Blobbers - what's the appeal?

[SCO]

I really can't stand that old genre of blobber where you're fighting the inventory and clicking attack buttons with the mouse in a repeat pattern while square dancing the enemy away. If i'm going to play a game like that it's going to be single player single character, ultima underworld is a fine game, adding another 3 party members and a emphasis on party building doesn't make it better, no matter what p&p nerds think.

 

[aweigh]

you're describing real-time blobbers. monocled blobbers are turn-based.

 

[Celerity]

Yeah, fuck circle dancing. Grimrock would be better as a puzzle game, the combat actively detracts from it and I say this as someone who really only cares about combat.

 

[Siveon]

The first Grimrock would be way better if any combat would have to be solved by puzzles, ala Shadowgate (or at the very least, Ultima Underworld like). The combat tango is just boring.

 

[DavidBVal]

Blobbers are fine. For me, first person is *THE* ultimate immersion. That's why I remember fondly the early Wizardries (1-3) and the M&Ms I played. It feels more like I am exploring when I play a game in that perspective; aerial view of course makes possible tactical battles, but loses some of the magic of "being there". I also liked how Gold Box moved through the map like a blobber, then switched to a tactical combat grid on encounters. that combination is worthy of being reviewed by a modern game, hopefuly.

Also,

Spoiler

 

[Roqua]

So, yeah, having recently replayed Eye of the Beholder, I relieved some of my most painful childhood memories - blobber combat. No control over your positioning, no chokepoints, flanking or general maneuvering.
No interesting scenarios where enemies can sneak behind you and hit your mages.

So, what's your opinion on Blobbers/JRPG combat ? Why would anyone prefer this over battle maps ?

EoB is a dungeon crawl blobber. Try playing MMX and tell me what you think of a great crpg blobber. It just scratches a different kind of itch than an isometric party game scratches.

 

[St Antony of Padua]

you're describing real-time blobbers. monocled blobbers are phase-based.

 

[Obviousplant]

f i'm going to play a game like that it's going to be single player single character, ultima underworld is a fine game, adding another 3 party members and a emphasis on party building doesn't make it better, no matter what p&p nerds think.

How many games like that there even are? Ultima Underworld 1&2, Arx Fatalis, the King's Field series and few other From Software titles... and the upcoming Underworld game? Serious question, I can't think of almost any single player, first person perspective dungeon crawlers.

 

[octavius]

TES 1-5?

 

[V_K]

TES 1-5?

Only two qualify as dungeon crawlers - Daggerfall (barely) and Battlespire (fully), all the others have pretty shitty dungeons.

Ultima Underworld 1&2, Arx Fatalis, the King's Field series and few other From Software titles... and the upcoming Underworld game? Serious question, I can't think of almost any single player, first person perspective dungeon crawlers.

System Shock 2 and Anvil of Dawn (although the latter is a blobber in everything but the party). Dungeon Hack sorta-kinda. But yeah, those are even rarer than blobbers.

 

[Fowyr]

Only two qualify as dungeon crawlers - Daggerfall (barely) and Battlespire (fully), all the others have pretty shitty dungeons.

Some Arena's quest dungeons were pretty sweet.

 

[CryptRat]

Sometimes Blobber combat is more convenient than a strategic map.

 

[Celerity]

So Elminage Original is -75% on PSN. I already grabbed it. :D

 

[Siveon]

Thanks for the tip.

 

[DramaticPopcorn]

Sometimes Blobber combat is more convenient than a strategic map.

Yeah except if there is some effort put in combat deisgn, you don't need to make these encounters.

 

[Dorateen]

I don't know. The massive scale battles from Sokal Keep and the temple area of Phlan were inspirational encounter design. That berserker battle would be interesting played out with tactical positioning.

 

[Fowyr]

I don't know. The massive scale battles from Sokal Keep and the temple area of Phlan were inspirational encounter design. That berserker battle would be interesting played out with tactical positioning.

Are you a wizard? I just came to this thread to post one-liner about Sokal Keep!

EDIT: BTW, Sokal Keep is one of the best or at least one of the most memorable areas of PoR.
Hitting 5th level, learning Fireball from that scroll from Textile House (I think) and using it in Sokal Keep was the tits.

 

[Mr. Pink]

I just think that kind of combat is like a "placeholder" because the devs were too invested in the story and other mechanics to come up with anything interesting for fighting.

 

[Lhynn]

I just think that kind of combat is like a "placeholder" because the devs were too invested in the story and other mechanics to come up with anything interesting for fighting.

I like to think it was due to technological limitations of the time, kinda like with fallout.

