Game News bitComposer issue official statement on Chaos Chronicles

[IDtenT]

Atmosphere is horribly undervalued by the industry heads

Is it? I'm not so sure about that.

Have you noticed a STALKER or Morrowind clone recently? What about Mirror's Edge (not a fan, but the atmosphere is there)? Where are the Operation Flashpoint clones? Where has the weird humour gone after Anachronox? Where are the claymation clones after Neverhood?

 

[Darth Roxor]

'rpg strategy - run around the map and fight random battles' (not saying that that's what the game was, but that's how it was presented) and a proper DnD RPG where you can explore a good looking and detailed world with a tolkienesque party.

Yes, there is a huge difference, but not the one you think of.

'rpg strategy - run around the map and fight random battles' as it was presented made it look a lot like King's Bounty/Heroes of Might and Magic. KB/HoMM were ridiculously successful and popular, and I dare say there is a much, MUCH bigger audience out there for a "historical HoMM" than for a "proper DnD RPG" because while the "DnD RPG with explorung" part rings the bells of all assorted Baldur's Gate whores, the vast majority of them are allergic to TB combat.

If done right, they can easily get 250-500k

That's a very, very big stretch if you ask me. The 250-500k threshold has so far been accomplished by lesser-known but cult-status devs who were returning with spiritual successors. Atm, Coreplay has no spiritual successor to tout, they are even less than lesser-known, and their cult status is probably around the "should be sacrificed to appease the gods for violating Jagged Alliance" parts.

Of course, perhaps I'm wrong about the kickstarter audience demographics, but there's only one way to find out (i.e. put it on Kickstarter), and I think it would be too big of a risk.

 

[Vault Dweller]

'rpg strategy - run around the map and fight random battles' as it was presented made it look a lot like King's Bounty/Heroes of Might and Magic.

Only it wasn't, which was made very clear. Thus, it was stuck between the genres. Neither an RPG (in the general terms) nor a HoMM/KB/Disciples-like game, but a hybrid. Naturally, we salute them for trying to do something different, but something different is always a hard sell.

CC is your typical FR DnD game. Their inspirations were ToEE and Knights of the Chalice, which are very worthy games. They aimed to deliver that solid DnD combat experience, which is more than enough to get people interested. Tapping into the DnD market alone, long starved for a decent crawler, might already be enough to secure good funding on KS.

...while the "DnD RPG with explorung" part rings the bells of all assorted Baldur's Gate whores, the vast majority of them are allergic to TB combat.

Yet ToEE sold very well and was Atari's best seller for a while. If Atari weren't stupid cunts, they would have given Troika more modules to make as was planned originally.

That's a very, very big stretch if you ask me. The 250-500k threshold has so far been accomplished by lesser-known but cult-status devs who were returning with spiritual successors.

Didn't Sue Generis hit 160k pounds? A no-name guy without much to show but 'drunken' animations and generic fantasy drivel.

Of course, perhaps I'm wrong about the kickstarter audience demographics, but there's only one way to find out (i.e. put it on Kickstarter), and I think it would be too big of a risk.

Well, it's hard to see them being in a worse situation after what happened, so what do they have to lose, really?

 

[Infinitron]

Atmosphere is horribly undervalued by the industry heads

Is it? I'm not so sure about that.

Have you noticed a STALKER or Morrowind clone recently? What about Mirror's Edge (not a fan, but the atmosphere is there)? Where are the Operation Flashpoint clones? Where has the weird humour gone after Anachronox? Where are the claymation clones after Neverhood?

Are you talking about "interesting and original settings", or are you talking about "atmosphere"? "Good atmosphere" is kind of hard to define objectively.

 

[Rake]

Coreplay has no spiritual successor to tout

ToEE.
Problem is that outside the codex not many people like this game, and it's the only Troika game that hasn't become a cult success.

 

[IDtenT]

Atmosphere is horribly undervalued by the industry heads

Is it? I'm not so sure about that.

Have you noticed a STALKER or Morrowind clone recently? What about Mirror's Edge (not a fan, but the atmosphere is there)? Where are the Operation Flashpoint clones? Where has the weird humour gone after Anachronox? Where are the claymation clones after Neverhood?

Are you talking about "interesting and original settings", or are you talking about "atmosphere"? "Good atmosphere" is kind of hard to define objectively.

Operation Flashpoint had neither an interesting nor original setting. The setting can and does play a part, but it's not the end all or be all. Everything from characters, to setting, to music, to graphical representation, to cinematics to gameplay creates part of the atmosphere.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Only it wasn't, which was made very clear.

And yet I swear I've seen every single (p)review of it saying "it's like King's Bounty!"

CC is your typical FR DnD game. Their inspirations were ToEE and Knights of the Chalice, which are very worthy games.

