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About To Hell With Guns and Note of the outskirts - released

CryptRat

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Interesting.

I didn't know about xml Square Grid, I'm doing 99% things from scratch (with base java). And the 1% explains the use of 1x1 squares for everything, and I agree that it uselessly expands the size of the map.

I can't really remember the time stamp, if at a moment I thought about using thin walls and doors, I think I just wanted to take a look at what other people were doing and what's sure is that ultimately the 1% is that setting up how to draw the textures by ourselves (we're two persons working on the project, I'm not doing the art) based on the different configurations was a nightmare so we're doing something very similar to what this guy's doing on the dungeon texture drawing aspect, almost because the black walls allow to do even simpler things : https://github.com/clintbellanger/heroine-dusk/tree/master/release (his game is here). Untied things like statues also make things simpler.
The person working on the art made this, although I couldn't figure out anything with that, and I'm not sure the artist could anymore either :
ESypGI7.png
These are the 4 types of squares used in THWG :

It's interesting, because now that I'm working on something like that, I notice "problems" I would have never noticed before, for example in Gates of skeldal you can see that if you're near a house, one side doesn't correspond to what you see when you're in front of the house.
I doubt they missed the problem, I think they just didn't bother which is fine. If your wall is not symmetric in the right/west direction it's double work if you want to make something exact and I'm not even talking about the floor. I think in a discussion with cRPG addict some guy working on Legend of Faerghail stated the game has the same problem because they never really though about it, you have the choice between too restrictive, too much pointless work or just don't bother and they're choosing the third solution. It's interesting because at first we thought : "Damn it doesn't work or it's ton of work, how do others do this?" And then noticed that, well, they just don't, alright.

This stuff was really more complicated than it seemed to me at first. Switching to thin walls is somewhere in my mind, maybe I never will, but if I do and I'll have to think about things it would change before switching, and what you're describing (associating its 4 walls to each square) is a good start, thanks.

Talking about maps, I recently reworked my current maps. Previously they would be cut into smaller full square parts, like this :
But with or without an automap and whatever type of automap it's really bad. It adds a lot on the exploration aspect when you don't know where the maps actually ends and you're not sure that every square is filled.

CryptRat
Is there a way to unload weapon from inventory? Unload command or Reload - Empty weapon would be nice.
It's some low priority to-implement feature. :)
 
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Fowyr

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CryptRat

When you reload weapon, next round last action in the battle remains "reload".

thwgowddp.png


I didn't know about xml Square Grid
Your map, internally looks like this:
<?xml ve
rsion="1.0" encoding="UTF-8" standalone="yes"?><squareGrid><map>false</map><tiles><item><type>BORDERWALL</type></item><item><type>BORDERWALL</type></item>
.......
</tiles></squareGrid>
It's apparently 15x15 matrix and thus you have "thick" walls. Thin wall, as I said, require more complex map's internal structure.
 
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CryptRat

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CryptRat

When you reload weapon, next round last action in the battle remains "reload".
Yes, thanks, I still have to work on this one, I know it's still there at least when you have another type of units available so the "reload" command is still available so you could switch if you want to, and since it's still available the game does not change automatically so I need to force the change in that case.

:salute:

I didn't know about xml Square Grid
Your map, internally looks like this:
<?xml ve
rsion="1.0" encoding="UTF-8" standalone="yes"?><squareGrid><map>false</map><tiles><item><type>BORDERWALL</type></item><item><type>BORDERWALL</type></item>
.......
</tiles></squareGrid>
It's apparently 15x15 matrix and thus you have "thick" walls. Thin wall, as I said, require more complex map's internal structure.
Oops yes, my bad, sorry for that, no idea what I was thinking of, if you want the full story my answer makes 0 sense because I assumed you had no access to the xml because I'm stupid and I have worked on putting all possible data into xlm files only recently so I assumed you were mentioning some unrelated grid making program called "xml SquareGrid" or something like that that I could be using (square grid being generic I didn't relate to my own names), but in reality the map files have always been visible since the very beginning (I've never really created a map without my editor) so I've no excuse (sorry again).
It's apparently 15x15 matrix and thus you have "thick" walls.
Yes.

