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KickStarter Apocalypse Now RPG by Monty Markland - terminated with extreme prejudice!

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by LESS T_T, Jan 25, 2017.

  1. Beastro Arcane

    Beastro
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    It's amusing going from reading page after page of Grimoire drama with Cleve butting heads with anyone who insulted him to this thread with a dev who is both actively replying to people while navigating the jabs and insults like a sane person.
     
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  2. Blaine Cis-Het Oppressor Patron

    Blaine
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    Grab the Codex by the pussy
    It's like I was telling the dudes in the Shoutbox: Mustawd is a liberal, and liberals were unstable even before Trump was elected.

    Apart from his political and genetic disabilities (he's also half-Hispanic), he's a pretty good guy in general. Here's hoping he returns to subsequently leave the Codex forever a second and possibly even a third time, as is tradition.
     
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  3. MLMarkland Arcane Developer

    MLMarkland
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    Should I Cleve-LARP for a day here?
     
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  4. PanteraNera Cipher

    PanteraNera
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    I think it's the smartest thing to do.

    How much creative freedom do you guys have? Talking bout money I think it's one of the biggest factor that gets money wasted in games. If their needs to be approval about certain parts of the game, how far are these things worked out pre-production?

    Was very interesting to read, thanks for that, now I understand it better.

    Why do you want to be not credited in these cases?


    I do not belief that their is "a truth". I know only one thing for sure, that I do not know anything for sure. Was history like it's written in the books? Even in the last 100 years? What news are fake news and what news are true news? My approach is to be as broad informed as I can possible be, and information is pretty much endless in the internet.

    Only the future will tell if you really will accomplish what you are talking about. So if someone would call me in regards to our conversation a fool, I can not prove him wrong. It is a possible truth. I would love to have a solution for that, because I do belief if people belief in you, they would be willing to raise the money you need to make AN happen. For me your doing a great job in openly answering every question, I am pleasantly surprised. Others take it as salesman phrases, can't prove them wrong, I can only say that my guts tell me otherwise, but in an argument that has not a lot value for a rational person. Also to pull something of like your a planing to do, its damn handy to have someone who is a good salesman ;).

    You can probably understand and/or agree that many people do not belief in indie dev's anymore. One can always argue that all you said and will be saying are lies and it's hard to prove otherwise.

    I wouldn't say I trust you but that I have chosen to belief you, because the answers you are giving make sense and are intelligent and I want a game like AN become reality.

    I think with indies the biggest problem is, that they raise some money and people expect them to do marvels with the limited resources they have. Most devs are in my opinion stupid in that regards, because they are building up a bubble instead of saying "Hey great we raised a million dollar, from that money we can make a decent game, to make a great game, the game we all dream of, we need at least two more millions". Maybe if they were honest about it, they wouldn't raise the million in the first place. But that way people wouldn't be butt hurt and the devs wouldn't lose their credibility at least in my eyes. People that pledged and were expecting the marvel from the devs aren't less stupid.
    Most people seem to not understand how money works, it's the same people that are jealous if their boss is driving a sport car.

    What you propose is entirely different from that and I am puzzled that you are getting negativ feedback in this very thread, in regard of "the money".

    People may hate publishers, and rightly do so, as they may often be in the way of the gamers, as in doing games that sell, instead of games that are good (I do not blame them, after all its how our would works, profit!). But hey, I you DO NOT support the indies, with MONEY, how do you expect them to make the game you truly want.

    It's a self-fulfilling-prophecy.



    Yeah, in Europe unconditional basic income is getting more and more a thing that might become true. I am curious how this will work out. Especially for game developers. On the other hand I belief a lot of people are fans of post apocalyptic games/movies as it is a very possible outcome to were the world is heading towards (quantum field of possibilities). Would be a shame.

    Your welcome :).
    Also have others of the team invested their personal money into the game? If so how much in total?

    Honestly in my humble opinion it's hard to tell how or even if it would sell well, as the picture of the game you have drawn so far, sounds more like art / something vastly different to what is on the market. Could be that people really want stupid games and would hate the game for uhm needing a brain to enjoy. "Oldschool RPG" fans might not be interested in it as it's FPS and has shooter elements. FPS shooter fans might not be interested as the pacing is to slow, or just not enough shooting. Realism-fans might be a audience that actually might be pretty satisfied.

    That being said, I really wish you raise the money, make the game you talk about and that it sells well, ultimately influencing the gaming industry to evolve. But if I say it like that, damn that sound BIG doesn't it :)?

    Would be way to early on that point to quit ;).
     
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  5. Bester ⚰️☠️⚱️ Patron Vatnik

    Bester
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    This is either heresy or madness. With such a distorted POV, your game is doomed.
     