Hardly anyone except the Initiated Few (tm) heard let alone played KOTC. Meanwhile, ToEE is loved just as much as it is hated. For every person who liked it, you have a popamolefag who read somewhere that it's unplayable cuz of bugs and also hates TB, and another non-popamole guy who hates it for being a bugbear-squashing simulator.

Yet ToEE sold very well and was Atari's best seller for a while.

Well, those were kinda different times.

Didn't Sue Generis hit 160k pounds?

That's below 250-500k

Well, it's hard to see them being in a worse situation after what happened, so what do they have to lose, really?

Maybe. But assuming their Kickstarter fails, that's some 2 months worth of time gone with the wind (~1 month of planning the campaign, maybe less I guess, 1 month of funding), and the game also gets branded with the shameful "haha it failed on KS what a bunch of failures" stigma.

And once more, you have to consider the low amount of trust concerning lawsuits, top model and back in action.

 

[Infinitron]

Operation Flashpoint had neither an interesting nor original setting. The setting can and does play a part, but it's not the end all or be all. Everything from characters, to setting, to music, to graphical representation, to cinematics to gameplay creates part of the atmosphere.

Uh I dunno.

I'm sure you'll find even here on the Codex people who think parts of Mass Effect had a good "atmosphere", for example. I think what you're talking about is something more holistic than "atmosphere" (which is itself rather holistic).

 

[IDtenT]

Coreplay has no spiritual successor to tout

ToEE.

This will sound hopelessly popamole, but I think to a large part it is because there is no default party. It's been a while, so I don't know if I remember correctly...

 

[dnf]

Kickstarter can only be an option if they have a demo to show and an close release date like FTL.

 

[IDtenT]

Operation Flashpoint had neither an interesting nor original setting. The setting can and does play a part, but it's not the end all or be all. Everything from characters, to setting, to music, to graphical representation, to cinematics to gameplay creates part of the atmosphere.

Uh I dunno.

I'm sure you'll find even people here on the Codex who think parts of Mass Effect had a good "atmosphere", for example. I think what you're talking about is something a bit more holistic than "atmosphere".

No sorry. Mass Effect does nothing for me.

 

[Mrowak]

'rpg strategy - run around the map and fight random battles' as it was presented made it look a lot like King's Bounty/Heroes of Might and Magic.

Only it wasn't, which was made very clear. Thus, it was stuck between the genres. Neither an RPG (in the general terms) nor a HoMM/KB/Disciples-like game, but a hybrid. Naturally, we salute them for trying to do something different, but something different is always a hard sell.

CC is your typical FR DnD game. Their inspirations were ToEE and Knights of the Chalice, which are very worthy games.

By Codex standards yes... by everyone else's standards, nah.

They aimed to deliver that solid DnD combat experience, which is more than enough to get people interested. Tapping into the DnD market alone, long starved for a decent crawler, might already be enough to secure good funding on KS.

I think you overestimate the demand for DnD crawlers. It's easier to find a jRPG fan than a hardcore crawler player.

...while the "DnD RPG with explorung" part rings the bells of all assorted Baldur's Gate whores, the vast majority of them are allergic to TB combat.

Yet ToEE sold very well and was Atari's best seller for a while. If Atari weren't stupid cunts, they would have given Troika more modules to make as was planned originally.

I think it may be due to *BG2!!!* vibe more than anything less. I remember most of my friends who purchased it were disappointed how non-BG this game was. And frankly, even I consider it inferior to BG2.

Of course, perhaps I'm wrong about the kickstarter audience demographics, but there's only one way to find out (i.e. put it on Kickstarter), and I think it would be too big of a risk.

Well, it's hard to see them being in a worse situation after what happened, so what do they have to lose, really?

Good question. Regardless of all the "buts" I think there's something fishy going on. When you invested shittonnes of hours in a project, and you have right to most of the assets, you'd think they could just push it through till completion (unless the producer owns the engine/technology used in it). Their unwillingness to do so may be indicative of a very early state this game was in, which in turn might explain bitComposer's actions and why it is unfinishable at this point.

 

[Infinitron]

Operation Flashpoint had neither an interesting nor original setting. The setting can and does play a part, but it's not the end all or be all. Everything from characters, to setting, to music, to graphical representation, to cinematics to gameplay creates part of the atmosphere.

Uh I dunno.

I'm sure you'll find even people here on the Codex who think parts of Mass Effect had a good "atmosphere", for example. I think what you're talking about is something a bit more holistic than "atmosphere".

No sorry. Mass Effect does nothing for me.

Fine, but you can't define atmosphere according to your own personal tastes.

AAA games these days receive massive investment in things that are related to "atmosphere" - cinematics, music, and tons and tons of polish.

Their settings may be trite, their gameplay may be retarded, but I don't think you can say this level of CoD Black Ops isn't "atmospheric".

