Can RPGs Be Easy to Learn Without Being “Dumbed Down?”

I didn't even read the article but the headline alone makes a stupid assumption: That there has at anytime been an RPG which was hard to learn. FFS even the old hardcore RPGs of yore were no fucking rocket science, after all many of us played them as kids. A good manual was all you need and often it wasn't even necessary.

Edit: Skimming trough the article right now

What the fuck is wrong with the guy? FFS

 

The bootleg games I played when I was a kid didn't even have a manual. Never had much trouble getting a hang of them.

 

So if you don't enjoy the awesome cinematic fully voice acted intro movie then something is wrong.

 

This is the most bullshit argument ever. It doesn't say "I'm an older gamer" as much as it says "I'm an ADD tard who has to finish games in a few days." The only difference that more limited playtime makes is that you'll need more sessions to finish the game. That's not a problem unless you have a rule that says "I must finish a game in ten, fifteen, whatever number of sessions." Now if nothing happens in each play session, that can be a problem, but I don't know any good RPG that has segments completely devoid of interesting happenings for an entire thirty minutes or more (maybe Hommlet?). Hell, he's referencing old-school blobbers -- in those games you move forward and kill shit, and aside from occasional riddles and puzzles it doesn't get more complicated than that. I have a hard time seeing how he can feel there's a lack of progress. Even if he's dying a lot, the progress is that each time he dies, he's a little less retarded. And even if he's dying a lot due to bad rolls, there's no way that's going on for thirty minutes or an hour -- that's him being a dumbfuck, nothing else.

 

By their nature, as far as the learning curve in games goes, RPGs are somewhere in the middle. Learning to play them proficiently is usually easy, while mastering them takes time, but this is the case with the majority of well designed games. Games that simulate strategic or tactical aspects of complex human activities (e.g. Paradox Grand Strategy games) are by their nature more difficult to learn, yet the learning process is not subjectively difficult for a player who enjoys such games. In any case, designing an intuitive user interface without reducing the depth of gameplay optimizes the learning process, hence it is an important prerogative of a game designer, regardless of genre.

 

A ruleset that has abstractions which are logical rather than arbitrary (think SPECIAL vs a lot of JRPG systems) go a long way in making RPGs easier to learn without making it for idiots. Add to that, a tutorial that teaches players basic gameplay concepts through natural use to complete objectives in an open environment rather than strict handholding. Finally, top it off with an intuitive user interface that tells you all you need to know and allows you to access areas of importance with ease -- a good UI can do wonders, especially with the "gamers must be having fun in the first 5 minutes" part -- and I think you're golden.

From there, increasing the complexity amounts to how your progression system effects how players are able to utilize the tools at their disposal to come out on top. Ideally, if your level and quest design is open enough and if your gameworld is interactive enough, you don't need to add completely new ideas beyond the tutorial. Just design scenarios/encounters that require logical and tactical utilization of build and environment/mechanics and the game handles a lot of the rest (emergent gameplay, natural simulation, etc).

It's not really an RPG in the traditional sense, but I think that the Thief games and Deus Ex type games broadly correlate with the kind of game I describe.

But honestly, this is all assuming that RPGs are really difficult to understand in the first place and that people cannot into manual reading. Which I guess may be true for the average mainstream gamer, who knows?

 

As long as you aren't a dipshit and can read, write, and achieve a higher level of critical thinking than a water strider.

 

This guy dont want to learn to play quicker, he wants to fucking powergame from the start. Why can't these people understand that dying is part of the game? I was killed even by rats in Fallout on my first playthrought and never thought the game should have explained things better to me...

 

Yes.

 

I dunno, I admit that I run into the "I forgot what I was supposed to be doing" problem because I generally only have a chance to play a game a couple times a week. I think that's more what he's getting at--infrequent and shorter game sessions.

I take notes, but my handwriting's basically indecipherable to me after about thirty minutes. Gone are the mapmaking skills of the past.

It can be a barrier. It makes me more likely to fire up TOEE than Darklands or BaK when starting a new game. When I had more time (and I do still occasionally) I would just plow through, finish all uncompleted quests and stop at a good stopping point eight hours later, so I didn't need to remember shit.

But I think this is pretty easily worked around by a better journal system and in game note-taking/map-marking system. I used to have to do this all by hand because games were the size of JPEGs. Right now, I'd trade 90% of the graphics budget for every RPG release of the last 15 years for a better journal system. Save conversations. Make them searchable. Index them by the name and location of the character. Copy every scrap of everything I've ever found into my journal. Make those searchable, too. Let me keep a player journal. That shit will make sure your player, if he's not a 'tard, can orient himself as to what he was doing and what's going on. It'll offer a sense of progression, if that's what you want.

 

Well, maybe it's me being a Rampant Coyote apologist, but he is kind of right. We play games to have fun. It is true that some fun things take time to set up, but still we play games to have fun. Also, you guys didn't read the rest:

We must put away our torches for now.

 

So he burned out, and then he started a chit chat about how RPGs are... What idiot would pack a load of RPG on his computer when he is at visit of Asia? Look at my computer, there are a lot of strategies, not only RPGs, books, anime, 30 GB FLAC... Obviously he played few of them, then change in the daylight time kicked in, and he was unable to concentrate. In addition RPGs are art that should be used with restraint. Perhaps there is a parallel with a wine, throwing several bottles of wine into a person will not make the wine better.

