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ANTHEM - failed Destiny clone from BioWare

Agame

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CDProjekt made their own game engine and developed both Witcher 2 and Witcher 3 using it in less time than it took to create Anthem.

I REALLY hope at some time in the future we get the leaked story of development, it has gotta be interesting. This game screams of development hell and almost certainly getting completely scrapped and remade half way through development. The final product looks like it was rushed together in 2 years or less.
 
Joined
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556
I REALLY hope at some time in the future we get the leaked story of development, it has gotta be interesting. This game screams of development hell and almost certainly getting completely scrapped and remade half way through development. The final product looks like it was rushed together in 2 years or less.

It probably started out as something completely different and ended up being scrapped and restarted to chase the latest fad (looter shooter). Basically the same thing that happened with Blizzard with Titan.
 

J1M

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Messages
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ay hol' up
anthem doesn't have a way to communicate with other players?
https://www.reddit.com/r/AnthemTheG...ure_this_is_a_repost_but_if_you_need_a_short/
A law went into effect in the states that says if you release text chat in a program 2019 or later it has to be usable by blind people. Yes, blind people who can't even hope to play the video game must be given fully accessible communication options.

Expect to see more games drop chat and implement big buttons that say "enable accessible menus" on the main screen.
 

Gerrard

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11,927
CDProjekt made their own game engine and developed both Witcher 2 and Witcher 3 using it in less time than it took to create Anthem.

I REALLY hope at some time in the future we get the leaked story of development, it has gotta be interesting. This game screams of development hell and almost certainly getting completely scrapped and remade half way through development. The final product looks like it was rushed together in 2 years or less.
Lead dev died, Ben Irving came on board and ruined everything. Here's your story.
Apparently this fuck was also responsible for some terrible update in SWToR.
 

Heretic

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Oh noes, our customers are mean to us and toxxxic! We are not going to talk to them anymore!
cute-crying-baby-e1444723335206-800x617.jpg


http://archive.is/PX6z1
BioWare Community Manager Says Hostile Replies Make Developers Less Likely To Engage
nuky6cj67ohi4zmiv5fn.png

In a recent post on the Anthem subreddit, BioWare community manager Jesse Anderson explained that the increasing negativity has driven some of the game’s developers away from wanting to interact directly with players, demonstrating what a fraught relationship the constant feedback demands of Reddit can create.

“To start, things used to be a lot friendlier here for dev team members who normally don’t talk on social channels or forums,” Anderson wrote in response to a long post critical of BioWare’s dwindling communication. “They could answer questions, give information and know that they aren’t going to have people getting upset at them.”

He went on:

“Why would a dev team member take time away from working on the next update to post when they know it’s likely to be met with hostile replies, or they get flamed because [they] can’t answer other questions that players are asking? I don’t mind posting here when things aren’t so nice, but that’s because it’s my job. For the devs it isn’t their job, and I’d like to ask that people remember that when replying to them. When some people say ‘be nice or the devs will stop posting’ it’s 100% true.”

During the final stretch of Anthem’s development, some of its developers like lead producer Ben Irving and development manager Camden Eagar could frequently be found commenting directly in the subreddit, explaining mechanics and thought processes. In the last two weeks, as the negativity on the subreddit has hit an all-time high, posts by those same developers have become much rarer.

Anderson’s post struck a chord with a lot of commenters in the thread. “I love the updates, but THIS is the most important thing out of the entire post honestly,” read one of the most upvoted responses. “I’ve seen it with every game I’ve played. The devs jump in, have open discussions, share ideas and talk about areas of improvement etc. Then the toxicity of the community comes along and ruins everything.”

“I wish players would stop chasing away the devs,” it concluded.
 
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Vatnik Wumao
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For Bioware, "communicating" means them talking and the rest of us dumb plebeians swallowing whatever shit comes out of their mouths. Remember, plebs do not get to talk back to their masters.
 

Turbo normie

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Thanks for quoting cucktaku. I took a look at the comments and I want to kill myself now.

