Can RPGs Be Easy to Learn Without Being “Dumbed Down?”

Why are people afraid of playing a difficult game, anyways? How long does it take to realise that conquering a hard game can be rewarding? I guess the direction is opposite now: You get an easy first time through, then try to get the little medals and achievements later. Back in the day you could make it so far, but might need a reroll to get all the way through. Could easily make us think it's all dumbed down or popamole, but I'm guessing kids today have another game or twenty to try out if the payoff isn't immediate, and didn't spend half an hour installing, swapping discs and figuring out the config of the only game within miles. Shiny!-syndrome. In time, they might realise the payoff could be higher even though the accessability is lower. AoD will show them, surely!

 

What RPG fans really need is a huge game that will make me spend an hour just creating my character habilities, not the fucking apearence. An RPG-equivalent of EVE Online, that says "FUCK OF casuals, this is for the ones that truly love this and want to get into it". Shogun 2 is a great example, you can take days to finish a match, even more than on Civilization, and that's a positive thing to their audience. The developers know this, so each game gets more complex & improved, not dumbed down and quick like ours.

 

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Not an RPG...per se...but have you ever tried playing Dwarf Fortress?

 

someone should register and link to this thread.

 

what

My post addresses that specifically -- less free time simply means I need more sessions to finish a game, not that I'm unable to finish games anymore. The idea that if it's too hard you don't have the time to play is wrong, unless you have an arbitrary rule that says you have to finish a game within a given time span. Obviously, with less free time you sometimes want to play something more relaxing that you can get into immediately, but that's another issue altogether. You can have less free time and still progress in a game, no problem.

 

JRPG answer: Pokemon.
WRPG answer: World of Warcraft.

 

As I was trying to say, less free time means this:
I fire up the game for the first time in a week or two.
I spend some time getting my bearings again.
If getting my bearings takes an hour, then great! That was 25-100% of my gaming time for the week.
Same time next week.

I don't think it's as big an issue as he makes it out to be--but I don't think you're being fair to the point he's trying to make about the effect that shorter, less frequent play sessions can have on the ratio of time spent progressing in the game vs. retracing your steps. His point can be turned into a valid point about RPGs being primarily designed for extended, more frequent play sessions which audience of good RPGs has in shorter supply. The solution that most game companies are using is "DUMB THAT SHIT DOWN" to make it clear--you jump into the game, you follow your quest compass and you hit the awesome button. Ratio fixed, job done, time to call it a day.

Instead, a focus on intuitive, logical game mechanics, which has been forwarded in this thread, and a decent fucking journal system, as I suggested, could ameliorate the problem without dumbing down.

 

Not an RPG, but I think the new Football Manager is rather accessible despite being more complex than ever. They added a bunch of pretty short optional tutorials which will get you started if you've never played the series. When playing the game, there's always a "help" button with a search feature available for those moments when you can't find something. The manual can be accessed by two mouse clicks, and even though a paper manual would of course have been better, the search function makes it really fast to check out how something in the game works. The game doesn't hold your hand but it offers help whenever you need it. There are a lot of mechanics that aren't properly explained anywhere, but if they were, the manual would probably be the size of War and Peace, so that's kind of understandable.

The best thing about the accessibility of FM2012 is how the game slowly introduces you to new gameplay mechanics. At the start a new player might find himself completely overwhelmed by the amount of stuff and options there is in the game, but you can initially ignore most of that stuff and concentrate on the really basic stuff. When you play the game more, you'll start to get a better understanding on how the game works, and you'll probably take a closer and more critical look at what your assistant manager and other staff are doing. Before you know it, you'll be knee-deep in the game and spending hours adjusting all sorts of sliders and changing training schedules just to get your team to perform a little bit better or to get enough room in the budget for one extra transfer. It's subtle but effective.

I don't see why RPGs in general couldn't use some of these ideas. Let the player ask for help when he needs it instead of forcing tutorials down his throat. Introduce the player gradually to new game mechanics but don't make these mechanics inaccessible for more advanced players who want to take advantage of that stuff right away (think of enchanting in Morrowind, for example). Make the game mechanics visible so that the player sees and understands what everything in the game does and what effect putting points in a skill will have. Don't hide the numbers because without them everything just becomes more ambiguous.