EDIT : I just saw that the command menu exceeds the bottom of your window. It should work better in full screen, it works in full screen on my friend's PC who had the same problem (and maybe in Windowed mode too since they have been changes on how layout works but I don't think we took the time to verify).
 
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CryptRat

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I almost finished rebalancing THWG so it works with last engine modifications, recently added resistances especially.

I've also rework hit points and attacks/round so that nothing directly depends on the level anymore, hit points depend only on your resistance (strength in THWG) stat and hits/round on your speed, weapon skill and chosen attack speed, which means now your "single target" guys will have to keep their encumbrance below half of their maximum if they want to be any effective. I'm not completely satisfied with hit points, maybe ultimately I'll have to distinguish between party characters and enemies, but I'm reluctant and it'll work for now.

These are the new pictures, I already shared the stairs and the boss in the general dev thread.
IdJXYnl.png
zLP6EOT.png

This one is spoiler, don't look unless you've already played the game, or don't care :
fOPvRqY.png
KwgwxKN.png

Along these each of the 4 different enemies in the game will have their own picture. It's such a blessing I'm not the one working on the pictures, and it's not only my drawing skills which are inexistent, it's also how boring the monsters would be if I was the designer. This one is definitely the best one in the released game, I love it.
It's totally normal it's the best one because the nurse and the merchant were rushed, their heads are some weird altered versions of a copy-paste of this one, although that's off-topic, what I wanted to say is that for the fire demon I was thinking of some generic fire elemental, fortunately the drawer is more inspired than I am and said "booooring, I'll make some fire juggler instead". It is not done yet though', but the imp will look like that :

Talking about monster pictures, I'm at a point where current THWG is not a buggy mess anymore and I don't know when the fire demon picture will be available so I could probably release a build which misses the picture of the fire demon although I don't know if I actually will.
 
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CryptRat

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So how does public domain work? If the source is a plain scan or photo of an old book like this can I just use the pictures as is as monster sprites? The old artwork style works fine for a minimalistic haunted house game.
 

CryptRat

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To Hell With Guns v1.0.1 is available, don't play it (OK you can if you have not played the old version).

Saves are not compatible with the previous version, sorry for that.

The relevant changes are some bug fixes, more pictures, full screen mode and resizable window, a new "Tracking" skill to take monsters by surprise and not be taken by surprise by them and some rebalances, it's especially harder to flee from battles. The full changelog is available from the game page.
 
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CryptRat

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I've been working a bit on the engine.

The most important change is that many enemies use weapons now, and wear equipment. After a fight you can loot everything they got. That's how you'll get most of your new equipment.
Note that there's a command available to unload and stack all the ammos from all the weapons there. For the rest I don't know if everything will eventually be stacked.

It's not perfect but I made a proper trading screen, you don't have to go into the character's screen to sell items. Also inventories can be as big as necessary now, and you can scroll between pages.

You can attack shops, which triggers a particular encounter. Then if you win you get all the shop money, and everything which was available to buy is available to loot, but you'll have to choose what to carry because everything else will disappear forever as soon as you move out.
Attacking a shop makes creatures in the zone more hostile (that includes both fixed and random encounters).

Fixed encounters work a bit differently than random ones, typically with creatures who are not hostile.
Here the guards are securising the area and won't let anybody pass. If you manage to get a piece of information or just leave then you turn back, if you manage to threaten them then they definitely leave, while if you manage to bribe them then they just let you pass.

You may have noticed the "(R)equest to join" command. It's a bit of extra work to be sure everything works so this could finally not be in but in theory you should be able to recruit anybody or anything in the game, which just won't gain XP, take their part of the credits and keep their items forever.

You can take notes in-game now, after buying a cheap log recorder. I use a pen & pencil myself but I know some players like to be able to do that.

You can consult a rudimentary automap that fills-in when you're not lost so you need to keep your orientation skill high if you want it to work.
You need to buy Mapping tools first, which are available in the starting area but not in the very first shop.

