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Big battles show the necessity of real time with pause combat

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by Tavernking, Mar 17, 2019.

  1. grom Educated

    grom
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  2. Reinhardt Arcane

    Reinhardt
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    If there is big battle - just fucking form squads and give orders to them. Who cares about every single peasant spearman.
     
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  3. Taka-Haradin puolipeikko Prestigious Gentleman Arcane Patron

    Taka-Haradin puolipeikko
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    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Bubbles In Memoria
    But why would developer go for that when they could do awesome cinematic about battle instead?
     
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  4. Excommunicator Arcane

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  5. YanBG Learned

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    Did you know that Diablo 1 was first designed as turn-based and later changed to real-time but still uses the turns under the hood? You just can't pause them and cheat, which is pretty good end result i think. You can have as many creatures on your screen as it can cover.
    However in a game with party it's more difficult to keep track of each character and most people would hate to have a cool hero die on them. Something to think about for solution as a dev.

    Heroes of course is a great example of combat, it has tactics and strategy. Also autocombat for when you are lazy or sure of victory.

    There is this other game where you have armies made up of squads of soldiers, before combat you can arrange them in formations and give orders what to do later but can't control them once the battle starts, the AI does it for you.
     
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  6. jewboy Arbiter

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    In Arx Fatalis I had to smoke meth before fighting even a single Ylside and it was some of the funnestest combat ever. So real time does have its place, but generally turn based is more fun if you have a brain. If I made a game I'd probably want to do some hybrid thing with turn based as default, but with an optional real time mode as well and I would totally want to copy the Ylside thing and make opponents so fast that it is very difficult to click fast enough in return unless both you and your character are on stims. I really miss Arx. What a great game that was. Any other games with Ylside-like fighting?
     
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  7. Sacred82 Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck

    Sacred82
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    individual initiative bro. You don't have to sit there for 10 mins because only allies move.

    And the point of turn based is exactly that you don't have to "watch your allies move". You're engaged in the process. I'll assume you're describing a very specific scenario, with hordes of enemies, lots of allies and just a small party under your control. But even then, that doesn't mean your party has to act totally independently of your allies.

    In Suikoden Tactics (SRPG) e.g. you could change the elemental affinity of the Terrain; think D:OS. But because you tended to have lots of allies, each with their own elemental affinity, you could use your turn (or some of your turns) to assist your allies with elemental buffs/ elemental debuffs on the enemies they were facing (not even counting regular buffs). Because each elemental buff affected several squares, you had to think quite a bit about how allies and enemies are going to spend their turns and where they're going to move; you don't want to end up buffing the enemy and debuffing your allies.

    In fact, this offered up two routes: either let your allies distract and bind up some enemies while your party works together to do the actual killing, or spend your turns buffing allies and debuffing their enemies while some of your own do a bit of striking as well.

    If anything, all of this became way more nuanced than anything you could do in real time.

    Also, if 'large scale battles' are a thing in your game, why not allow some rudimentary ally control on parts of the player? In the Goldbox games, supposedly Paladins (or anyone with high Charisma?) could make a leadership check to see if allies fell under their control. Super simple, but it already breaks up the monotony of a large scale battle if the combat system wasn't actually designed for those.
     
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  8. Tavernking Don't believe his lies Shitposter

    Tavernking
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    Ok this thread summed up so far

    Good arguments:
    Shit arguments
     
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  9. Riddler Augur Patron

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    Constant pausing is kind of a problem though, it grinds what is supposed to be relatively fluid gameplay to a halt and makes balancing a nightmare.

    How about making it a limited resource? You get 1-2 pauses per encounter? It should really be like that in turn based games as well, infinite time for turns is fucking retarded.
     
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  10. Darth Canoli Liturgist

    Darth Canoli
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    Just use a fucking timer or a hourglass while playing a turn-based cRPG and as you seem to be quite the masochist, if you fail to play your turn in time, just nail your balls to your chair.
    Don't you feel better now ? You found a new motivation to play your turns faster (or slower ? :roll: )
     
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  11. kinzadza Novice

    kinzadza
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    Once the soul of the mindless imbecile that created this thread leaves its body, it will be condemned to an eternal turn based battle of pedophile priests and shitposters armed with dildos in their anal cavities.
     