No fucking shit. Gamers can be some of the most entitled assholes ever. Why the hell would someone want to engage with spoiled shits who armchair game develop, as if content and features are as easy to make as a meme template.

These games cost hundreds of millions of dollars and involve hundreds of people. A chucklefuck who thinks they know everything can fuck off.

https://kotaku.com/bioware-community-manager-says-hostile-replies-make-dev-1833333974#
“Wahhhh i just wanna be an asshole they should take responsibility for their actions but i shouldn’t wahhh”

I wish people got banned from a game if they harassed the dev


It’s cute that you think the developer is the entity that decides release dates or microtransaction models and prices. I’ll give you a hint: it’s the publisher. It’s ALWAYS the publisher.

If you want to criticize something, it should be aimed at the people responsible. Almost every issue you’ve mentioned has nothing to do with BioWare.
 

Angthoron

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Messages
13,056
Ahhhhhh so the truth comes out, instead of making a game they spent their time posting on Reddit.
 

Rahdulan

Omnibus
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Messages
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Oh noes, our customers are mean to us and toxxxic! We are not going to talk to them anymore!

Good. Bioware devs are basically poster children for why community managers exist as the go-between for developers and customers to communicate.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Power-Scaling: Why Loot Doesn't Matter Anymore (Math)

TLDR
This post breaks down the logic of Patch 1.0.3's addition of Power Scaling, and why playing the game as intended will only result in diminishing returns, worthless inscriptions, useless components, and pointless weapons. In short, this post explores why 1.0.3 BROKE the game, and WHY you're playing it wrong. Every Legendary is now a pre-patch Level 1 Defender (but oh god so much worse).

Granted, this is a huge problem. I only decided to investigate the issue deeper when my legitimate, fully functional 1.0.2 Ranger Build broke. Read more about that here: https://www.reddit.com/r/AnthemTheG...wer_scaling_makes_epic_loot_counterintuitive/

>> Edits: Minor grammatically tuning.

>> Comments: Wow, 60 upvotes and Platinum in the 1st hour of posting. Thank you so much!

The Million Damage Ranger
Let me first demonstrate the fundamental flaw right out of the gate. If you have a Legendary Item, it does not matter which kind, you too can replicate these results with relative ease. This is because the item itself doesn't matter anymore, merely the Power Score.

> Note: This means the only viable inscription is the Javeline-Wide DMG% Bonus, as it plays extremely well with Power Scale equation.

> Note2: This is merely an example, this is not a post exploring why you should wear 1 Legendary piece and be a Glass Cannon. It's merely a demonstration of the system, please continue reading.


The Million Damage Ranger
How Power Scaling Works in 1.0.3
Some of you may have caught wind of the whole 'Remove your Support Item to do more Melee/Ultimate Damage' thing, well there is much more to it than you might think. To summarize, Combined Power Score is utterly pointless. The game instead just averages what you have physically equipped that isn't level one, and combines that number into a simple variable to select an arbitrary multiplier not related to your equipment.


Part One: How To Determine your Real Power Level

There are 45 Power Levels in the game. Simply accumulate the Average of all equipped parts to determine it.

> Example: The Million Damage Ranger has equipped one Power 75 item in the [Q] Gear Slot, and nothing else.

The game doesn't factor in Power 1 equipment at all, thus you do not factor them in at all.

This results in:

> (75+0)/1=Power Level 75


T0 further clarify, let me provide another example below:

Above Average Masterwork Ranger

> Example: In this instance we have a player with 2 Legendary weapons, 2 Legendary gear, 1 Epic support, and six components, one of which is Legendary and the rest are Masterwork. This creates a total sum of 718. But 718 is not the Power Level of this Ranger, it's actually 65.

> ((75*5)+(61*5)+(38))/11=Power Level 65

Technically 65.27, but you always round down.


Part Two: The Arbitrary Multiplier

Why do I call it the Arbitrary Multiplier? Because it has no relation to your Power Level or Power Score what so ever, it's merely a number on a chart. I specified before, there are 45 Relevant Power Levels. They range from 30 to 75. Technically those before 30 exist, but they factor so low it's no point mentioning them. The key though is level 31 is officially the starting point where your damage begins to scale beyond 1.0.

