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balance and pace

thathmew

Zero Sum Software
Developer
Joined
Nov 19, 2002
Messages
194
Location
Austin, TX
I'm just curious how people are feeling about the general pace of the game, i.e. does the challenge level seem consistent enough?
Are any quests or encounters feeling way too easy or way too tough for folks when they encounter them?
Would people like encounters to be scaled more to the party's power level?
Would you use a difficult level setting or slider if it was available?

For those interested our goal was to make the game moderately challenging throughout, we want people to complete Prelude, but we didn't want them to just be able to walk through it. And we do want a variety of challenge levels, some things should be easy and some hard and some things are definitely meant to be done after the characters have improved a bit. In general by areas the average challenge level is thus --
from easiest to hardest:
Kellen
Academy
Land's End
Crossing East
Ironwood
Barrier
Monastery
Citadel
Jerrock

Comments on this? Since the game is generally non-linear almost every area has some "easy" quests and some "difficult" quests.

cheers,
-mat
 

RUDEDOGG006

Novice
Joined
Dec 6, 2002
Messages
10
Location
Long Beach CA
Thems Fightin Words

I have gone through the game in pretty much that order and have not had any significant difficulties. I tried the dark path before my characters were ready and got wiped out, but that was pretty much it.

I have noticed that by joining the rebellion and killing the druid, my characters were totally overwhelmed in Jerrock.

I would not mind seeing tougher random battles as opposed to just having to fight a lot of weaker ones or a ton of bandits.
 

Chadeo

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 4, 2002
Messages
111
Location
OR, USA
In the beginning I got wiped out by a few random battles. Now I can just beat up most things with ease. I also have been taking an odd path through the game.

Kellen
Citadel
Jerrock (first try, can't get in though)
Academy
Land's End
Barrier

I have not been to these locations yet
Crossing East
Ironwood
Monastery

So I guess for me the pacing has been fine so far, though at times I felt that a given random encounter was either way to hard for my level or way to easy. I also know that I could start over and make a party that is far more powerful than what I currently have, so that also might factor into things as well.

I really do not have a good enough feel for the overall game yet to give good feedback though. When I play through a second time I can give you much better feedback.
 

Saint_Proverbius

Administrator
Staff Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2002
Messages
11,475
Location
Behind you.
Oh, gee.. Thanks for telling me to go straight to The Barrier, mat! :D

Like Chadeo, I tend to roam free as well. I do a few quests in one location, then I move on. I also couldn't get in to Jerrock, though. I assume there's something you have to do to get in that area?

One thing about roaming and open endedness, it'd help a great deal if the journal was spruced up a great deal. What would be nice if the thing was sorted by towns, so you could nomadically play the game and have limited page flipping through the journal. For example, you could simply go to your section on Land's End if you needed to remember what you were doing in that town. Further dividing it by things done versus not done would be great also.
 

thathmew

Zero Sum Software
Developer
Joined
Nov 19, 2002
Messages
194
Location
Austin, TX
journal

Yeah, I'm working on some sorting functionalities for the journal, as nice as it would be it's kinda low on the list. Sorting by area might be relatively easy, but a lot of journals cross locations. So should I just list them in every related location, or just in the place you got them?

In general we tried to remove journal entries after the related quests were completed. I know we weren't 100% accurate with that, though, there's actually a fair amount of variance in journal entries depending on skills and attributes (intelligence) in a lot of quests.

Oh, gee.. Thanks for telling me to go straight to The Barrier, mat!

What? I just thought you'd like the barrier <grin> Like I said, every area should have some easy and hard quests. Plus I know you spent some time "levelling" in random encounters, I'm hoping that generally folks don't have to do so and that they can get to appropriate levels of skill and what-not by just playing through the quests with the occassional encounter.

There are a couple ways to get sent into Jerrock, but as noted, it's one of the hardest locations in the game and you shouldn't really get sent there until later, although there are ways in even before you get sent there.

What I'm generally sensing is that there is a stage at which encounters are a little boring, early on they may be a little too challenging. During the final stages of the game they definitely ramp up quite a lot, but I'm thinking we don't have quite enough high-middle-end encounters.

blah, blah, blah,
-mat
 

Saint_Proverbius

Administrator
Staff Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2002
Messages
11,475
Location
Behind you.
Re: journal

thathmew said:
Yeah, I'm working on some sorting functionalities for the journal, as nice as it would be it's kinda low on the list. Sorting by area might be relatively easy, but a lot of journals cross locations. So should I just list them in every related location, or just in the place you got them?

