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NSFW Best Thread Ever [No SJW-related posts allowed]

Discussion in 'General Gaming' started by Jaesun, Mar 15, 2011.

  1. Gerrard Arcane

    Gerrard
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    This is the key to understanding video game journalists.
     
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  2. CryptRat Prestigious Gentleman Arcane Developer

    CryptRat
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    And as far as video games are concerned Global gladiators was OK too from what I remember.
     
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  3. JarlFrank I like Thief THIS much Patron

    JarlFrank
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    This is actually an interesting video. I especially like her reactions to modern "open world" and cinematic games.

    She enjoyed overcoming difficult areas in platformers etc, but said that she doesn't really feel like spending her time getting frustrated with challenging difficulty just to get that feeling of triumph at the end, which is a fair enough stance to have. She's not clamoring for games to become easier so she can enjoy them, she just says it's not her thing but understands why people enjoy it.

    More interesting is her reaction to modern game design. In Uncharted, she wanted to jump through a broken window because it looked like it would be possible, and got frustrated when it wasn't possible and the game expected her to shimmy across the ledge instead. In Skyrim, she thought she could hide from the dragon until it was gone, but her immersion was broken when she realized the game expected her to follow the NPC in a linear scripted sequence. In Doom, when the game wanted her to destroy some pod thing, she threw explosives against it and scratched her head when it didn't work (turns out, the game expected her to press E on the thing to rip it out by hand). In The Last of Us, she tried to go past an obviously open area in a side street but got eaten by zombies, so next time she just tried running past there faster - a reasonable attempt - until she realized it was the game's way of telling her this area is inaccessible.

    Meanwhile the guy says that all these things are things that long-time gamers understand because they've been trained to see the signposting. Walk somewhere that ends in instant death? Yeah, dev doesn't want you to go there. That ledge has a notable color that is different from other ledges? You can climb along it, while you can't climb along the others. Gamers who are used to modern AAA game design accept it without question. His wife, who never played games before but heard stories of him talking about how cool games are because they let you do things, was invariably frustrated and disappointed whenever games pulled those tricks on her.

    Heck, she didn't even notice that a compass with quest markers existed in Skyrim at first!

    This shows that modern AAA level design is utter bullshit that is nothing but jarring and immersion-breaking. Unless you know the visual language of modern AAA design, you're gonna get frustrated by thinking you can do things, but then can't for arbitrary reasons.
    Why is it that some ledges and handholds can be grabbed in Uncharted and others can't, just because they have differently colored textures? No real reason. It's just something you have to accept.

    She probably would have felt much better with more openly designed games, even older ones, once she got used to the controls. Dishonored 2 would have been a better game to give her, as it's pretty open in the approaches it allows the player, and you can go anywhere, anytime. See that ledge? You can blink up to it or climb it. There is no artificial separation between ledges you can climb and ledges you can't. If it's there, you can climb it. The level architecture is designed to be permissive towards player experimentation, while the level architecture in cinematic games like Uncharted or The Last of Us is designed to be restrictive and guide the player towards a certain pre-determined path from which he isn't allowed to stray.

    She might even have enjoyed Thief, Deus Ex, or even the original Tomb Raiders once she got used to the dated visuals and the controls. They're all games that allow a much more open approach to exploration, not throwing any artificial roadblocks in front of the player to guide his path along extremely narrow lines. Games like Thief and the old Tomb Raiders also have a much more natural way of signposting how to progress. No glowing textures, no compass markers, just levels that are designed well and have visual cues to tell you where to go directly in the architecture. In the 2014 Thi4f reboot, spots where you can use rope arrows are marked in white and they're the only spots where you can use the arrows. Restrictive and artificial. Meanwhile, in the old Thief games, rope arrows stick into any surface with a wooden or cloth (wallpaper etc) texture. Logical and easily graspable by anyone, even people who never played video games before and don't know anything about video game logic.

    This video is the perfect argument against cinematic railroaded games, and in favor of more systemic interactions with the environment.

