I have no shame in putting on makeup every morning and trying to make myself attractive. It annoys me when girls look at other girls and say, “You’re giving us a bad name ‘cos you’re a slut ‘cos you’re pretty, or you wear a skimpy costume.” It’s just like, “Well, no. I’ve got everything underneath the costume, I’m just putting something over the top of me.” It’s not me trying to be slutty, I’m embracing my sexuality and my femininity. It’s a shame they can’t do the same thing.
The Vixen Gamer: I see these crazy feminist gamer conversations or ones inspired by that, and wonder, “Is that subject matter really hurting somebody? Do we really need to discuss whether that woman’s boobs are real or not?” What’s happening in Palestine is 10 times more important.
Ardella: I’m definitely no feminist, and I do often clash with girls who consider themselves major feminists. I say to them, “You know what, it’s what makes me feel good. It’s not necessarily because anyone’s told me this is how I should feel.” Then you get into all of the media saying this is what you should enjoy, blah blah, nature over nurture – and that’s just a long path to go down. End of the day, I do what I do because I love it. Makes me feel good.

And there are entirely different cultures like most of Eastern Europe, Russia, Asiatic countries (especially South Korea and Japan) etc. with entirely different views on these “issues”, which are being ignored and waved aside because some 20-30something “gaming journalist” with a background in social studies obviously knows better than them.
Or you know… at least somewhat more moderate people:
http://gamasutra.com/blogs/JanetteG...to_Change_the_Way_We_Fight_Against_Sexism.php
http://www.gamingexcellence.com/features/the-top-five-mistakes-were-all-making-with-women-in-gaming

If you want to understand shame, walk into a bra store and ask if they carry a 30FF bra. It's a life-defining thing, never mind the ostracism I experience in "women gamers" groups: a favorite pastime in these groups is bashing big-breasted girls, and you're not treated very well when you object to that on the grounds of... being one.

 

[kazgar]

I was hoping that infographic was satire and it was really comparing the gaming habits of actual whales to people, showing how infographics like that are easily biased, manipulated and are basically propaganda. Disappointed its actually a thing.

I'd now make one if I was good at photoshop.

 

[Dr Tomo]

It’s true though and there are a large number of women who either actively like that style or simply don’t care (and by the way, that wasn’t just “a few chicks” but a thread of ~115+ pages full of players of various ethnicities and backgrounds that seem to be playing and enjoying “Scarlet Blade” similar to the “Codex picture” thread (who would fake something like that and why?), a game for which you might have seen a few Ads for on the Codex).

It is irrelevant if the thread had over 50k worth of posts and has 150k members, in the end the author of that blog numbers is more reliable then the forum you are basing your argument on. What you are doing is something called "convenient sampling" which is stat 101 stuff. Hell if I wanted to do something like that I could have linked that twitter of females in the industry complaining about harassment .

Anyway for the rest not sure what the point you are trying to make as I thought I made clear that I can give 0 fucks (pardon) about SJW's. Not sure how linking a bunch of articles with authors having their heads up their asses is going to convince me that the author in this article doesn't have legitimate points.

 

[mondblut]

More female characters—especially protagonists—who are not hypersexualized and whose clothing is appropriate for their activity.

Why would anyone want that?

Oh, right.

Faggots.