Good question. The Love Potion quest, for example, starts in Crossing East, then goes to the Barrier where you pick up subquests involving that quest. You could put it in both, or you could do it where the subquests refer back to the original quest, like so:

  • I talked to Bob about the mosquito problem they're having in Swamptown[See entry for March 3rd, 1531 in Swamptown section]. He seems to think we should see the local Frog Racing Track for a good supply of low cost retired frogs to take back to Swamptown.

Maybe even impliment a hyperlinking system for the journal.

Another neat thing would be keeping track of what you've killed in the journal. I know it's a little rogue-like, but if it's not a hard thing to add, sometimes it's fun to check the "score".

In general we tried to remove journal entries after the related quests were completed. I know we weren't 100% accurate with that, though, there's actually a fair amount of variance in journal entries depending on skills and attributes (intelligence) in a lot of quests.

It'd be nice if there was a "Completed Quests" section, especially for people who tend to play multiple parties at once. That way, when they go back to a party they hadn't played in a while, they could read the completed quest part to remind them what they've done.

What? I just thought you'd like the barrier <grin> Like I said, every area should have some easy and hard quests. Plus I know you spent some time "levelling" in random encounters, I'm hoping that generally folks don't have to do so and that they can get to appropriate levels of skill and what-not by just playing through the quests with the occassional encounter.

No one in my party had much in the way of money making skills, like music and pickpocketting, so I had to harvest bandits to earn a living. :D

I did do a bit of training recently to get my thaumaturgist character I picked up to develop Dagger though.

What I'm generally sensing is that there is a stage at which encounters are a little boring, early on they may be a little too challenging. During the final stages of the game they definitely ramp up quite a lot, but I'm thinking we don't have quite enough high-middle-end encounters.

I like the combat in this game pretty well. It hasn't gotten boring to me yet, but it was more challenging in the beginning.

One thing that might make the challenge greater is if at some point, you'd run across bandits with magical abilities. A bandit party with Flame or Gifts would be interesting.
 

Kyminara

Novice
Joined
Dec 21, 2002
Messages
26
Location
Ohio
Plus I know you spent some time "levelling" in random encounters, I'm hoping that generally folks don't have to do so and that they can get to appropriate levels of skill and what-not by just playing through the quests with the occassional encounter

That's what I've been doing. My characters went places based on where quests sent them, and I almost never went out "Leveling". Following quests, I have gone from Kellen to Lands End and the Academy, then to the Citadel, and then to the Barrier. I have definately found some encounters and quests that are very difficult for my characters, but every place I went to had at least a few things that my characters could accomplish.
It would be helpful in some places if my characters had a chance to run away when they meet something too strong for them.
 

Saint_Proverbius

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Messages
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"Levelling" is really a side benefit for me. My main interest in camping for bandits is typically that of outfitting a new party member or building up my wallet after a buying spree. While I do have a merchant, I don't have much in the way of money maker skills. So, that means I have to hunt some bandits for their belongings.

However, what would be a nice addition to Prelude to Darkness would be the ability for a merchant to be a travelling trade type merchant. For example, what if the farmers could sell their goods to a merchant in gross, and the merchant could take them to a city like the barrier and sell them for a profit as a means of not combat money earning for the barter skill people?

Depending on the goods, you could allow more profit for things that required crafting. The Barrier doesn't have a woodcutter, but they have an armor shop, for example. A merchant should be able to buy up stuff from a woodcutter like the one in Kellen and take it to a location without such an artisan and sell it at a mark up.

Just a thought. :D
 

calron

Novice
Joined
Dec 23, 2002
Messages
3
Up to now I have also not done much "levelling". The pace is also quite good and I keep encountering new and chalenging quests. Up to now I have gone throught the towns in the following order:

Kellen
Crossing East
Academy
Land's End
Barrier

The battles do seem to be getting easier, as compared to the beginning of the game. One possibility would be to adjust the strength and number of your opponents according to the party strength and skills.
Less skilled parties would get easier battles whereas very experienced parties are still kept on their toes by giving them more and harder opponents in the random battles.
 

crpgnut

Augur
Joined
Dec 11, 2002
Messages
337
Location
St. Louis,MO,USA
Random Encounters