 

If the combat grind was lessened and more opportunities were offered for true roleplaying choices and consequences, you might start seeing the smarter players returning to the genre. Many of the modern RPGs are dumb enough as it is, since few offer options for tactics.

 

I think this article was already posted a while ago.

Short answer: yes.

Integrating teaching tools into gameplay (tutorials, gradually rolling out new game features rather than giving the player everything all at once, helpful reference guides, adaptive tooltips, load screen hints, etc.) is totally possible. Traditionally, most RPGs have lacked these sorts of aids, and since we don't have a lot of RPGs dedicated to more traditional audiences anymore, we can't really see how these modern design conventions would positively improve older-style games. Dragon Age is probably the closest we've got, and while it is kind of a simplified D&D system, even it suffers from some of the same old problems (not giving players a respec option after he/she has got a taste of real gameplay, for instance).

It's also worth pointing out that RPGs can benefit as much as any genre from the "simple to learn, hard to master" mantra. A game like Skyrim isn't what I would call particularly complex, but it definitely has more depth than most other games on the market, and even some RPGs. It's extremely approachable (run around, hit stuff with a sword) but there are a lot of secondary systems that flesh things out. You don't have to go in and min-max your character to have fun or progress in the game, but those are there for those who want them. It certainly could be better balanced and offer up even more skills and options, but I don't think adding those would have necessarily made the game any more difficult to pick up and play (it's more an issue of limited development resources and prioritizing, I imagine). Another good example is Deus Ex: Human Revolution, which can be played, more or less, like a straight-up shooter, but players will probably get more out of the gameplay and story if they turn off the tooltips, aids, etc.

Yeah, because teenagers who go to high school and get home at 3 in the afternoon, or get months off during summer break and holidays, definitely don't have any more free time than people working 9-6 jobs for 50 weeks a year.

 

Get different job, or go unemployed for few months a year, unpaid vacation is also an option. Honestly what do you know about current children? A lot of colleges/highschool, I seen around, basically overload theirs students. Then they also have theirs own hobbies, friends, and they are helping at home. Some of them are seriously overloaded and would burn out without these few months of the summer vacation. Or become a teacher. You'd have shitty salary, but you'd get most of that summer vacation as well.

 

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You didn't quote the whole thing:

He's saying that the gaming industry uses a number of cheap gimmicks to make games easier to get into and that Skyrim is a perfect example of how successful this can be. Consequently, it can hardly be called an RPG.

 

Skyrim is so dumbed down that is not an RPG anymore, but true RPGs are too complex and time-demanding? What he wants them? The middle ground here is clearly impossible, you cant have a deep & complex but quick and simple game...

It's what Raghar said, RPGs should be appreciated, not rushed trhough. His logic is as stupid as that article we had about how modern gamers feel relieved when they finish a game, like it was a burdem, so they can move to the next one...the guy isn't playing for fun anymore, just to finish games and enlarge his rpg-dick.

 

I do admit that I don't consider the whole "I don't have as much time for games these days" a very convincing argument. Still, this article doesn't appear to be drawing any conclusions, but rather exploring why "hardcore" RPGs have disappeared.

From the comments:

I assume this is the same Corwin from RPGWatch. Anyway, I think this might be the right idea. I also think it's important that players realize that it's ok to die and reload.

 

Lol KKKodex. Don't read the article, fail to understand it if you do, then circle jerk for 5 pages. Prestigious indeed

 

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Raghar: Just to play games? No.

As for what Rampant Coyote and everyone else has said. We're confusing tastes with learning curve. Just talk to someone you know doesn't like RPGs (just anyone you can find). You can give all the reasons you can to play, and if they are knowlegeable of the genre, they will give a lot of reasons they just didn't care for the type of gameplay an RPG has. And thats the thing, rationalizations can help to convey our feels on a subjective matter of liking something, but there's a chance it just doesn't suit them.

Also, as many of you pointed out CRPGs are not necessarilly hard to learn. Until I see undisputable proof that CRPGs are in fact this epitome of cerebral gaming, I must conclude the elitism is unwarranted. A case in point is Critical-Gaming Network (http://critical-gaming.squarespace.com/blog-archives/). That guy analyzes the crap out of video games and mastering them.

In conclusion: People have different tastes. The gaming industry's need to make a profit by making all people want to buy all games is really screwing with peoples' sensibilities (games are blending genres but trying to lower the bar to mastering a game and everyone else is calling traditional gamers of other genres dumb). All genres of video games take dedication to master, and the industry and navel gazers should not lose site of that.

 

But still, a huge learning curve to a deep & complex game is natural. I spent almost 5 hours playing the fucking tutorial campaign in Shogun 2, and was tottaly worth it. It was my first Total War game and I was unfamiliar with everything, so I knew that I would have a lot to learn. That's my issue with this article, if I wanted a quicker game I would have picked another one, not whine about how the complex games are hard & take time to get into...

And there are quick RPGs, shitloads of them. But the few ones that actually take more than 5 minutes to let you kill something are now "wrong"...