> The base Multiplier at level 30 for Damage is 7.466, this is equal to 1.0 on the Scale. All multipliers beyond there go up in very enigmatic increments all the way up to 75.

>Example: Power Level 35 = 1.414

You take that number multiply it by 7.466, this will be your base Melee Damage on a Ranger (I only tested Ranger).

>(7.466*1.414)=10.5569

10.5569 becomes the core number in which you multiply your Melee Damage, which for a Ranger is 100 at Level 1.

>(10.5569*100)=1055.69 (All Damage Rounds Up), so 1056.

Furthermore, your AoE Smash Attack is always +50% of that (something developers forgot about, I will explain later).

>1056+50%=1584 (Rounded Up)


What these examples demonstrate is simple. If you want to find out the Arbitrary Multiplier for your Power Level, simply remove all Damage Modifying gear and literally melee anything. As long as your melee is 100 at level 1 (just put on a Default set to double check), take the Melee Damage Number you see and divide by 100, then divide by 7.466, and you'll get your Arbitrary Power Level Multiplier.


The multiplier at Power Level 75 is 22.622, and this is what I want to highlight. This number is insanely high. So high in fact that it will inadvertently overwrite inscriptions. This means you're constantly playing a game of Diminishing Returns, and your true goal is to try and keep your Power Level higher than your Power Score.


Part Three: Placement Matters

In my example of the Million Damage Ranger seen above, I said that it didn't matter where you put the Legendary. This is not entirely accurate if you are truly trying to maximize your Damage Output. The reason why I expressed that Melee Damage was the easiest way to determine your Modifier is because it is immune to the principles of Gear Placement.

Another element influenced by your Power Level Multiplier is your Ultimate; however, where you equip your highest level item matters dramatically. Only equipping a Legendary Component or Legendary Ability (Q or E) will reduce your Ultimate's Potential damage by 10% or more. Your Ultimate's full Power Level Modification is unlocked only when a high Power Score Weapon is equipped.

A Legendary Component or Ability will provide you with optimal Melee Damage, but a Legendary Weapon will provide optimal Ultimate Damage and Melee Damage.

Due to the sheer disparity in damage caused by the Power Scaling mechanic, it is better to wear literally any weapon as long as it's your highest available of Power Score. Regardless of its Inscriptions. Ignorning your Higher Power Score weapon in favor of another that looks more powerful and offers better Inscriptions will reduce your overall damage output dramatically. Especially if your build relies heavily on Melee and Ultimate damage.

> The weapon and its Inscriptions no longer matter, it is just fundamentally more optimal to wear a total trash item that has a Power Score of 61 or 75, just because it can potentially double if not triple your overall Melee/Ultimate output due to the Arbitrary Modifier. Quite possibly making either of those vastly more powerful than any weapon or ability in your arsenal.


Part Four: Power Scaling makes Loot Counter-Intuitive

Epic loot is especially worthless as no matter what the Inscription offers, it's Power Score is 38. You will perform vastly better by brainlessly slapping on anything for its Power Score alone. If you are trying to Min-Max, the only Inscriptions you need to care about is +% DMG, as that scales beautifully with the modifier. This means that you should only worry about wearing anything that is of Highest Power Score and equip as little as possible in the process.

>Example: Player A has 11 Equips (75*1)+(61*6)+(38*4)/11=Power Level 53 (Power Score of 593)

But remove everything Epic, including your Support results in:

>Example: Player B has 7 Equips (75*)+(61*6)/7=Power Level 63 (Power Score of 441)

This means Player B, despite having a vastly lower Power Score, retains a higher Power Level and can dish out more Damage.

Just the simple process of removing any Epic Item will keep your Power Level significantly higher, where passively removing the Equipment can be more beneficial than any Inscription could every provide. As it allows you to exploit a Multiplier, rather than restrict yourself merely to Additive Damage.