Some loose things :
- The weapons and armors you can buy at the shop in the beginning of the next game are basically all the weapons and armors you can find in THWG, although some are too expensive to be bought at the beginning. For the rest there are about 35 functional enemies wearing other weapons. I think I won't really add more weapons, I'll rather give them more different abilities because many of them are basic past their different stats. I think there'll be about as much other monsters (robots, animals, and spell casters), they currently don't have abilities and enemies can't cast spell yet.
- There are afflictions associated with the different types of damages (and associated resistances) now.
- I've yet to work on consumables and accessories. The game contains many types of armors and a few types of boots and helmets, worn by enemies, maybe I'll add more or maybe I won't.
- I'm also working on the various utility skills like swim, reparation, first aid, surgery, hacking, demolitions ...
- Regarding surgery it's used to heal broken members (you perform the surgery and only then after some time it will be cured) but it's also used to attach and detach some equipment parts, although I'll keep those sparse because regarding weapons especially it's more fun to be able and regularly swap weapons based on enemies ('s resistance scores).
- Regarding balancing base stats, that's not done yet but I think Logic will now unlock the abilities of a weapon other than the first one. Low perception gives a progressive malus to range, including with spells.
- I'm not certain anymore that the game will take place in a big dungeon, it may take place in several "disconnected" small ones with a (space?) overworld.
- On the assets and sound side, nothing is done.
- The game could start this way, after you created your party (probably 7 or 8 characters max) :
 
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Dorateen

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Lots of good stuff here. I like the option to attack the shopkeeper, with appropriate consequences. Reminds me of something from Pool of Radiance, there was an old gypsy or fortune teller, and if the party attacked her it would enrage the monsters of the area, making subsequent encounters tougher.

Would the overworld also be in 3D/first person perspective... or rather a top down map to navigate?
 

CryptRat

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I'm thinking of the game taking place in a space part surrouding a (dwarf) planet, in which case the approach of SSI's Buck Rogers games with a space map and maybe one top down outdoor map containing a few dungeons while satellites and spaceships are one dungeon could work.

I'm undecided since it's one more layer to work on, including implementing at least a simple spaceship duel system.

The reasons I'm thinking about doing this are multiple, and one reason is that I've tried for quite a while to build a big dungeon with very connected areas, and I don't like the results, so I'm trying to switch to small self-contained dungeons. And if the dungeons are disconnected then some space travelling seem to fit in a game where you're fighting against bear riders holding laser guns.
 

CryptRat

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That's a fair point, I think they work as a pretext to be able and board one or two spaceship dungeons, but that can be a lot of work without adding much to the game.

Note that free overworld travels, in space or not, are not top priority but there's something I like about them.
 

CryptRat

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Guys and gals, I could use your opinion about interaction with environment, shortcuts and overall presentation.

Here's what's currently done :
When inside combat if a skill or spell or item can be used inside combat, then the "(U)se" command is avaliable in combat, otherwise it's not (but all skills and spells are still visible, and there's currently no highlighting because there are already several layers of highlighting).
When not in combat if a skill or spell or item can be used outside combat, then the "(U)se" command is avaliable outside combat, otherwise it's not (but all skills and spells are still visible, and they have to be so you can check and upgrade them).

If a skill or spell or item can be used at all, then the "(A)dd shortcut" command is avaliable (everywhere).
Then, when inside combat if a skill or spell or item can be used inside combat, then the shortcut appears in combat, otherwise it does not.
And when not in combat if a skill or spell or item can be used outside combat, then the shortcut appears outside combat, otherwise it does not.
Then about the description of the skill or item, it only describes the primary use of the skill or item (then if it's a weapon the weapons stats and attacks), it does not tell you that a laser gun (or any fire weapon) can melt an ice tile or that the "freeze" spell can freeze a small zone of water tiles.

Finally, what I'm going to add, so let's say it's done, is that this is typically the kind of info that would be provided by enemies when you manage to persuade them to give you some info.

One thing I'm undecided about is if the shortcuts of currently equipped items (by the selected character, everything before apply only to the currently selected character, of course) which have an utility should automatically be displayed (even if you didn't manually add them). My opinion is that they should be automatically be displayed. Basically if you equip a laser rifle by chance then you get a clue that it could do something, just like when seeing outside combat your freeze shortcut that you added for combat it gives you a clue that freeze could do something outside combat. And in the same time you won't spend your time wondering if your current weapon can do something outside combat, if there's no command then there's no use, weapons can't break a door expect for a few ones like a bazooka, if you want to break a door you need a plastic or to "disintegrate" it.

