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KickStarter ATOM RPG - Wasteland Soviet style! - now with Dead City update

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by Atomboy, Oct 1, 2016.

?

Will you back?

Poll closed Nov 28, 2017.
  1. I will consider it!

    39 vote(s)
    54.9%
  2. No! I would never!..

    9 vote(s)
    12.7%
  3. kingcomrade

    23 vote(s)
    32.4%
  1. Heretic Erudite

    Heretic
    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2015
    Messages:
    832
    Melee, pistols and automatic weapons should NOT be balanced to be equally viable, just like they are not in real life encounters.
     
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  2. Van-d-all Learned

    Van-d-all
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    Silesia Superior
    Melee weapons should be a dire alternative to not having/using ammo. Especially as ammo scarcity is actually nicely balanced early game, but as in Ressurection 1.5 it becomes a non issue at some point, which is sad IMO.
     
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  3. Vrab Educated

    Vrab
    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2017
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    If melee is meant to be a backup, then make it a backup. And even if not, condense the melee part of the tree, it's bloated way beyond reasonable.

    On a related note, did you think of an ability that would make nearby enemies receive massive penalty to hit with firearms? On top of the penalty for shooting from close that some weapons get by default. It would seem believable that if there's a knife or chainsaw wielding opponent a meter or two away, aiming would be more difficult. To somewhat mitigate the danger of burst at point blank. It could replace the largely useless dodge bonus. I expect it would also make having a melee follower like Alexander more meaningful, also the dog if you throw an equivalent in somewhere there too. And make fights more tactical beyond forming a firing line.
     
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  4. Van-d-all Learned

    Van-d-all
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    Actually all ranged weapons should get a penalty if there's an enemy in a nearby hex. You're not playing a grammaton cleric. Even AD&D has this, and it's far from even trying to be realistic.
     
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  5. Vrab Educated

    Vrab
    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2017
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    Sure, but this is somewhat present with weapon specific penalties, although I'm not sure how effective they are since I haven't used auto weapons or rifles yet. Maybe it needs to increase?

    I was thinking of someone actively engaging in hand to hand combat and causing additional difficulty. Say ability description that would say "All enemies in a 2 (or 1 or howmuch) tile radius have their chance to hit anything with firearms halved."
     
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  6. panda Learned

    panda
    Joined:
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    Can't agree more. I scratch my head while reading all those "melee underpowered" posts. The only way you are going to succeed with a knife against a machinegunner is surprise attack.
    Thus sneak + melee should be viable endgame option, not pure melee.

    I think melee perk to 100% dodge first bullet shot from within 2-3 tiles would be perfect fit.
     
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  7. Van-d-all Learned

    Van-d-all
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    Perk sounds like a band aid, and what I mean is an across the board mechanic that makes all ranged weapon users want to maintain distance while making HtH actually viable in specific situations. Pair it with AP cost to switch weapons and I might even consider a CQB perk lowering that penalty on ranged weapons reasonable.
     
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  8. krilcebre Novice

    krilcebre
    Joined:
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    If so, why would you even have a melee skill and perk tree? You could just as well remove those, along with pistols and also shields,since they aren't useful later in the game anyway, meaning you pretty much lost all those points you hsve been investing for 10-15 levels, or even more. This is a game, not a real life simulator. A grenade in the face should be more powerful than a bullet, but it doesn't work that way in the game. Why? Because balance. So then why not balance everything and make more viable builds instead of having to finish a game using the same old ar or rifle build every time. Nobody sane would invest points into skills and perks that are for dire need only, meaning you don't need them anyway.
     
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  9. Van-d-all Learned

    Van-d-all
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    Because it gives build possibilities, and playing with various builds is largely what makes cRPG replayability fun. All the while keeping the melee weapons situational and befitting the dog eat dog economy of post apocalyptic survival game.
     
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  10. panda Learned

    panda
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    Dec 31, 2014
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    But why would you get that super penalty against someome who can't dodge(another "shooter" who got close), or, in other words: why super martial artist would get same % as clumsy fatass?
    It is a game after all, not IRL, so i think player should be rewarded for his skill choices in a sensible manner.
     
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  11. Van-d-all Learned

    Van-d-all
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    Because of practical implementation. General mechanic applies to all NPCs automatically, while perks would only apply to the player, and maybe some few NPCs that the devs would edit, so effectively the first makes an actual difference to combat system, while the other one doesn't. I find it arguably essential for combat mechanics in a post apo game to treat PCs equally to NPCs because it makes defeating them a lot more enjoyable than squashing 10:1 shit mobs in a (power) fantasy.
     
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  12. krilcebre Novice

    krilcebre
    Joined:
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    How the fuck does less viable options give more build possibilities? Discussion here is that real life shouldnt interfere with gameplay mechanics balance because it streamlines the players into using only one or two weapon types, because they are the only viable options, meaning there is no reason to spec for worse options because you'll quit halfway through when you realize you are getting raped by a single enemy, not to mention they usually come in large groups. You just confimed my point othat rpgs should give players more options to play and finish a game, not less, especially since all the mentioned weapon types are already in the game, so its just a matter of bringing underpowered ahit up to a playable level in some way.
     