    Her throwing an exploding barrel at the thing she had to destroy in Doom, which was glowing red as a sign for players that it's interactable by pressing E, is not a fault of her not knowing the "language of level design" - as in, not knowing that things glowing means you can press E on them.
    It's a fault of modern level design relying on crutches like that, rather than going for a more natural style of level design and systemic interaction with the environment. She often, during the scenes we see, has the right idea, and the only reason the game doesn't let her do it is because the game wants the player to do a specific cinematic thing instead of letting the player freely experiment with its systems.
     
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  4. Grimlorn Arcane

    Grimlorn
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    His gf is kind of an idiot. I understand not having the hand eye coordination for controllers or keyboards in video games and absorbing all the controls off the bat, but there were many times it seemed she misinterpreted basic information happening on screen. Men are probably more likely to experiment with controls and mechanics until they understand how they work. Like in Portal for instance, she's sitting there playing from one perspective because she doesn't know about the mouse. A guy would have likely played around with the controls until he figured it out, figuring out rationally there's no way you could or would play a game this way. Or The Last of Us where she just keeps going in one direction without trying a new direction. Men also have better spacial awareness and are less likely to get lost in 3D games like she did at the beginning of Skyrim. Makes me wonder if most of the players who couldn't find Caius Cosades when they tried were actually women.
     
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  5. JarlFrank I like Thief THIS much Patron

    JarlFrank
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    And yet, when it came to finding solutions to the problems games presented her with, she was often willing to experiment.

    And then the games shut her down by not allowing it - most notably the more cinematic games among the crowd.

    Modern game design is terrible and she would have enjoyed an immersive sim like Deus Ex or and RPG where you can approach quests your way like New Vegas a lot more, I'd wager.
     
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  6. Grimlorn Arcane

    Grimlorn
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    Her experiments consist of her hiding from a dragon in a game, trying to blow up that thing in Doom to advance in the game, and try to go through that window in Uncharted. In the first 2 cases she was being a typical woman and afraid. There was a shiny, diamond prompt in the Doom and she was scared to go up to it and see what it was, or she just didn't notice it like like the Skyrim compass. Either way I think those "experiments" are just accidents and there is no way she could play something like Deus Ex or New Vegas without a lot of backseat gaming and help. There are too many examples of her refusing to experiment when faced with challenge or misinterpreting information on happening in the game. Like the dashing in the air in a different direction. In gaming you have to try different approaches to overcome challenges. I didn't see enough of that from her and the guy in the video comes to some awful conclusions based on how she plays. I think if you found average guys that aren't faggots and had them play video games for the first time they'd figured this stuff out much quicker than women.
     
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  7. HansDampf Prophet

    HansDampf
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    I thought it was a lame experiment with only one test subject (his gf) and a dubious choice of games for a non-gamer.
     
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  8. YldriE Learned

    YldriE
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    Almost everyone who tries to get non-gamers into gaming makes the exact same mistakes with the exact same games. Portal isn't a beginner's game, nor are most 2D platformers.

    ------

    Others have already commented on specific things the girl did or failed to do so I won't get back to it, but come on, we are dumbfounded that she doesn't seem to be picking up our decades of experience over a ten-day YouTube experiment. Just how good were we after years of NES platformers? I bet most of us have white whales we never managed to beat, instead spending months fucking around the first levels because we were too clueless to make it further.

    However, there is an elephant in the room: you cannot just handwave away that she is a girl. Grimlorn is 100% correct, a guy would look around, experiment, try more things, be more daring, random even, not to mention our God-tier ability to interiorize an abstract representation of a partially known explorable space. Mere navigation is a nightmare to many women, gaming is a male thing that appeals to male skills; when was the last time you saw a "gamer girl" who got there on her own violition and not because she got brought in by a boyfriend? The girl in the video agreed to sit down for something she doesn't give a shit about, and for a "non-gamer" she is not doing exceedingly bad.