 

Dying is fun, ffs...tis that wonderful moment when you can reload and evolve in consciousness, where in real life, you couldn't.

 

Carrion: This is a good way to look at the situation (I got too ranty now that I re-evaluated my post). Accessability should not mean destroying the rules of a potentially-great game.

Though, I still take the hard-line that everyone is confusing taste in what one finds fun and perceived intelligence. I also still encourage Codexers to take a look at Critical-Gaming Network as the author has many unique and thoroughly explained perspectives on game design and mastering the play of video games.

I think I'll give Rampant Coyote a post to look at that critical-gaming blog, too (plus he already reads the CRPG Addict and I'm pretty sure he has been here as well).

 

Skyrim hits the point with '5 minute epicness' for the add crowd.

 

All games start off as easy to learn. In Fallout, you start with a pistol and a knife and you fight rats. No diplomacy, no ammo shuffling to pierce armor, no need to have the perfect perks to bring down a mutant, just a straightforward combat encounter. You learn that pistols do more damage than knifes, but use more action points. You learn to reload, you learn about distance and accuracy. Fallout 2 had the infamous temple of trials.

The problem of course is when "easy to learn" passes for dumbed down shit that never really gets interesting.

 

Gotta say that most things in Skyrim I only discovered by trying, like how Heavy Armors makes your stamina deplete faster...also I have no ideia how does the armor rating works in that game, and neither does Bethesda...

 

Because it requires reading, and redding is teh hrad

I'm serious. Presenting game mechanics in dialogue and building context and situations around teaching those mechanics is 5x more effective than all the manuals and codex entries in the world, because you're actually making the player learn by doing in order to proceed.

 

Yeah, I loved Fallout 1 presentation:

There are rats attacking me, maybe I should kill them.
I need a fucking rope to enter the Vault, maybe I should go find one.

No stupid shit like a tutorial pausing the game to display a huge "Pro-Action-Tip: Use your gun to shoot the rats BRO; shops sells stuff; you need money to buy stuff". If there is one thing that breaks the IMMERSHUM, them it's those annoying "you are dumb, do this" texts.

 

Exactly. Documentation is critical. Unless a game system is perfectly intuitive, there needs to be some explanation of how things work and/or what they do. This is especially critical in RPGs that are all about managing character statistics to overcome challenges, where players want to make sure each ability point/gold piece/etc. is going towards what they view as the best option. Recent RPG titles have been terrible with regards to mechanic transparency. Take for instance Dragon Age: Origins. Ability descriptions were laughably bad, giving you only an inkling of an idea of what the ability may do, leading me to pick out some crappy spells (well...okay, I lucked out and the only wasted slots were on the Animate Dead line...I picked 'em pretty well otherwise going Frost/Crushing Prison/Lightning/the one with the mana drain that deals heavy damage to magical foes) in a system with no sort of "test mode" or re-specialization. And as much as I like Dark Souls, the documentation there is bad as well, with erroneous descriptions (nope, Tiny Being's Ring does not give you health regeneration and Chaos pyromancy does not scale with humanity), ambiguity regarding what stats do what (so Intelligence doesn't scale up my pyromancies, but Dexterity increases cast speed?), and not a lot of information in-game of how certain things are calculated. It seems like with games today, GameFAQs or a wikia site are a necessary evil if you want to actually fully understand the mechanics, which seems pretty ridiculous. What happened to detailed manuals of old (shit, you could practically run an entire D&D campaign off the Shadows of Amn manual) and why haven't they at least been replaced by detailed in-game feedback a la KOTC?

 

I opened this thread to mention KOTC but I'm glad I was late.

 

In the end, it comes down to the fact that some people enjoy thinking and figuring things out, other people don't.

 

Fixed. See if you can get someone who doesn't enjoy thinking, creating and figuring things out for fun to ever do professionally anything that requires more than repeating beaten old formulas and routines. Drooling drones are drones both in and outside their offices.

 

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Someone here probably never worked at a big company...

 

If fucking 10 year old could finish Fallout (2) and still have fond memories of it, what the fuck is so complicated about RPGs?
It's like modern gaming made people retarded or something. Or rather, it brought a bunch of retards. Like those dumbfucks who couldn't complete Dead Money because they always got stuck in that safe.

 

Honestly, I think most console gamers woudn't be able to complete even the Install Wizard of some older RPGs...