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Bioshock ain't that bad...

Discussion in 'General Gaming' started by Master, Sep 20, 2018.

  1. Darth Roxor Prestigious Gentleman Wielder of the Huegpenis

    Darth Roxor
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    Wolf '09 is bretty good imo, except for the lousy start, somewhat pointless street levels and hp regen. Guns are all very fun to use and there's a lot of them too, enemy design is great, levels aren't bad. Powarz are meh but you can engage quad damage and gib nazis with STG-44, so that's an upside in my book. It takes a while to get rolling, but when it does, it stays enjoyable to the end.
     
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  2. Siveon Black Mage Patron

    Siveon
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    Bioshock is not as good as a shooter as nu-DOOM or Wolfenstein: The New Order.

    Off the top of my head, Overload, Wrack, Vanquish (you didn't specify FPS), Call of Juarez: Gunslinger, Ion Maiden, Dusk, Deadcore, Superhot, High Hell, what I've played Quarantined: Viscerafest was very fun, Serious Sam 3, the Turok remaster was very well done, and probably others. At the very least, I don't think they qualify as "fucking garbage".
     
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  3. Master Learned

    Master
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    Bioshock isnt really a "shooter"... You wont play it for the shooting like you would those. It has other things going for it beside that.
     
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  4. Mark.L.Joy Learned

    Mark.L.Joy
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    Both boring, didn't get the hype.
     
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  5. sullynathan Cipher

    sullynathan
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    Why is bioshock bad?
    Nah, you're retarded
     
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  6. ciox Learned

    ciox
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    Well, here it is, I won't make a big deal out of this yet because it's just a test release and running the mod is still kind of a pain.

    http://www.mediafire.com/file/dr6c0aw3o2zmsqf/BioSecmod.zip/file

    I'll paste the features here for your pleasure
    Show Spoiler

    -- SUMMARY

    enhanced movement speed for less "scenic" plodding around

    new plasmids:
    - Ionizing Blast (powerful, EVE-hungry, single target, direct-damage plasmid)

    new reimplemented tonics
    - Gunslinger (Two Round Burst)
    - Photosensitive Secretions
    - Eve Up v.3
    - Heat Sink (Asbestos Body)
    - Extended Shutdown

    new hacking system:
    - character-based (only characters with engineering tonic slots can hack properly)
    - resource-based (hacking is done through 'hack tools' which are the old autohacks but cheaper and easier to find and buy)
    - no tedious minigames (hacking "normally" is impossible and buyouts are disabled, only autohacking is possible)

    more hackable objects
    - Gatherer's Garden (reduce costs and unlock more plasmids and tonics)
    - Gene Bank (remove use cost)
    - Power to the People (reduce costs)
    - Bot Shutdown Panel (shut down security temporarily)

    rebalanced resurrection mechanics:
    - spawn with minimal health
    - do not gain extra EVE
    - lose 40 dollars per resurrection

    new weapon upgrade mechanics
    - weapon upgrade stations now offer upgrades for money
    - stations do not shut down after one use
    - price increases slightly after each upgrade, so finding new stations is still important

    rebalanced crafting costs, new crafting formulas
    - First Aid Kit (very high component requirements but makes enzyme samples and empty hypos remain useful in the late game)
    - Electric Buckshot
    - Machinegun Antipersonnel Bullets
    - Chemical Thrower (it cannot be found in the world anymore and must be crafted)
    - Crossbow (you can now craft it and use it as early as Arcadia if you want)




    rebalanced plasmid EVE costs, below are uses per full EVE bar, normally vs. with one EVE upgrade
    - ElectroBolt: 2/3 (old: 3)
    - Telekinesis 3/4 (old: 14)
    - Incinerate: 3/4 (old: 5)
    - Sonic Boom: 2/3 (old: 3)
    - Enrage: 2/2 (old: 7)
    - Security Beacon: 2/3 (old: 7)

    rebalanced weapons
    - pistol is a slower and more accurate shooter that can fire blazingly fast only if you carry the new Gunslinger tonic
    - shotgun does anti-personnel damage with its basic shells, which is very ineffective against machines and protectors
    - machinegun fires very accurately and very quickly but has more limited ammo
    - chemical thrower fires more quickly and expends its ammo much more quickly, solving the issues of it having excessive ammo but mediocre damage output
    - crossbow does armor-piercing damage with its normal bolts, contrasting with the anti-personnel effect of its incendiary bolts

    general features
    - all item and ammunition stack limits removed, game balance is done in more complex ways
    - not just loot but also the placement of some items in the world has been rebalanced
    - improved RPG elements, the player is weaker and powerful tonics appear earlier to help develop your character, new tonics add to this effect
    - health gained from medkits and bandages rebalanced (massively reduced)
    - updated in-game manual (map menu) so you don't always have to switch to a readme to get info on what's new
    - more character-based and RPG-like game flow, for instance your character doesn't start off with the ability to hack in the Medical Pavilion, but is able to buy an Engineering Slot from a vending machine early on for 60 dollars and immediately become able to hack if they wish to play a hacker character
    - security bots shoot less often with higher damage, like in the 2006 videos, causing fewer sound channel issues and physics issues
    - if you use the savegame, the first level has altered items/enemies and you start with only 1 tonic slot unlocked in each track for more choice-based gameplay
    - many more