I created my party without a combat character. I started with a hermit(who took thaumaturgy and gifts of the goddess, sword, and thrown.) This guy is the closest
to a warrior I have. I also took a merchant(no combat skills at all), and an acolyte,
who uses a dagger. I quickly gathered up the 3 joinable npcs in Kellen. Um...the
butcher's apprentice, the dilettante in the bar, and the Goddess chick. I've given
every character a bow, except for the hermit who throws enchanted javelins.
In the first area, my party is kicking plenty of buttocks. Without a single skill point
in missile weapons, they hit about 60-70% of the time. The ones with high dexterity
seem to hit a little more than that. Each character now has 3-5 levels of missile and
2-3 levels of armor. My hermit seems to regenerate his magic quickly, while the acolyte
has to sleep constantly to regain his. Will these guys be able to make it in the long run?
Or should I go back and make some warriors?
 

Kyminara

Novice
Joined
Dec 21, 2002
Messages
26
Location
Ohio
I have noticed that the first character in my group will sometimes regain full magic when they have not yet rested. I think it's somehow related to travelling between different areas, but I haven't yet been able to pinpoint what triggers it.
 

Carioz

Novice
Joined
Dec 8, 2002
Messages
19
>>I have noticed that the first character in my group will sometimes regain full magic when they have not yet rested. I think it's somehow related to travelling between different areas, but I haven't yet been able to pinpoint what triggers it.

Is he by chance a Thaumaturgist?
 

Kyminara

Novice
Joined
Dec 21, 2002
Messages
26
Location
Ohio
>>>>I have noticed that the first character in my group will sometimes regain full magic when they have not yet rested. I think it's somehow related to travelling between different areas, but I haven't yet been able to pinpoint what triggers it.

>>Is he by chance a Thaumaturgist?

She has both Thaumaturgy and Power of the Flame. When her magic regenerates suddenly, both magic pools become full.
 

Saint_Proverbius

Administrator
Staff Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2002
Messages
11,475
Location
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Re: Random Encounters

crpgnut said:
I created my party without a combat character. I started with a hermit(who took thaumaturgy and gifts of the goddess, sword, and thrown.) This guy is the closest to a warrior I have. I also took a merchant(no combat skills at all), and an acolyte, who uses a dagger.

Hermits really do seem to be a fantastic background because they're so.. moldable. You can pretty much make them anything you want, with the exception of the diplomacy style character due to that -3 Charisma thing. That's not to say they can't be one, I just think you're better off going Merchant than making a Hermit one.

I went with Merchant, Guardian, and Farmer. Naturally, my Guardian is my best fightery guy, but the Farmer is fairly powerful as well. The Farmer has Gifts and the Guardian has Medical, so I'm set up for healing. The Merchant, he's my talker/seller guy with an axe.

Without a single skill point in missile weapons, they hit about 60-70% of the time. The ones with high dexterity seem to hit a little more than that. Each character now has 3-5 levels of missile and 2-3 levels of armor.

Wow! Because I couldn't hit crap when I tried throwing or bow. :D

Then again, "speed" and "charisma" are my favored attributes for most characters.

My hermit seems to regenerate his magic quickly, while the acolyte
has to sleep constantly to regain his. Will these guys be able to make it in the long run?
Or should I go back and make some warriors?

If you're doing that well with ranged, then you're fine.
 

Carioz

Novice
Joined
Dec 8, 2002
Messages
19
I have seen thatThaumaturgy bar refills as time passes, but flame bar refilling could be a glitch... better ask one of the devs.
 

thathmew

Zero Sum Software
Developer
Joined
Nov 19, 2002
Messages
194
Location
Austin, TX
Hmmm. I don't think either Flame or Thaumaturgy should be regenerating without resting, so it's probably a bug. I'll check it out, if you notice any more specifics let me know.
cheers,
-mat
 

crpgnut

Augur
Joined
Dec 11, 2002
Messages
337
Location
St. Louis,MO,USA
thathmew said:
Hmmm. I don't think either Flame or Thaumaturgy should be regenerating without resting, so it's probably a bug. I'll check it out, if you notice any more specifics let me know.
cheers,
-mat

Mat, I'll pay close attention. As the above poster guessed, my Thaumaturge guy is
in the first slot of the party. I'm off today so I should get in a couple hours of gameplay.
I'll let you know when he regenerates, but it does happen. He also uses gifts of the goddess, which may not have been a good idea. Both schools use the same pool
of magic. If this is a bug, I like it :)
 

