Are Thief 3's Shalebridge Cradle and VTMB's Ocean House levels overrated?

[Manjuice Nutella]

Maybe it's a good horror mission, sure, okay. I don't care about horror and am not going to debate it on those grounds. Maybe it is, that's fine by me.

I didn't like the Cradle as well, it is far from being trash like Thieve's Guild but it was very meh in terms of architecture and enemy placement. The level suffers alot from the fetch quest design with plenty of backtracking and the asylum isn't as iconic as the Constantine Mansion on Thief 1.

For me it's extremely iconic, especially the White Hall and the proximity-based flickering lights. Bonus point for all this "environmental storytelling", like patients' cells and that chair faced in the direction of Staff Tower.

In terms of horror, I was bored half way through after I discovered I could backstab the patients and discovered how easy it was to avoid the staff so I kept backtracking through a mostly empty asylum doing chores to a spirit. It would be a far more interesting place if the level actually took the whole "The Cradle wants your soul." thing seriously in terms of gameplay.

Iono, no point in shoving the subtlety in player's face for me. But no way I'm getting anywhere near those things. Even after all those years I am still extremely uncomfortable actually running out loud in Outer Cradle.

There were other levels like the Bonehoard and the Return to the Cathedral on Thief 1 that were more frightening

What was frightening about the Bonehoard? Aside from that Haunt spawning I guess.

 

[Wunderbar]

BTW there was a massive Thief 3 overhaul mod (Thief 3 Gold i think?) that stitches all levels inside missions together - no more mid-mission loads.
Anyone tried it?

 

[Manjuice Nutella]

BTW there was a massive Thief 3 overhaul mod (Thief 3 Gold i think?) that stitches all levels inside missions together - no more mid-mission loads.
Anyone tried it?

Yeah, as mentioned, the levels get much more "Thiefy", and suddenly you appreciate the newly-cohesive levels a lot more. Sometimes you're stuck with that retarded long corridor that was clearly meant for it (though it actually works even better in the Cradle), but other levels are seamless such as Kurshok Citadel or Keeper Compound.

Also notable are AI enhancements in various difficulty settings, that makes original Expert AI look like Oblivion NPCs, it's that tough (and well done in terms of gameplay mechanics/changes done to footsteps etc).

 

[Wunderbar]

Yeah, as mentioned, the levels get much more "Thiefy", and suddenly you appreciate the newly-cohesive levels a lot more. Sometimes you're stuck with that retarded long corridor that was clearly meant for it (though it actually works even better in the Cradle), but other levels are seamless such as Kurshok Citadel or Keeper Compound.

Also notable are AI enhancements in various difficulty settings, that makes original Expert AI look like Oblivion NPCs, it's that tough (and well done in terms of gameplay mechanics/changes done to footsteps etc).

what about bugs, pathfinding, stability?

 

[TheImplodingVoice]

This is an uncommon opinion, but VTM:B never managed to scare me. I love it for the role-playing, quest design and the atmosphere, but not for anything too scary.

Same. Also I had just played Thief: Deadly Shadows and as nice as Ocean House is, it's no Shalebridge Cradle.

Shalebridge Cradle is incredibly overrated and actually a meh level that drags on for way too long (one fetch quest, okay, but three of them in a row? It's like Brother Murus' ghost in Return to the Cathedral all over again).

Well it scared the bejeezus out of me.

Thief 3 does have really good art direction,the game is very atmospheric. It is shame that it got fucked by console peasantry.

 

[Manjuice Nutella]

what about bugs, pathfinding, stability?

Yup, all of it. You won't of course get an entirely different game mechanics wise, but was could be fixed, was.

Sneaky Upgrade: Unofficial patch for Thief 3

Original game bugs and issues that have been fixed or improved:

• New missions and restarted missions will use your chosen difficulty instead of Normal/Easy
• The City sections are now played on your chosen difficulty instead of always being on Normal
• Frame rate and refresh rate limiting fixes broken lockpicking, ladder climbing and wall flattening
• Some speed-up of level loading, especially with vsync on
• Fix for the desktop being visible during level loading on Vista and up
• The game will no longer crash when binding an analogue controller through the keybinds screen
• Fix for controller axes sometimes being set up reverted
• Fix for a crash that could happen when using the game's multisampling option
• Fix for the mouse freezing or becoming invisible when using large font size settings in Windows
• Fix for the mouse cursor not being captured on Windows 10
• Improved compatibility with Windows 10 by installing the d3d8to9 wrapper DLL from ReShade

Game improvements:

• All resolutions reported by the system, plus an optional custom display mode, are available from the options screen. The aspect ratio is shown as well
• In widescreen the horizontal view is extended, instead of cropping off the top and bottom
• The field-of-view can be specified by the user. The setting will work with both the original game and fanmissions, with existing savegames and with missions which use scripted FOV changes. FOV adjustment includes the mechanical eye and bow zoom
• The HUD and menus are shown correctly, regardless of resolution and aspect ratio. In 3-monitor modes, the HUD can be constricted to the center monitor
• The main menu and loading screens are shown correctly, at 4:3 aspect. The proper movies, which are letterboxed, are allowed to crop to fit the monitor (up to 16:9)
• Take screenshots with descriptive file names, and automatically with savegames
• XBox360-type gamepads are working, the triggers are mapped to buttons. Support for up to 16 gamepad buttons using modifiers. Mouse and escape key emulation
• Run the game on a display other than the primary
• Multiple quick saves, quick load the most recent save

As an FM loader, the emphasis is on ease of use and reliability:

• Easy to set up – besides this patch there is nothing to install or configure
• The contents of your game installation folder are never changed. (GarrettLoader has a habit of messing up your installation)
• Works even if the game is installed in Program Files
• Automatically installs custom conversations. (Used in the FM All the World's a Stage)
• Fixes for crash on save and crash on exit in certain FMs, and for the mechanical eye zoom not working in many FMs
• Fix for the in-game loot list showing wrong values and total in certain FMs
• Fix for an original issue which could cause objectives and sounds to start disappearing after some time
• The FMSel supplied with the installer is slightly improved over the NewDark version
• Works with NewDarkLoader and AngelLoader too

Additionally some optional tweaks have been incorporated:

• Mirror and/or scale down the main HUD
• Improved loading screen text: Scale it down, improve formatting
• Minor HUD and GUI tweaks: Remove loading screen tips, mechanical eye overlay, main menu version text, "Nothing" texts, loot percentage, purple fog, 'bouncing arrows', junk item flashing and the lockpicking HUD
• Always show the healthbar
• Turn the short intro movies off, or replace them with the game's trailer
• Alternative background modes for the readable/map and pause screens
• Better mouse response and removed motion blur, adjust mouse sensitivity
• More realistic physics, gravity multiplier
• Scale the difficulty up or down. (Can be set to zero for a 'notarget' cheat)
• Disable auto-raising of the blackjack and dagger
• Reduce or remove headbobbing
• No switch to third person in death
• Classic speed (walk by default, run qualifier) and a speed multiplier
• Decrease or increase the ambient fog or ambient light in any level
• Bright mouse cursor
• Turn down the volume of cutscenes and other videos
• Borderless windowed mode
• End a mission by pressing Shift+Ctrl+Alt+End (see the SU readme for caveats)

 

[JarlFrank]

And then of course you have the Cradle, which for many people is the best Thief level of all time.

It's also such a highlight mainly because of how well it fits in the larger context of the game

It really doesn't. There is no other level that feels as out of place as the Cradle, with its 19th century style sadistic mental asylum doctor readables and all that. It feels like a generic haunted asylum taken from some other game and transplanted into the Thief setting, where it doesn't fit that well.

And people who claim it's the best Thief level of all time don't understand Thief levels.

The best horror level of all time? Ok maybe. The best Thief level? Definitely not.

 

[JarlFrank]

I didn't like the Cradle as well, it is far from being trash like Thieve's Guild

Thieves' Guild is actually a pretty good level and gets more hate than it deserves.

 

[Zombra]

It would be a far more interesting place if the level actually took the whole "The Cradle wants your soul." thing seriously in terms of gameplay.

What would that actually look like? Jumping over soul snakes? I thought that aspect was perfect. You didn't even realize what was happening until Laurel advised you later on, you've been here too long, my soul is finally free but now yours is trapped. Another beautifully subtle twist. I love how this game doesn't hang a lot of signposts.

 

[DalekFlay]

In my opinion, it's the gold standard for hybrid games, games that offer plenty of options and approaches. Of course, I'm talking gameplay wise, exclusively. It was an improvement over Human Revolution. Unfortunately it wasn't an immersive sim.

Other than an over-reliance on air-ducts I'm on record as liking that game quite a lot. Even Invisible War is playable, but extremely compromised. These types of games are rare.

 

[Beastro]

I didn't like the Cradle as well, it is far from being trash like Thieve's Guild

Thieves' Guild is actually a pretty good level and gets more hate than it deserves.

My only issue with it are the choke points guarded by 3 or more npcs who don't move in very open rooms. There's at least one point like that that I could see being a nightmare for ghosters even with noisemaker arrows.