Conclusion
This is why my Epic Ranger Build in 1.0.2, which stacked upwards of 250% Additive Blast Inscriptions via Epic Universal Components, literally was doing no Damage when 1.0.3 dropped despite having technically a crazy amount of Blast. The build was almost entirely Epic Gear, which set my Power Level to 43. The entire build was based on dishing damage with the Ultimate, but as of 1.0.3 - Ultimates now Scale off a Arbitrary Number and Gear Placement, rendering days of work and refinement useless. And all of the gear I spent dozens of hours crafting and rolling on, utterly useless. No additive damage inscriptions can ever compete with a passive damage multiplier running behind the scenes.


This isn't some sort of bug, this is a fundamental design flaw. At this point, the game is lying to you about how much damage you're doing. This is why there is no Stat Sheet, as there isn't anything worth recording. If you play the game thinking your Power Scores, Weapons, Abilities, Components, or the Inscriptions attached to them matter -- then you're doing yourself harm. Follow my advice. Realize that as of 1.0.3, none of it matters anymore and just become Melee & Ultimate spamming gods.

PS
Vanguard's Badge & Advanced Circuitry, Ranger's Legendary/Masterwork Component are broken and require fixing. The 30% Melee Damage modifier only applies to Ranger's Standard Melee attacks, but not their Area of Effect Smash Melee. Their Smash Melee does a natural 50% more Damage than their Standard Melee, and since Ranger's have a huge cool-down delay for Melee -- this means most Rangers worth their salt will be using Smash as often as possible. Rendering this Component worthless and broken.
 

J_C

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Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
I can't wait the first headline claiming "Bioware is dead". I was waiting for Anthem release just for this moment.
If only Apex wasn't around it would be even more glorious for EA
Apex won't be around much longer. It was briefly popular because it had no barrier to entry and was aggressively shilled, but now that the honeymoon's worn off it's hemorrhaging players. I'm basing this on Twitch viewers in the absence of other metrics, but since it's zoomerbait this is probably fairly accurate.
That's dumb.
 

Agame

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I can't wait the first headline claiming "Bioware is dead". I was waiting for Anthem release just for this moment.
If only Apex wasn't around it would be even more glorious for EA
Apex won't be around much longer. It was briefly popular because it had no barrier to entry and was aggressively shilled, but now that the honeymoon's worn off it's hemorrhaging players. I'm basing this on Twitch viewers in the absence of other metrics, but since it's zoomerbait this is probably fairly accurate.

OH GOD YES I WANT EA TO CRASH AND BURN!!
 

Seethe

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Messages
967
I can't wait the first headline claiming "Bioware is dead". I was waiting for Anthem release just for this moment.
If only Apex wasn't around it would be even more glorious for EA
Apex won't be around much longer. It was briefly popular because it had no barrier to entry and was aggressively shilled, but now that the honeymoon's worn off it's hemorrhaging players. I'm basing this on Twitch viewers in the absence of other metrics, but since it's zoomerbait this is probably fairly accurate.

Game fails because it has no solo mode. It's full of shills who defend Respawn, and say that having no solo mode is good, because it's a team game.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Messages
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
U gon get fired: http://blog.bioware.com/2019/03/19/anthem-post-launch-update/

Anthem – Post Launch Update
by Author -Casey Hudson
General Manager of BioWare

Whew. How’s everyone doing out there? It’s been a wild ride these last few weeks. On the one hand it’s been a rougher launch than expected. But then as I think back we also knew that big new online games tend to hit some kind of problem once they go live, so as much as we tested and prepared to make sure everything was ready, we were also ready for the possibility that unexpected issues might arise at launch. And we continue to be committed to responding to them.

We launched a game that so many of you tell us is really fun at its core, but we also had a degree of issues that did not reveal themselves until we were operating at the scale of millions of players. We were of course very disappointed about that, as were many of you. I’ve been in there playing with you since those early days (I’m a Ranger in Edmonton Oilers colors!) and it makes me sad to hear about any issues that would hold someone back from fully enjoying the game. I take that very personally, and it’s been our top priority to get improvements out to you in the fastest, safest way.