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  6. MLMarkland Arcane Developer

    MLMarkland
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    Read any good book. Watch any movie with great dialog.

    Return and ponder the meaning of apostasy.
     
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  7. Bester ⚰️☠️⚱️ Patron Vatnik

    Bester
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    I've seen ~3000 movies, I think I'm good. I'd rather go play VTMB one more time.
     
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  8. majamaja Augur

    majamaja
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    Comparing video game writing to book writing is part of the problem, which is why I didn't really care that much about Planescape's writing (the setting/aesthetic, on the other hand, is what I'd argue really makes it stand out.) Movies, and again I'm only talking about 'talkies', are a much better comparison because like games they juggle a number of priorities, i.e. visuals, writing, sound, and I agree with you that most videogames have their priorities out of whack in ranking things like graphixxx (distinct from visuals) far too highly, and when they value writing they often throw large, finely-wrought blocks of text at you as if what is good for a novel is good for a videogame. The writing in Wizardries, Betrayal at Krondor, and yes, Grimoire, are I what I consider the peak of the craft so far in that they ultimately underpin and not overshadow the gameplay which is priority number one. Fallout 1 is a special case as I think it had a perfectly appropriate writing style reinforcing the sparseness of the world (like The Road) but that will never display outright virtuousity like the talkier high fantasy settings can.

    Anyway, I'm going to stop LARPing Lyric Suite and hope that he comes to spice up the thread.

    Edit: also special shoutout to the writing in Alpha Centauri, which while extremely limited was pitch perfect.
     
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  9. MLMarkland Arcane Developer

    MLMarkland
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    I agree and think you are correct, Lyric Suite.

    Though I mainly meant: "Compare the bookish parts of video games to great books and compare video game dialog to great movie dialog."

    Linear narratives have a 4,500 year head start. Movies have a half-century head start (more really if you consider plays as well).
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
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  10. Zombra An iron rock in the river of blood and evil Patron

    Zombra
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    Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    Bullshit. FTL. Chaos Reborn. This is the Police. Gangs of Deadsville. CONSORTIUM. Antharion. Legend of Dungeon. Shadowrun Returns.
     
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  11. Modron Arcane

    Modron
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    Is Antharion actually good it's been on my wishlist forever but I never remember why when looking at the steampage.
     
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  12. Circuit Self-Ejected

    Self-Ejected
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    ♫...This is the end
    Beautiful friend
    This is the end
    Of RPG's, the end...♫
     
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  13. Zombra An iron rock in the river of blood and evil Patron

    Zombra
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    Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    Not perfect, but incline.
     
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  14. boot Savant

    boot
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    I like some of those games. Actually plan to play FTL a bit later.

    They are exceptions. Not sure they would have died without kickstarter.
     
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  15. Orobis Arcane Sychophantic Noob

    Orobis
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    I love the smell of butthurt meltdowns in the morning.
     
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  16. Zombra An iron rock in the river of blood and evil Patron

    Zombra
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    Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    You said: "If you crowdfund, your project must be worthless." I provided a dozen counterexamples off the top of my head. Your thesis is foolish and wrong. If you want to backpedal it to "sometimes kickstarters don't work out", we'll all agree with you, but what would be the point in saying that? And what's the point in stating "My observation is true, except when it isn't"?

     
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  17. Kev Inkline Arcane Patron

    Kev Inkline
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    A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    I think it's interesting that procedurally generated storytelling of Dwarf Fortress (and sometimes Rimworld) can produce better stories than real human video game writers.
     
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  18. MLMarkland Arcane Developer

    MLMarkland
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    1,000,000 monkeys with typewriters.

    Unlimited so long as we are faithful to Mister Coppola's vision, Heart of Darkness and Homer's The Odyssey.

    Because the projects were terrible and they needed someone to help them in exchange for money. But that doesn't mean I want to be associated with them.

    I don't believe in indie devs either. I've spent a significant part of the past ten years brute forcing solutions to their lies so that the customers are not defrauded.

    Legacy publishers are even worse, but their fraud, dishonesty and propaganda are both more concealed and more brazen.

    Indie devs at least have passion. Legacy media companies only have incompetence and shame. I don't believe in either system though.

    Our system is different.

    We're transparent about the real budget.

    We don't charge people 30 days in; we charge when we have the whole budget.

    I don't have a company that fails if the world doesn't want an Apocalypse Now video game adaptation.

    We don't have to lay anyone off.

    Backers will never get burned.

    It's an entirely different algorithm than the old, terrible model that replaced the older more terrible model.

    Some might say meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

    I say, our platform is a populist greenlighting system that removes all control from the hands of "elitists" and puts it in the hands of individual people.

    We built a crowdfunding platform with unique features. Apocalypse Now is a great game idea.