 

[Manjuice Nutella]

Some other fun things and little details I enjoyed about Thief 3:

- You can influence the voting council in Keeper Compound mission by blackjacking the voters out The decision influences some additional guard placement & loot being placed under extra security I believe.

- The maps were smaller, but I felt there is a higher density of notes, diaries etc. Combined with some nice environmental storytelling (Cradle, backstory regarding the 3 unique loot pieces in missions etc) I got a nice kick out of the lore.

- If you don't steal Widow Moira's inheritance and bring her that wine (random clutter) her servants refuse to bring, she'll send an expensive wine loot and a letter of gratitude to Garrett's apartment (or hired thugs in the reverse case).

- Perhaps the only game I've played where loading screen tooltips were worth reading ("If thou hast eyes to see the glory of the Builder, but do not, then pluck them out.")

- After we activate all those factions, in the last day of the game they're all randomly fighting on the streets like something out of Postal 2. The statues were the most lulzy ones.

- Oil Flask shenanigans being the most lol addition:

 

[Child of Malkav]

Some other fun things and little details I enjoyed about Thief 3:

- You can influence the voting council in Keeper Compound mission by blackjacking the voters out The decision influences some additional guard placement & loot being placed under extra security I believe.

- The maps were smaller, but I felt there is a higher density of notes, diaries etc. Combined with some nice environmental storytelling (Cradle, backstory regarding the 3 unique loot pieces in missions etc) I got a nice kick out of the lore.

- If you don't steal Widow Moira's inheritance and bring her that wine (random clutter) her servants refuse to bring, she'll send an expensive wine loot and a letter of gratitude to Garrett's apartment (or hired thugs in the reverse case).

- Perhaps the only game I've played where loading screen tooltips were worth reading ("If thou hast eyes to see the glory of the Builder, but do not, then pluck them out.")

- After we activate all those factions, in the last day of the game they're all randomly fighting on the streets like something out of Postal 2. The statues were the most lulzy ones.

- Oil Flask shenanigans being the most lol addition:

I had no idea about 1, 3 and 5. Damn, I have to reinstall this game.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

The problem with Moira's inheritance is that if you're playing on Expert you must steal it to meet the 90% loot objective requirement.

 

[Manjuice Nutella]

The problem with Moira's inheritance is that if you're playing on Expert you must steal it to meet the 90% loot objective requirement.

Sneaky Upgrade (or Thief 3 Gold, which is included within as well) fixes that.

 

[DalekFlay]

- Oil Flask shenanigans being the most lol addition:

That framerate

 

[Nano]

The loot requirements in Thief DS are in general annoying. I never had trouble finding the required loot in Thief 1 & 2 (except for The Haunted Cathedral), but in Thief DS finding enough of the loot on Expert difficulty was hard in almost all of the levels.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

The loot requirements in Thief DS are in general annoying. I never had trouble finding the required loot in Thief 1 & 2 (except for The Haunted Cathedral), but in Thief DS finding enough of the loot on Expert difficulty was hard in almost all of the levels.

Maybe you're not an expert and should lower the difficulty

 

[Curratum]

Never played VTMB but Cradle is decidedly overrated.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

The problem with Moira's inheritance is that if you're playing on Expert you must steal it to meet the 90% loot objective requirement.

Sneaky Upgrade (or Thief 3 Gold, which is included within as well) fixes that.

Sadly the upgrade also messes with other things needlessly, so it will be a long time until I'll think of using it.

 

[Zombra]

The loot requirements in Thief DS are in general annoying. I never had trouble finding the required loot in Thief 1 & 2 (except for The Haunted Cathedral), but in Thief DS finding enough of the loot on Expert difficulty was hard in almost all of the levels.

Agree. Higher enemy sensitivity is great - "pixel hunting" is not. More than once I would clear out a level, blackjacking everything in sight, then walk back and forth several times trying to find that last buried coin. Reducing a dramatic atmosphere into a gamey chore.

 

[Multidirectional]

That's why I didn't bother with Expert in Thief 3 as it doesn't add any additional objectives anyway. Just being forced to find all loot is boring. Gonna stick with Hard for next run too.

 

[DalekFlay]

Yeah I believe I always played Thief 3 on hard, not expert. I only use the absolute highest difficulty when it adds new content/objectives, like I believe Thief 1 and 2 usually did. Usually I play games on one notch above normal.

 

[Darth Slaughter]

The problem with Moira's inheritance is that if you're playing on Expert you must steal it to meet the 90% loot objective requirement.

Sneaky Upgrade (or Thief 3 Gold, which is included within as well) fixes that.

Sadly the upgrade also messes with other things needlessly, so it will be a long time until I'll think of using it.

Such as what? I managed to play it from start to finish without any problems.

 

[toro]