 

[Vault Dweller]

Only it wasn't, which was made very clear.

And yet I swear I've seen every single (p)review of it saying "it's like King's Bounty!"

Can't comment, haven't read them. All I know is that their pitch created a very different impression, but maybe that's just me.

Hardly anyone except the Initiated Few (tm) heard let alone played KOTC.

Because of the graphics.

Meanwhile, ToEE is loved just as much as it is hated. For every person who liked it, you have a popamolefag who read somewhere that it's unplayable cuz of bugs and also hates TB, and another non-popamole guy who hates it for being a bugbear-squashing simulator.

Which is good because they all know what it is and promising a better game - game they always wanted but didn't get from Troika, with bigger and better story, more areas, more monsters, more loot, etc might just do the trick. Nothing is certain, of course, but at least they have angles to play.

Didn't Sue Generis hit 160k pounds?

That's below 250-500k

That's 240k and the guy had nothing. These guys have quite a lot to show, assuming that combat is implemented and working.

Maybe. But assuming their Kickstarter fails, that's some 2 months worth of time gone with the wind (~1 month of planning the campaign, maybe less I guess, 1 month of funding), and the game also gets branded with the shameful "haha it failed on KS what a bunch of failures" stigma.

What are the options though? It's either KS or another investor who may or may not have them by the balls again.

 

[IDtenT]

CoD MW mission on the boat (think it was the first) with the lightning was great (something I actually played), but it didn't translate to the rest of the game. Doom III had an okay horror atmosphere, but the graphical representation was terrible - which squarely lies with the engine. FarCry 2 was beautiful with great graphical atmosphere but little else going for it. I know that Dice goes to lengths to get the right sound effects.

 

[mondblut]

Pitching a nearly finished game on KS is a lost cause, unless the sum is really tiny. For one, everybody will be, like, "it's almost ready, surely they can finish it without my funding".

More importantly, the kickstarter business is selling dreams:

day one, "we will deliver bestest rpg ever!11": 500000 backers
day two, "it will be isometric!": -250000 backers who wanted first person
day three, "it will be turn-based!": -125000 backers who wanted realtime
day four, "it will be fantasy!": -62500 backers who wanted science fiction
day five, "it will have a dramatic protagonist with unique npcs!": -31250 backers who wanted blank state party creation
day six, "it will have skills developing from use!": -15625 backers who wanted xp and levels
day seven, "it will have mana!": -7812 backers who wanted memorization casting
...
day 30, "it will have blue interface buttons!": -1 backer who wanted green interface buttons.

the more specific you are, the more people perceive it as not being their dream game. vague pitches sell best, as long as you have a celebrity to back them up.

 

[dnf]

Operation Flashpoint had neither an interesting nor original setting. The setting can and does play a part, but it's not the end all or be all. Everything from characters, to setting, to music, to graphical representation, to cinematics to gameplay creates part of the atmosphere.

Uh I dunno.

I'm sure you'll find even people here on the Codex who think parts of Mass Effect had a good "atmosphere", for example. I think what you're talking about is something a bit more holistic than "atmosphere".

No sorry. Mass Effect does nothing for me.

ME can have a good atmosphere if you didn't played anything better.

 

[dnf]

Pitching a nearly finished game on KS is a lost cause, unless the sum is really tiny. For one, everybody will be, like, "it's almost ready, surely they can finish it without my funding".

More importantly, the kickstarter business is selling dreams:

day one, "we will deliver bestest rpg ever!11": 500000 backers
day two, "it will be isometric!": -250000 backers who wanted first person
day three, "it will be turn-based!": -125000 backers who wanted realtime
day four, "it will be fantasy!": -62500 backers who wanted science fiction
day five, "it will have a dramatic protagonist with unique npcs!": -31250 backers who wanted blank state party creation
day six, "it will have skills developing from use!": -15625 backers who wanted xp and levels
day seven, "it will have mana!": -7812 backers who wanted memorization casting
...
day 30, "it will have blue interface buttons!": -1 backer who wanted green interface buttons.

the more specific you are, the more people perceive it as not being their dream game. vague pitches sell best, as long as you have a celebrity to back them up.

Dunno bro, FTL got some good money with his shitty graphix and demo. Expecting to gain millions is retarded tough.

 

[Infinitron]

Divinity: Original Sin - functioning alpha, a million dollars. Not too shabby for a fairly obscure Eurodev IP.

 

[mindx2]

You folks suggesting Kickstarter must be out of your minds.

Remember Conquistador. "Turn-based original rpg strategy from some no-names" or whatever, and it struggled as fuck to meet its goal.

This would do either similarly or even worse. "Turn-based D&D tacticool rpg from a bunch of dudes who made Top Model and JA: Back in Action and have recently been in a money-related clusterfuck with their publisher", yeah, sounds like a recipe for success.