    We underestimate how much everything looks like white noise when you are brand new. Yes, you can single out the yellow line or the quest compass at a specific point in time when you are reminded, but after that your focus get split everywhere else on the screen and you might completely forget about it for a while. It's the honeymoon phase, you're curious, everything is new. The fact that the extreme graphical density of modern games is overwhelming says nothing about her, or the way modern AAA games are designed or supposedly fail to convey their intentions to the player. She's just new.

    ------

    Since girls don't care about gaming except as a bonding activity, that means the foot in the door should be cooperation anyway.

    Cooperative gameplay is very accomodative of boyfriend/girlfriend dynamics. When in doubt she can always just follow you, when things get tough you can protect her, you can clean up after her mistakes, you can always teach her, correct bad habits and misconceptions before they take root, etc.

    I insist that videogames with your girl is a bonding experience first and foremost. No one gives a shit how well you think you should be doing, don't get mad at her for underperforming (and by God she fucking will). The point is that you are playing together. Girls aren't interested in a challenge, in number-crunching or in the thrill of victory after repeated failures. When you play with her, you are in casual mode, you are always underperforming. No one fucking cares, you are playing together, I'm sure you play on your own when you're not together, odds are she never does, so when you are together it's her show.

    Make it interesting to her, if there is something fun like an overpowered plot-mandated weapon or a vehicle and you think she won't just waste it, let her have it. If there's a cool first-person animation or cutscene, let her trigger it. Be the Call of Duty sidekick who's always slightly ahead of you, standing next to the door, nudging you towards the next objective, hinting at what needs to be done. Soften up tough enemies so she gets the killing shot, verbally communicate your state of mind ("wow, that one looks tough" means let's be careful), block trashmobs so she can tell shields are useful, dramatically sidestep to cover in order to reload safely so she can read what you are doing and learn by mimicry, and by everything that is holy, never, ever get mad. No one learns cleanly under stress or mockery, and most definitely not a woman, and most definitely not a woman trying something she doesn't care about in an effort to be nice.

    ------

    How do we learn to drive? First we (informally) observe drivers our entire childhood. We have a vague idea of what cars do and how a car behaves when it's driven properly. Then we get some verbal training, then driving with heavy assistance, then less and less assistance until autonomy.

    Videogames aren't voodoo magic. Adults can learn to operate 1-ton missiles made of steel and plastic moving at 90km/h zooming past each other separated by a dotted line. I'm sure they can pick up videogames, it just takes time and giving half a shit.
     
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  9. Murk Arcane

    Murk
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    Huh, I simultaneously agree with three potentially opposing views. Good work lads.

    For what it's worth, the few times I played co-op (with a "gamer girl" no less, one far more into the identity than me and yet way worse at games than me) it was exactly as YldriE describes -- about the shared experience, and it was mostly me waiting for her to look at stuff and fumble controls while I tried my best to resist telling her what to do every step of the way.

    It was fun, I guess, but not something I'd want to do regularly. I'm glad my current GF doesn't play games. It's probably for the best, and I won't have to risk her being into Fallout 4 or whatever console blockbuster.
     
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  10. Tehdagah Arcane

    Tehdagah
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    In The Last of Us she ran in the opposite direction of the crowd and in the direction of the explosions while being 100% unarmed lol. This isn't even "cinematic language", it's just being rational.

    Videogames don't need to follow real-world rules. The glowing red sign in Doom means that you can interact with a melee attack, this is established in the first 5 minutes of the game. If the pod thing is glowing red then go there and use the melee button.
     
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  11. CyberModuled Learned

    CyberModuled
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  12. Gerrard Arcane

    Gerrard
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    :nocountryforshitposters:
     
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  13. Ninja Destroyer Arcane Patron

    Ninja Destroyer
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    [​IMG]
     
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  14. YldriE Learned

    YldriE
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    Everyone thinks that way and tries to force their girlfriend to play it so I can't blame you, there must be something about this game that gives this impression.