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  13. panda Learned

    panda
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    Ehm, what? Why would game generate a lvl 10 rifleman NPC without proper amount of "shooting" perks?

    Though that is not what i was curious about in initial question, really. Just was interested about details of your global penalty idea. Like, how it suppose to work for different combat roles, e.g. "clumsy fatass" vs martial artist.
     
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  14. Van-d-all Learned

    Van-d-all
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    LOL of course they should. They just shouldn't make them in a shitty fantasy way where characters can bite bullets for the sake of viability because it completely kills the setting. If I wanted to play a fucking He-Man I'd go for AD&D.

    Already answered, read the whole sentence maybe?
    Handicrafted or generated, it still requires additional implementation in NPC code.

    Base stats like Dex and Melee skill already cover that. Besides its pure theorycrafting, I doubt the combat system is getting anything beyond a Perk facelift.
     
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  15. panda Learned

    panda
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    Uhm, no. You just stated that "perks would only apply to the player". Unless your post implies that you 100% know that auto-generated NPCs don't have perks it has no answer.
     
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  16. krilcebre Novice

    krilcebre
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    You literally have demon possession, talking goldfish, hp stealing enemy and magical statue, instant healing and so on, but it's hard to swallow a melee weilding character armored to the teeth for the sake of realism?
     
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  17. Van-d-all Learned

    Van-d-all
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    Are you really comparing once per game easter egg trivia to meat and bones of a combat system that makes around half of the gameplay? Instant healing, all right, but I just don't have a better alternative for it, while I see some for melee combat.
     
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  18. Politician Lurker King

    Politician
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    You are getting things backwards. It is a backup because it was poorly designed. It was never intended to be a secondary skill, as the ability tree suggests.
     
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  19. krilcebre Novice

    krilcebre
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    Exactly, fucking thank you! (Can't rate posts yet) :D
     
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  20. Vrab Educated

    Vrab
    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2017
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    Actually Atomboy said earlier it was supposed to be used as a backup, cba finding the post. Ofc this doesn't make sense given how massive melee side of the ability tree is.

    Point is: either it is a backup, and doesn't cover a quarter of the possible character development potential or it is a valid if somewhat suboptimal way of fighting (in which case it still shouldn't cover a quarter of the tree). As it is now, it's an underperforming 5th wheel that you can heavily invest into in order to make it a slightly less underperforming 5th wheel. I'd prefer it to be viable as a main focus, but either way as it is now it's neither here nor there.
     
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  21. RK47 collides like two planets pulled by gravity Patron

    RK47
    Joined:
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    Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
    [​IMG]
     
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  22. TheImplodingVoice Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck

    TheImplodingVoice
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    Nostalgia for Infinity
    ChAdTOM
     
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  23. Politician Lurker King

    Politician
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    Sep 20, 2016
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    And you believed in him. He also said that he completed the game with a meele build. Was meele a backup in Fallout? No? Didn't think so.
     
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  24. Risewild Savant

    Risewild
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2018
    Messages:
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    Location:
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    Classic Fallout games would really improve if melee/unarmed would be made into secondary fighting skills no one would invest into.

    If an RPG offers entire ability trees for fighting skills, then it needs to be at least feasible to beat the game using a character focused on that fighting skill. A player should be rewarded for whatever type of fighting his character does.

    No matter what the devs will make, even if they "balance" it, melee and unarmed will always be less OP than shooting burst weapons.

    First, a melee character has to get close to the enemy to be able to deal damage, while a ranged character can start dealing damage from a distance.
    Second, a melee character will have to move a lot, even if it kills one enemy, there are usually more than one, so it has to lose AP to get close to the next enemy.
    Third, a melee character will never be able to deal as much damage for the same AP than ranged weapons.
    Fourth, there are way less weapon options for unarmed and melee. Melee seems to have heavy and light weapons. Heavy costs more AP to use and light are usually only knives. I have no idea how many weapons there are for unarmed, but I bet there are only a few.
    Fifth, if one wants to focus on close quarters combat, it has to invest points in two skills (unarmed and melee). Both are quite weak.

    So unless they allow something like Rocket Punches, I don't think melee/unarmed will ever be as successful as burst everything around. So your fears of "it loses realism" are unfounded... Also there are plenty of abilities in the trees that really destroy any modicum of realism in this game...

    Depicted, Rocket Punch for reference:
    [​IMG]
     
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  25. Politician Lurker King

    Politician
    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
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    1,852
    Risewild, surely you understand we are talking about cRPGs, right? Those games where people have inventories with the size of warehouses and can survive open shooting with healh recovery items. It's all made up. What we need for a viable meedle build is the same abstractions we already use elsewhere. Rocket science it ain't.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
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