But Codexers would gladly donate!!!! Yes I'm sure the 3k dorra or something they'd get from the 'dex would mean ALL THE DIFFERENCE!!

I guess I don't see the risk here at all with going the KS route. Apparently this is already "dead in the water" and isn't being worked on or pursued any farther so what risk is there to put it up on KS and see what happens. Yes, they will have to put some work into the KS campaign but this work must pail in comparison to the amount they have already put into CC. Reach out to Fargo and show him what they've got and try to get him to tweet about it or give a quasi-endorsement quote to plaster on the front page of the KS.

Just walking away from this just seems weird/ wrong on their part which leads me to believe there is a lot more of a mess behind the scenes than we know.

 

[kaizoku]

You folks suggesting Kickstarter must be out of your minds.

Remember Conquistador. "Turn-based original rpg strategy from some no-names" or whatever, and it struggled as fuck to meet its goal.

This would do either similarly or even worse. "Turn-based D&D tacticool rpg from a bunch of dudes who made Top Model and JA: Back in Action and have recently been in a money-related clusterfuck with their publisher", yeah, sounds like a recipe for success.

But Codexers would gladly donate!!!! Yes I'm sure the 3k dorra or something they'd get from the 'dex would mean ALL THE DIFFERENCE!!

I didn't pledge to E:C nor have I bought it yet on GOG. (even though I'm tempted to do so)
I would pledge to CC.

In any case, it would make the difference as day and night if they would be able to put out a demo.
Also, I suspect both Fargo and Sawyer could give them a heads up (twitter, KS update) if Coreplay show something solid (like a demo).

BTW, regarding JA:BiA they just need to say what they already said on these forums. They were doing what the publisher asked for.

CC is your typical FR DnD game. Their inspirations were ToEE and Knights of the Chalice, which are very worthy games.

Hardly anyone except the Initiated Few (tm) heard let alone played KOTC. Meanwhile, ToEE is loved just as much as it is hated. For every person who liked it, you have a popamolefag who read somewhere that it's unplayable cuz of bugs and also hates TB, and another non-popamole guy who hates it for being a bugbear-squashing simulator.

Yet ToEE sold very well and was Atari's best seller for a while.

Well, those were kinda different times.

That's right.
I pirated ToEE when it came out because I was poor.
Now I have money to spare.
Also... digital distribution.
Also... more people know D&D and Pathfinder now then they did 10 years ago.

Well, it's hard to see them being in a worse situation after what happened, so what do they have to lose, really?

Maybe. But assuming their Kickstarter fails, that's some 2 months worth of time gone with the wind (~1 month of planning the campaign, maybe less I guess, 1 month of funding), and the game also gets branded with the shameful "haha it failed on KS what a bunch of failures" stigma.

And once more, you have to consider the low amount of trust concerning lawsuits, top model and back in action.

Right... it's better to give up before even trying *codexian style*

 

[Vault Dweller]

Divinity: Original Sin - functioning alpha, a million dollars. Not too shabby for a fairly obscure Eurodev IP.

I see your point about the alpha (dream selling reduced to zero), but they are hardly an obscure developer as their games got plenty of positive coverage in North America.

 

[kaizoku]

Didn't Sue Generis hit 160k pounds?

That's below 250-500k

That's 240k and the guy had nothing. These guys have quite a lot to show, assuming that combat is implemented and working.

Just for fun...
http://www.moddb.com/mods/circle-of-eight-modpack
7.8.0 and 7.8.0 NC download numbers: 1800 + 5400
A 10 year old game is still having more than 7000 people playing it for the fuckienth-time!
(1800+5400)*20 = 144000$

 

[kaizoku]

Pitching a nearly finished game on KS is a lost cause, unless the sum is really tiny. For one, everybody will be, like, "it's almost ready, surely they can finish it without my funding".

More importantly, the kickstarter business is selling dreams:

day one, "we will deliver bestest rpg ever!11": 500000 backers
day two, "it will be isometric!": -250000 backers who wanted first person
day three, "it will be turn-based!": -125000 backers who wanted realtime
day four, "it will be fantasy!": -62500 backers who wanted science fiction
day five, "it will have a dramatic protagonist with unique npcs!": -31250 backers who wanted blank state party creation
day six, "it will have skills developing from use!": -15625 backers who wanted xp and levels
day seven, "it will have mana!": -7812 backers who wanted memorization casting
...
day 30, "it will have blue interface buttons!": -1 backer who wanted green interface buttons.

the more specific you are, the more people perceive it as not being their dream game. vague pitches sell best, as long as you have a celebrity to back them up.

day 20: "it will have romances and tasteful rape": +97897087435343544 backers

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/poots/kingdom-death-monster

 

[mindx2]

<snip>

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/poots/kingdom-death-monster

OH MY EYES!!! Why would you show that?!!!!