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  12. laclongquan Arcane

    laclongquan
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    Codexers are generally not very good combat tactic gamers. As illustrated in this thread.

    Heroes of Might and Magic series is a strong example of above statement.

    HoMM battle is no different than a two side fights, each with maximum 7 units. Oh, the units might be differentiated with different number, like 7peasantX10HPeach so that Peasant unit has about 70 HP total. The concepts of battle with hundreds of units in HoMM is a joke~ And if you dont understand why the joke is on YOU.

    As for the original question: "Big battles show the necessity of real time with pause combat"

    Jagged Alliance 2 prove the necessity of RTwP in battles with hundred of units. You can have battle with one side overwhelm the other side with number: defenders with tens of militia and party members, against enemies invade from four side, total to more than one hundred (if you script it to happen in 113). In such battle, the time is hugely stretch~ One turn can take 60 minutes.
     
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  13. Taka-Haradin puolipeikko Prestigious Gentleman Arcane Patron

    Taka-Haradin puolipeikko
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    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Bubbles In Memoria
    Yet cinematic approach would ensure that player wouldn't be burdened by change of making wrong tactical decision.
    There could also be some controller prompts mid cinematic to guarantee that they appreciate said cinematics instead of taking a dog:shittydog: to a walk or whatever instead.
     
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  14. Max Damage Learned

    Max Damage
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    Concurrent turns were already mentioned in the very first reply, why is this thread still going?
     
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  15. anvi Cipher Village Idiot

    anvi
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    Real time, rtwp, or turn based, doesn't mean anything.
     
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  16. Riddler Augur Patron

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    Yeah, desiring a modicum of challenge is being masochistic. What is this, Pre-school?
    Time control is not some revolutionary concept of masochism, it is a staple in every remotely competitive turn based game.
     
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  17. Mr. Magniloquent Learned

    Mr. Magniloquent
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    This is actually how D&D was born. They were playing their wargames, and Gygax made some special sabotage missions for a small party. It was such a hit, that the genre was born.

    That aside, I don't understand the rift. Harmonizing the two shouldn't be difficult. Essentially, you design a turn-based system with every action having an action-point value. Each value is tied to a literal, real-world, unit of time. In turn-based mode, it limits what you can do on your turn, with AP regeneration triggering each turn. In real-time, actions resolve simultaneously after completion of the timed animation, with AP regeneration occurring continuously. How is this so fucking difficult?

    Pillars of Eternity tried to do this, and would have succeeded, but its RPG system design as a whole was a failure.
     
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  18. zwanzig_zwoelf Graverobber Foundation Developer

    zwanzig_zwoelf
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    Another way to make big battles in TB mode is giving you control of squads and managing individual units between battles (or swapping them between squads mid-battle) to keep battles short, sweet and avoid micromanagement hell. A good addition would be the ability to program actions for each unit, save them as a separate command and thus skip most of the micro-management in battle.

    It won't work for every game out there, but TB RPGs with large-scale battles could take an advantage of this system.
     
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  19. Darth Canoli Liturgist

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    Fantasy General does pretty well in terms of big scale battles, it's also really fast.

    Warbanners also does quite well, even with many friendly non-controllable units sometimes.

    Outside of arcade / beat'em all, any kind of combat RT can do, Turn-Based can do better.
     
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  20. anvi Cipher Village Idiot

    anvi
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    It is a meaningless discussion. Real Time combat can have plenty of depth, it just requires that you think fast which requires a lot of combat practice. Turn Based just gives more control over movement and more time to think about what you are doing. But the downside is that it removes any excitement, any sense of pace, and any need to get good and think fast. RTWP is in the middle, but if you pause enough it is the same as turn based. Meaningless discussion.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
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