Vorchun

Novice
Joined
Jan 3, 2003
Messages
1
Yeah, I've noticed similar thing. My magic user Thaumaturgist regain full Willpower every time party change location. I'm not sure about _every_ location, but w/ dungeons/caves it worked 100%. He's party leader, if that does matter.
This is definitely a bug, but very useful bug, I admit :D
 

crpgnut

Augur
Joined
Dec 11, 2002
Messages
337
Location
St. Louis,MO,USA
Nice little buggy

Any character in the first position will have all health and magic bars refilled. It's the nicest bug I've run into in a long time. This always happens when switching maps.
Fast travel works also, IIRC. Remember though, it's best to cast as many spells as
possible right before using this bug. That way your skills will go up nicely. What I
do is fight a battle, go near the exit, cast all my healing spells, then exit with my
spell caster in the first slot. Once outside, I will switch with a second spellcaster
so that when we re-enter they will be recharged also! Have fun, til Mat fixes this
one :)
 

thathmew

Zero Sum Software
Developer
Joined
Nov 19, 2002
Messages
194
Location
Austin, TX
<grin>
yeah, I found the "auto-heal" one today, it will be fixed in the next patch.

Out of curiousity, how do folks feel about rest/recovery/healing rates?

-mat
 

crpgnut

Augur
Joined
Dec 11, 2002
Messages
337
Location
St. Louis,MO,USA
thathmew said:
<grin>
yeah, I found the "auto-heal" one today, it will be fixed in the next patch.

Out of curiousity, how do folks feel about rest/recovery/healing rates?

-mat

Hmmm, I may have answered this before, but I dislike the amount
of power available to flame mages before resting. I might get to
cast 3-5 flame snakes before my magic is completely gone. This
is fine, if you're very close to a safe resting area, but sucks completely
if you're wandering the countryside between towns. Then it's hoping
for a rare rest period that goes uninterrupted. Of course, with the above
bug, it's not as big of a deal....BTW, I haven't looked at this real recently
so I'm guessing I have more magic points available to me now that my
skill in Flame is 44 vs the 20 I started with. Is this correct?
 

thathmew

Zero Sum Software
Developer
Joined
Nov 19, 2002
Messages
194
Location
Austin, TX
yeah I'm in agreement with the amount casting per rest so for the next version I'm adding a post-combat recovery for flame and river magics not unlike the end-of-combat healing for hitpoints. I'm testing and playing with it now, but it seems like about 1/3 of you total casting points will be replenished.

-mat
 

crpgnut

Augur
Joined
Dec 11, 2002
Messages
337
Location
St. Louis,MO,USA
thathmew said:
yeah I'm in agreement with the amount casting per rest so for the next version I'm adding a post-combat recovery for flame and river magics not unlike the end-of-combat healing for hitpoints. I'm testing and playing with it now, but it seems like about 1/3 of you total casting points will be replenished.

-mat

It could even be skill related. Either with medical again, or based on the character's
skill in magic. Say a person with 40 flame regains 20% and a person with 80 river
gains 40% of their magic back. With medical, it could be a percentage that matches
the highest medical skill. Medical equals 35, would be 35% of used magic recovered.
Anything would help IMHO. The other method would be a slow regeneration based
on time. Say a flame mage with a 20 skill regains 20% of his magic/hour. I'd personally
love a number stat for the magic skills. If you right click on a character's portrait you
see their exact hitpoints. I'd love for it to show for Gifts/Thaum and Flame also.
 

thathmew

Zero Sum Software
Developer
Joined
Nov 19, 2002
Messages
194
Location
Austin, TX
Recovery at the end of combat is currently based on the highest medical skill in the party. (heal amount is skill/2 hp at the end of combat)
I've thought about basing rest/will point recovery on skill, but in the end decided to keep it simple, basing it on skill would just make the magics overwhelmingly powerful at the end and even more underpowered at the start probably, right now as I play I generally like the balance of mage vs melee vs range etc... so I'm trying not to upset it too much.

-mat
 

Saint_Proverbius

Administrator
Staff Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2002
Messages
11,475
Location
Behind you.
thathmew said:
I've thought about basing rest/will point recovery on skill, but in the end decided to keep it simple, basing it on skill would just make the magics overwhelmingly powerful at the end and even more underpowered at the start probably, right now as I play I generally like the balance of mage vs melee vs range etc... so I'm trying not to upset it too much.

What about a "Heal" option in resting for people with the medical skill to speed up the healing rate for resting? I.e. everyone rests normally except the guy with medical, and he treats the people who are resting to make them recover health a little faster?
 

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