Combat Balance Meeting in Austin

In these first few weeks, our Live team has worked hard on that, delivering over 200 improvements through patches and live updates, across stability, loot and progression, customization, and more.

We also continue to listen to your feedback, with more improvements to endgame loot and progression, game flow, and stability and performance coming soon – so there’s a lot more work that we intend to do. This is all a learning experience for us, and as we work to make sure the game is improved and perfected, we can’t emphasize enough how much we appreciate you staying with us. Especially because the next stage is where things really get exciting.


The Story is Just Beginning

As we move through this most difficult period of launching a new game and IP, we are also working on the things that will really show what Anthem is capable of – a series of world events, new story content, and new features, that all build towards the Cataclysm later this spring.

But we understand there is skepticism out there. We hear the criticisms and doubts. But we’ll keep going anyway, working hard every day on Anthem – an ever-changing world, constantly improving and growing, and supported well into the future by our team of passionate developers.

With Anthem we’re trying something a little different than we’ve done before. And likewise our upcoming games will be different from Anthem. But with everything we do, we focus on staying true to our mission, creating worlds that inspire you to become the hero of your own story. So what’s most important to us is you, the players who have supported us in this journey. And we’re excited to prove that with Anthem, the best is yet to come.

Casey
 
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Infinitron

I post news
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Messages
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
What could have been - Anthem 76: https://www.pcgamer.com/anthems-original-story-sounded-amazing-and-much-more-interesting/

Anthem's original story sounded amazing (and much more interesting)
The Art of Anthem reveals a scrapped storyline that could have changed everything.

Unfortunately for EA and BioWare, Anthem has taken a real kicking since it launched at the end of February. Criticism over its plot, structure, and mission design arguably isn't the worst of it, though—the kicker is how much better the original story might have been.

As revealed in The Art of Anthem, the game’s premise was very different once upon a time. Early drafts featured a colony ship from Earth that had crash-landed in what was essentially the ‘Bermuda Triangle’ of space. “Survivors would have to settle, survive, and somehow thrive on a harsh and dangerous world,” writes the game’s art director, Derek Watts. “These ships were only in that first iteration. We took this quite far along before we switched to what Anthem would eventually become.” You can see it for yourself via a sample on Google’s online store.

What followed was a Robinson Crusoe-style struggle against the odds as your crew salvaged modules into houses, ramshackle bars, and outposts. An entire settlement is seen to have sprung up around the carcass of this ship in later concept art, and its citizens are dressed in what’s left of old Earth clothing. You can actually catch a glimpse of this version in a video BioWare shared during E3 2014, edited below by YouTube channel BSN: a broken-down hut made from NASA components is visible toward the end of that footage, and Anthem’s mushroom-shaped mountains loom large in the background of the scene.

That’s where your mech comes in. “At this point javelins were utilitarian suits for space travel that then had to be repurposed for battle on a dangerous world,” Watts says. Designed for use in the cold dark of space or manual labor, they were retrofitted for combat out of necessity. There seems to have been the possibility of upgrading your suit with scavenged ship parts, too. Watts says that “in the crash landing version of the game, what could you salvage from your ship to build your own suits? Here, we were exploring how much the pilot would be exposed. Would these suits be like tanks, or would you actually see the pilot?”

You probably wouldn’t have been the only ones who’d crash-landed on this planet, either: one painting depicts human survivors watching as a new ship tumbles to the ground, and it stands to reason that others would have arrived before you. Possible conflicts here make sense: as well as other human factions, it's possible you could've been pitted against aliens carving out their own kingdom, which would've taken it a little closer to the premise of Mass Effect Andromeda. There’d still have been room for long-form mystery in the Anthem of Creation nonetheless. Perhaps Anthem’s Shaper mythology could remain intact as well, resulting in a storyline you’d uncover as you travelled.

The whole thing is an idea some members of the studio seemed keen on. As alluded to above, it was “a unique vision that the art team was very passionate about. But in the end, we needed to adjust it to give the IP more depth and flexibility”, says Watts. At some point, Anthem became what it is now—games, of course, are always subject to extensive changes during development. Either way, it’s a shame this never came to fruition, and it might've imbued Anthem's world with more of a sense of adventure and discovery.