    I think the game design document proves that.

    But Apocalypse Now is not the only IP we've linked with the platform.

    It's simply the only IP we've publicly announced in connection with the platform.

    And I think it's the most artistically exciting project we've got going right now.

    We'll see over the course of a year.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
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  19. Kev Inkline Arcane Patron

    Kev Inkline
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    A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    You know, this wasn't a jab at human writers. Using that old metaphor, I would say both aforementioned games have exceptionally good typewriters which are loaded up with pieces and bits of story.
     
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  20. MLMarkland Arcane Developer

    MLMarkland
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    I was talking about the incompetent human writers not the computers.
     
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  21. PanteraNera Cipher

    PanteraNera
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    But who decides if your faithful or not?
    The question I asked is related to finances/potential risks, as far as I understand the budget of the project is pretty tight.
    So if you create some parts (i.e. spending money) in the game that you think is faithful but for example not to Mr. Coppola (he does not approve), what happens?

    Also a year is a long time, people can die, lose their jobs, getting maried or getting divorced, i.e. their financial situation may have changed. They might not have the money they pledged with, to put a number out of my ass, lets say that 10% withdraw their pledge when you reached the goal of 5.9 mil $ that would be 590.000 $ less. What happens in this case?

    Another situation would be, you get funded, you do your thing, in the end (i.e. money runs out) you realize that ANRPG is faithful but a boring game, or a great game but unfaithful, in either cases you said you would not release it. But what happens to the money that got invested by the "crowd"? Is it gone?

    also is this
    this:
    https://apocalypsenow.com/updates/update-7-malibu-road-pictures-llc-commits
    Malibu Road Pictures LLC commits $600,000 to Apocalypse Now game over three year and a half year development cycle
    ?

    100% agree.

    So obviously you are or think you are something new, neither a indie dev nor involved in traditional publishing. The nay-sayers here, either think your an indie as anyone else or your the big bad wolf. (Btw I would be fucking pissed of by that, if I was you, or more correctly in your position)
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2017
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  22. Background Character Savant

    Background Character
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    Should I do acid while playing this game for a better experience?

    Show Spoiler
    If the game ever comes out
     
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  23. MLMarkland Arcane Developer

    MLMarkland
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    The individual members of the audience.

    It's really not. The only question is whether the world wants an Apocalypse Now video game adaptation. If the answer is yes, the budget will be plentiful.

    RE the $ question -- That figure does not include what has been spent prior by me or other principals (including American Zoetrope), but that's a part of the total commitment.

    If 10% of Backers cancelled a year from now we would look to shore that up with 1000 different and unique options of financing. If we were unable to secure an appropriate backstop, the highest paid developers on the team would take a 15% haircut and the mid-level paid developers on the team would take a 5% haircut (or whatever the math works out to be). Or we would make the game 10% smaller. Or we would license less popular music tracks from the 1960s. Or probably more accurately a combination of all of the above and more. There's countless ways to address that issue -- so long as you stay objective.

    What we raise from the crowd and what we raise privately or via legacy models are two very different sets of money. Crowd money gets spent last. Which means it gets spent like mezzanine financing. We'll know if the game is going to be good or bad before we collect the pledges. If it's going to be bad, we won't collect the pledges.

    We do not need the pledges. We don't need to make the game.

    We want the pledges to democratize the quality control. We want to make the game because it is cool.

    But there's no big game publisher about to go bankrupt if we don't make quarterly numbers. Our system is a fundamental break from old ways of thinking.

    The crowd will not fund the game if it isn't going to be good (they also won't fund the game if it is going to be good but too few people want it).

    I'm not new. The algorithm represented by the website is new. The innovation is the systemic change to the method of finance made possible by modern technologies.

    We built a robot that is good at measuring absolute audience interest over long time frames while minimizing the risk to the individual audience members (while also working on a game behind the scenes).

    Edit: Think about the cost of buying a game or going to the movie theatre the "old way" -- the audience risk is maximized. You have no idea what's inside the box or on the screen. At best you have what some critics told you, if you are an early adopted you don't even have word of mouth.

    The old way is the riskiest way for the individual customer. It doesn't feel risky because everyone is used to it. But it is fundamentally the riskiest way because you spend the most money when you have the least knowledge about the outcomes.

    [If I cared what people thought about me I wouldn't speak to Breitbart about the game or post on RPGCodex or say the things I do and I also would be the wrong person to direct a video game adaptation of a classic motion picture]
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2017
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  24. Siveon Bot

    Siveon
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    Shadorwun: Hong Kong
    Legend of Dungeon is not good.
     
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  25. Circuit Self-Ejected

    Self-Ejected
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    So the game'll be set in the 19th century Congo with Polyphemus as the antagonist?
     
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