    Someone who has yet to interiorize any videogame convention isn't magically going to efficiently move and look around at the same time, figure out gravity, momentum, and physics puzzles, many of which are time-sensitive and loaded with instakills, while at the same time getting verbal cues that are either humorous and irrelevant, or downright likely to get you killed. We find it funny precisely because we know it's bullshit, that's the joke, and it's a joke that only works with someone who knows better.

    People largely underestimate the skill and experience it takes for us to see Portal as a relaxing distraction.
     
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  15. Gerrard Arcane

    Gerrard
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    The 53.3% completion achievement rate proves otherwise.
     
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  16. Mikeal Liturgist

    Mikeal
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  17. Fedora Master Arcane Patron

    Fedora Master
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    [​IMG]
     
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  18. rusty_shackleford Arcane

    rusty_shackleford
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    A beginner's game is anything that's coop.
     
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  19. yellowcake Arcane

    yellowcake
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    First portal required considerable KB+M skill too.
     
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  20. PulsatingBrain Huge and Ever-Growing Patron

    PulsatingBrain
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    The Portal games are good beginner games because they're like one long tutorial. They even make you look up and down before you can physically move. They may have some challenging areas, but they introduce their concepts and rules very gradually and in an easy to understand way
     
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  21. YldriE Learned

    YldriE
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    Again, videogames aren't voodoo magic. Adults can learn to drive, certainly they can learn videogames if they actually want to.

    That said, there is a massive difference between "I can claw through this" and "I can play this smoothly". In the same way you will miss half a book if you only have rudimentary knowledge of the language it is written in, you can probably claw your way through Portal as a beginner but that's just a terrible way to approach it. It relies on you having solid 3D navigation skills so you can focus on the puzzles and narration, with the motor skills as irrelevant background noise... and it's going to be a while before basic nagivation becomes irrelevant background noise. A beginner trying Portal is doing way too much, way too soon.

    Videogames for beginners are always an awkward conversation because almost everyone who is interested in talking about it has years of experience and is absolutely dumbfounded that anything might be new and alien. You don't see YouTube videos about cooking, sewing or repairing cars flooded with comments about how the video is just stating the obvious and everybody should already know that anyway. Yes, it will take a while before a beginner remembers to reload manually, use grenades, switch ammo types, use buffs and debuffs, block and dodge, run in the middle of trash mobs to use AoE, spend skill points or switch to better gear. It will take a while for them, just like it did to you. It says nothing about the game, or the person. It just says something about learning something complex in adulthood. They will get there eventually.

    If I had to pick one category of games to ease a beginner into moving around in 3D, I would go with a cover shooter because their design is beginner-friendly to a point where it's hard to satirize it. You are essentially invincible in cover so you can approach it with extreme caution, once you are in cover you can resolve most gunfights without needing to move at all, and many of them can be played in coop and are extremely tolerant of player death. Then the game is so easy and safe that you can then experiment like moving to another cover, charging a pinned enemy with a shotgun, dodging a grenade instead of tanking it and waiting for regen, etc, all of which sound absolutely obvious and retarded to anyone with experience because to us it was so long ago that we sort of assume we never went through a learning phase.

    That learning phase is wasted with a game like Portal, I would rather keep it for a boring and uneventful game. If the person is too unexperienced to follow a story because they are too focused on trying to stay alive and move forward, then I don't want that to happen in a game where the jokes are half the experience.
     
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  22. PulsatingBrain Huge and Ever-Growing Patron

    PulsatingBrain
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    The idea that someone might not share the same level of experience or knowledge is extremely obvious and basic. I don't know where you're getting this from.

    That level of disconnection is literally autistic
     
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  23. YldriE Learned

    YldriE
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    We're not talking about different levels of experience, we're talking about solid familiarity vs near zero. It's so alien to you that you immediately moved to another match-up, that's exactly the blind spot I'm talking about, the same that gets people to offer terrible suggestions to beginners.
     
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  24. Fedora Master Arcane Patron

    Fedora Master
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    [​IMG]
     
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  25. Tehdagah Arcane

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