 

[Mr. Pink]

I just think that kind of combat is like a "placeholder" because the devs were too invested in the story and other mechanics to come up with anything interesting for fighting.

I like to think it was due to technological limitations of the time, kinda like with fallout.

There were lots of innovative ways to do combat and make it interesting, even in the 80s though.


Maybe it's only obvious to me after 30 years of hindsight.

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

f i'm going to play a game like that it's going to be single player single character, ultima underworld is a fine game, adding another 3 party members and a emphasis on party building doesn't make it better, no matter what p&p nerds think.

How many games like that there even are? Ultima Underworld 1&2, Arx Fatalis, the King's Field series and few other From Software titles... and the upcoming Underworld game? Serious question, I can't think of almost any single player, first person perspective dungeon crawlers.

From another thread (slightly improved):

• King's Field [PSX]
• King's Field 2 (King's Field US) [PSX]
• King's Field 3: Pilot Disk [PSX]
  
• King's Field 3 (King's Field 2 US) [PSX]
• King's Field 4 (King's Field: The Ancient City) [PS2]
• Sword of Moonlight [PC]
• Shadow Tower [PSX]
• Shadow Tower Abyss [PS2]
• Hungry Ghosts [PS2] (Jap only, IIRC there is a translation in progress)
• Baroque [PSX]
• Eternal Ring [PS2]
• TES: Battlespire [PC]
• Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss [PC]
• Ultima Underworld II: Labyrinth of Worlds [PC]
• Arx Fatalis [PC/XBOX]
• System Shock [PC]

Third person games with similar approaches to gameplay:

• Severance: Blade of Darkness [PC]
• Baroque [PS2]
• Evergrace [PS2]
• Demon's Souls [PS3]
• Dark Souls [X360/PS3/PC]
• Dark Souls 2 [X360/PS3/PC]
• Dark Souls 3 [XONE/PS4/PC]

I think there are even more games, but they're most likely obscure as fuck.

 

[TigerKnee]

Also, pretty sure there are no Roguelike blobbers, and if there are I want them.

http://www.vector.co.jp/soft/dl/winnt/game/se481981.html

Not first person though.

Also Gaijins need not apply

 

[Siveon]

Also, pretty sure there are no Roguelike blobbers, and if there are I want them.

Starcrawlers?

 

[aweigh]

Um, how about Wizardry. It has the most heralded Rogue-like element: perma-death; however it doesn't result in a failure state. In fact I can't think of anything even similar to that. What would one call that kind of design Siveon?

Wizardry 1-5 did not feature a "save game" feature. Wizardry 1-5 automatically saves the entire game state every time you move 1 tile in any direction and it also automatically saves the game state once you enter or leave the City. The only Rogue-like element that's as equally defining as perma-death that's missing are the procedural generation and that's a pretty big one.

Now, the previous statements are facts; the following is IMO:

- The reason why you probably won't see a 'crawler that is fully Rogue-like, i.e. it also features procedural generation, is because we all know the dungeons would be SHIT.

- As Siveon already mentioned Starcrawlers did something idiotic: it implemented the Rogue-like element that LEAST meshes with a good 'crawler and ignored the Rogue-like element that BEST meshes with a good 'crawler. Do you guys understand? (I don't mean that in a pedantic way).

I think procedural generation of dungeons could eventually make for a fantastic dungeon crawler but we're just not there yet technology wise. And even if we ARE there technology-wise we're unfortunately dealing with a sub-genre of RPG that is not mainstream hence these efforts will tend to be very limited in scope and usually result in something that betrays its original vision (Starcrawlers).

I don't know... what do you guys think? I obviously am not a programmer though sometimes I pretend to be :D

Thoughts? How would one possibly make THE MOST IMPORTANT FEATURE OF A DUNGEON CRAWLER (the mazes) worth playing through if they're not thoughtfully and carefully designed by a human mind?

EDIT: I know I've been shitting a lot on Starcrawlers and I kind of feel bad about it. They're a small team. But you know what? That's no excuse. Starcrawlers doesn't have character attributes, it has no character creation, and it has no good dungeons. I know it's in development but... you guys know where I'm heading with these statements. When the game is finished if it has the depth that it is currently lacking I will be the first guy to post a rambling post about how awesome it is. I like hyperbole but I'm not afraid to admit when I wrong.

 

[Celerity]

There's 2 types of random. Random random and list random. Random random is what you get from a Roguelike, it's usually narrowly defined by whatever map gen parameters exist anyways. List random is like Diablo 2. The maps are randomly selected, but from a list of maps designed by a human. List random + wizardry could work very well, assuming of course there were several times more mazes than you needed for any one run.