So, any comment? Is this not enough handolding, too much handolding, is this alright?
 
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V_K

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Personally, I would go the other way around:
- In the item description, give a vague hint about its possible uses. Something like a laser rifle "cuts through metal as easily as it would through ice".
- All the shortcuts/use lists are displayed in any situation. The ones that can't be used produce a generic "didn't work" message (and maybe waste some resource to discourage bruteforcing).
But it also depends on how common/frequent those interactions are. If it's just business as usual, like trap disarming, then it doesn't make sense to obscure the possible action from the player. If it's more like puzzles, then making suggestions defeats the purpose.
 

CryptRat

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I don't think we disagree much, but maybe I'm wrong. Also I indeed like the kind of descriptions you've given.

Basically if I don't change what's done, and I may change what's done, then they are two important points that I'm not sure about :
- while walking no command while be visible outside combat in the menu that does nothing outside combat during the entire game, the only distinction made is between inside combat and outside combat, if it's visible outside combat it's visible everywhere outside combat.
- I want to throw at the player's face, by putting it in the menu even if it didn't manually add it to the list of his shortcuts like he would do for spells and consumables, that the currently selected character has something equipped (equipped, not everywhere in the inventory) that can do something outside combat somewhere in the game (but he won't know where), because most pieces of equipment don't so it's not intuitive, you directly "use" pills, you don't directly "use" weapons.


If you've got an axe equpped then nothing is displayed outside combat and in your inventory the "use" command is not available for the axe (since an axe will never ever do something outside combat during the game), while if you've got a laser gun equipped then "laser gun" is always* visible outside combat and in your inventory you can always "use" the laser gun, and you don't know what it can do.

Current interactions are all "common" (there's no blocking specific spots where using them, it's directly while navigating, you see there's an ice tile ahead, and you can melt it, same with doors, but "laser gun" and "demolition" are always* visible). There'll be uncommon ones where you can "hack" for example, and yes "hack" will always probably be displayed, although at a moment I thought about a third category (1. inside combat, 2. everywhere outside combat, 3. all specific spots, including shops ... everything but a common tile) but I think I won't add it.

* skills are always visible if the character has put it in its shortcuts (you will add "swim" to your character who can swim, "hack" to your character who can hack ..., and add shortcuts to the spells a character actually uses, the game is, let's say, classless, in theory everybody could use everything) or never visible otherwise, with two restrictions :
- a distinction is made between inside combat and outside combat (if a spell can't be used at all oustide combat during the game then it's not visible outside combat), the disctinction is made not to overburden the menu with commands like "swim" or "jump" during combat for example and yes also so you don't want to use a weapon outside combat which can never be used outside combat during the game.
- if a skill can't be used at all in the game (like the "melee weapons" skill or whatever) then you cannot add a shortcut.
Now with items the difference I was thinking of is to always display "laser gun" while navigating even if you have not seen in your inventory that the "use" command is available and then added it to shortcut.

Note that weapons are particular as that during combat you don't have a "laser gun" command but "shoot" and "aim" command.
Maybe that's important, I didn't think about it before, what's sure is that my intention was not to display the "cut" command outside combat if you have an axe equipped because it does nothing during the game, now maybe that with a laser gun then "laser gun" command is awful while a "fire" command at the opposite is maybe too obvious (but thinking about it I think it's an alright in).
 
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V_K

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I think maybe a composite, somthing like "Fire [weapon name]" or "Shoot [weapon name]" should be ok.
And yeah, I misunderstood your previous post. I thought you were talking about showing shortcuts in the specific squares where they are usable.
 

CryptRat

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By the way, here is an up-to-date and probably close to final character sheet :
rCCb2oZ.png

Some parts require more than a little tweak and there are a lot of bugs but nearly everything here is implemented and there should not be much more than that (possibly a few additional spells) so it should not change much from now.
 

CryptRat

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Yes, and I can't say I'm completely sure about it. Just like the always upgradable base stats, with a common pool of points, the main idea is that it should make allocating the points during the game less boring than just choosing between one or two stats.
 

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