If you’d like to learn more about the behind the scenes on BioWare's latest, the Art of Anthem is available online in hardback or as an ebook. It’s definitely worthwhile if you’re a fan of art and the process behind games. You don’t have to shell out full retail price if you shop around, either: I got mine from Comixology for $20/£14.
 

CreamyBlood

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But we understand there is skepticism out there. We hear the criticisms and doubts. But we’ll keep going anyway, working hard every day on Anthem – an ever-changing world, constantly improving and growing, and supported well into the future by our team of passionate developers.
.

So it's a CAD $80.00 early access game with cool graphics and awesome jetpack movement?
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
What could have been - Anthem 76: https://www.pcgamer.com/anthems-original-story-sounded-amazing-and-much-more-interesting/

Anthem's original story sounded amazing (and much more interesting)
The Art of Anthem reveals a scrapped storyline that could have changed everything.

Unfortunately for EA and BioWare, Anthem has taken a real kicking since it launched at the end of February. Criticism over its plot, structure, and mission design arguably isn't the worst of it, though—the kicker is how much better the original story might have been.

As revealed in The Art of Anthem, the game’s premise was very different once upon a time. Early drafts featured a colony ship from Earth that had crash-landed in what was essentially the ‘Bermuda Triangle’ of space. “Survivors would have to settle, survive, and somehow thrive on a harsh and dangerous world,” writes the game’s art director, Derek Watts. “These ships were only in that first iteration. We took this quite far along before we switched to what Anthem would eventually become.” You can see it for yourself via a sample on Google’s online store.

What followed was a Robinson Crusoe-style struggle against the odds as your crew salvaged modules into houses, ramshackle bars, and outposts. An entire settlement is seen to have sprung up around the carcass of this ship in later concept art, and its citizens are dressed in what’s left of old Earth clothing. You can actually catch a glimpse of this version in a video BioWare shared during E3 2014, edited below by YouTube channel BSN: a broken-down hut made from NASA components is visible toward the end of that footage, and Anthem’s mushroom-shaped mountains loom large in the background of the scene.

That’s where your mech comes in. “At this point javelins were utilitarian suits for space travel that then had to be repurposed for battle on a dangerous world,” Watts says. Designed for use in the cold dark of space or manual labor, they were retrofitted for combat out of necessity. There seems to have been the possibility of upgrading your suit with scavenged ship parts, too. Watts says that “in the crash landing version of the game, what could you salvage from your ship to build your own suits? Here, we were exploring how much the pilot would be exposed. Would these suits be like tanks, or would you actually see the pilot?”

You probably wouldn’t have been the only ones who’d crash-landed on this planet, either: one painting depicts human survivors watching as a new ship tumbles to the ground, and it stands to reason that others would have arrived before you. Possible conflicts here make sense: as well as other human factions, it's possible you could've been pitted against aliens carving out their own kingdom, which would've taken it a little closer to the premise of Mass Effect Andromeda. There’d still have been room for long-form mystery in the Anthem of Creation nonetheless. Perhaps Anthem’s Shaper mythology could remain intact as well, resulting in a storyline you’d uncover as you travelled.

The whole thing is an idea some members of the studio seemed keen on. As alluded to above, it was “a unique vision that the art team was very passionate about. But in the end, we needed to adjust it to give the IP more depth and flexibility”, says Watts. At some point, Anthem became what it is now—games, of course, are always subject to extensive changes during development. Either way, it’s a shame this never came to fruition, and it might've imbued Anthem's world with more of a sense of adventure and discovery.

If you’d like to learn more about the behind the scenes on BioWare's latest, the Art of Anthem is available online in hardback or as an ebook. It’s definitely worthwhile if you’re a fan of art and the process behind games. You don’t have to shell out full retail price if you shop around, either: I got mine from Comixology for $20/£14.

I wonder if it was originally intended to take place in the Mass Effect universe given this description?
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,616
Since the iron man flying is the only thing people like about this game, does anyone have recommendations for other products that do something similar?
 
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