     
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  7. Zenith Learned

    Zenith
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    It's more of a corridor shooter than Doom 3 is. In D3 you at least get to explore non-linear levels, need to pay attention to audio and written logs, have to conserve ammo and aren't taken out of the game every minute by all sorts of intrusive features. Probably got less monster closets than Bioshock too. And doesn't stop time on PDA.
    No, but for reals though. I'm not entirely serious about D3, but is Undying not a shooter now? There's inventory, you get to upgrade spells n' shit. There's story stuff - right there in the title. Why is Bioshock suddenly some exception that has to be judged as its own category? Also, wasn't it literally called "Shooter 2.0" by the devs? Or am I mixing it up with Deus Ex?
     
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  8. Master Learned

    Master
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    Wow, these changes sound great. Minigames removed?:positive:

    You shouldve released this before... Ill start a new game in a day or two.


    Well it is a shooter but not primarily... Like Deus Ex or SS2 i guess. Devs were just being full of shit by calling it that. If they wanted just a shooter, why did they bother with all the other stuff, mechanics, resources, non linear levels, AI roaming around etc. Yeah they invalidated most of that with some stupid decisions but still why bother with it in the first place.
     
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  9. Roguey Arcane Sawyerite Sawyerist Sawyer's Bride No Fun Allowed

    Roguey
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    Film being rare would be an even worse thing. The damage sponging that happens in the latter half is atrocious, taking pictures of things is a nuisance tax.

    This isn't a flaw.

    It's not like you can load up with every single tonic you have. They just removed the needlessly-restricting combat/engineering/physical distinctions which forces you into a some kind of jack-of-all trades build.

    This was discussed in the post-mortem. They started out making a bad System Shock 2-esque game, and then repurposed it into a halfway-decent shooter because Ken Levine's goal from the start was to make a SS2-like game for the masses. https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/132168/postmortem_2k_boston2k_.php
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2018
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  10. Falksi Magister

    Falksi
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    Let's talk about good Bio games.......

     
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  11. Ash Arcane

    Ash
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    This. Wolf '09 was the last acceptable pureblood FPS, and it was only a 7.5 or 8/10.

    Main issue is the dumbfuck headbob + no pistol and no shotgun. What the hell. Though shotguns were never present in any wolf game until Wolfenstien: New Popamole Order trash, but still. Where's my Luger or M1911?
    Also playing a large portion of the game in super blue land (for the extra speed mainly) and switching between the two dimensions constantly definitely has a negative impact on your eyes.
     
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  12. Eyestabber Arcane Patron

    Eyestabber
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    Wolf '01 >>>>>> Wolf '09. That game made me jizz my pants. And let's not even talk about how many hours I put into Enemy Territory, that game was like an entire college degree worth of time investment.

    No regrets. :smug:
     
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  13. Ash Arcane

    Ash
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    It goes without saying that RTCW is better than Wolf 09. Not by a huge margin though. Game has its numerous flaws.
     
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  14. The Dutch Ghost Learned

    The Dutch Ghost
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    Glad to see that there are other people on the Codex who also like Wolf '09 despite its flaws.
    I really love the Indiana Jones/Hellboy vibe in RTCW and Wolf '09. Removing that was one of TNO and New Colo's biggest sin. (wasn't even that good in The Old Blood)
     
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  15. karoliner Learned

    karoliner
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    I couldn't even finish Wolf '09 it was so boring. Still better than The Old Blood.
     
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  16. ciox Learned

    ciox
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    Then fix the damage sponging so you can fix the systems that go on top of the monster design, I didn't list that flaw because listing them all and how they interact with each other would take years.
    It is a flaw based on the exact reasons I gave, pretty obvious opportunity to add more character interaction and opportunity for actual judgement on what you're going to hack or not, instead hacking works about the same as the Vita Chambers, you get something for nothing, and the only counter argument is "if you don't like it, don't use it/abuse it."

    The official fiction is pretty much bullshit, nothing was properly implemented until the very last moment, so they couldn't even tell whether it was good or not, the order to dumb down the game came down when the game was still in a protoplasmic state with incomplete levels and barely any AI, looking at the released materials you can see that either the advanced stuff is not working properly at all (the demo video from 2005 where the guy says there's "an engaging ecosystem AI fight that just doesn't make sense to the player so we had to cut it" while getting shot at by a monster while the other monster is ignoring everyone) or it has already been cut before it had a chance (2006 videos or later)

    And the "nerdy stats" were decently implemented by whoever was the original designer before they got pushed aside or had their vision gutted, here's how they worked originally going from decompiled files:
    - Unlocking a tonic slot was similar to incrementing a skill, it gave a general stat bonus depending on the track (Plasmids - more mana, Physical - more health, Engineering - can hack higher-level objects and puzzle fluid flow speed reduced, Combat - higher gun damage and can perform higher-level gun modifications)
    - Plasmids and tonics received a bonus for each tonic slot unlocked in their containing track, plasmids would get a damage/duration/power bonus, tonics would get an efficiency bonus
    - Tonic tracks started with only one slot unlocked for a little more player expression

    It was a pretty elegant concept that's still mostly left in the game files, it was just gutted to dumb the game down.
     
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  17. Master Learned

    Master
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    There is a mod for Wolf09 to make it better, forgot how it was called. But, the game has fricking regenerating health so its all ultimately pointless. If it had healthpacks...

    You're right about the tonics, dont know what i was on about. That and hacking is better.

    But they didn't make it into a "halfway decent shooter". How? They just watered down the SS2-esque parts to the point where they didnt matter, even though they were there.

    Would in SS2 having access to every ability and gun and being immortal make it a better shooter? No.

    To make BS a better shooter they would have to rework the guns, ballistics, AI and levels from scratch... But they didnt touch those.

    It's similar in BS2, it doesnt make the combat any "better", it just gives you more ways to goof around.

    The combat in these games(BS1 and 2) is downright goofy... In how it looks, plays and sounds. For example there is a ridiculous cartoon "falling" sound when those grenadiers throw grenades. Its all very retarded.

    So, unless entire core shooting was changed i dont see how adding simultanious plasmids and guns, a drill and whatnot makes it better. It just looks like an even bigger clownfest.

    However with BS1 its possible to mod it into how it was supposed to be... With BS2 this is less so as it has shitty shooter aspects emphasized that woud be hard to remove and some SS2-esque parts removed that cant be added(level backtracking).

    The site before the game was released, with the detective(?) trying to figure out the mystery, pinpoint the location of the city, was cool. I thought we would get to play as that guy, being in over his head without resurrection and everything. I thought it was finally going to be what it was supposed to be. I thought...
     
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  18. Darth Roxor Prestigious Gentleman Wielder of the Huegpenis

    Darth Roxor
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    It's better than Singularity which had health packs.

    This is something I think I'll never get tbh. First in Wolf '09 Raven let you carry around 10 guns but implement hp regen, then in Singularity they put in health packs but limit guns to 2...
     
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  19. Siveon Black Mage Patron

    Siveon
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    I imagine these kinds of things were argued about in board rooms.

    "Call of Duty is doing really well, and so is Medal of Honor. Conner, add health regen and take away this health system." The higher ups never noticed the 10 guns thing.
    "Man Halo was great. We should use their 2 gun limit. - We need health packs it's what Halo also did at one point!"

    Transitional period, and oftentimes I imagine companies are just trying to play keep-up with the latest hot trends.
     
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  20. Kalin Arcane Zionist Agent

    Kalin
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    I enjoyed Bioshock back in the day. Didn't hold a dik to SS2 of course, but I found it decent enough to play through.
     
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  21. Astral Rag Arcane

    Astral Rag
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    Bio Menace is another good one.
     
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  22. Roguey Arcane Sawyerite Sawyerist Sawyer's Bride No Fun Allowed

    Roguey
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    I'm taking their word for it since I have no ability to play those early demos. Regardless, the shooting certainly feels slightly better than System Shock 2, which was a commercial failure, unlike Bioshock.
     
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  23. Master Learned

    Master
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    Well, if Ken says it sucked, but then they made it way better... i guess i have to trust him.
     
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  24. Micormic Augur

    Micormic
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    I would of liked it if it didn't have that retarded fucking arrow telling you where to go taking all the exploration out of the game.



    Vita chambers I could do without aswell but both ss games had them aswell so w.e, you just needed to find or activate them.
     
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  25. Roguey Arcane Sawyerite Sawyerist Sawyer's Bride No Fun Allowed

    Roguey
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    You can and should disable that, you don't need it.
     
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