Can RPGs Be Easy to Learn Without Being “Dumbed Down?”

How horrible were the install wizards? I don't believe I've ever had a problem just doing what the wizard says. It's only in those rare unfortunate events that one can find on the internet where it turns out someone got a game they needed to download tons of software, pluggins, and/or bug fixes/patches to even get running (but again I imagine this is rare).

... And for the umpteenth time what does not wanting to play a complex RPG have to do with one's intelligence? Just because someone isn't into roleplaying doesn't mean they're not working on being a master at Starcraft, Football (Madden, etc.), Puzzle games, flight simulators, and even games like Super Smash Bros. and Street Fighter (plus tons of other games).

Indeed I do believe in developers restarting the trends that defined the CRPG genre in the '80s and '90s, but calling someone stupid for not enjoying those games is blatant ignorance. People with different interests dedicate themselves to mastering different things.

I say keep all the RPG-lite games (ME and DA sequels, JPRGs, Borderlands, etc.), but bring back products for the hardcore fans (because, really, do we need more people whinning on the net for more disappearing types of gameplay?).

 

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Goddamn newfags.

 

The same two people with the similar family upbringing and income where one spends his life greasing McDonalds burgers and the other doing scientific research has with it.

Chances are the former will be far less interested in complex games than the latter too.

 

Translation: Stupid people don't like cRPGs because they are too "complex".

 

i dunno guys, i call Drog on this Gaiuz Ragnacock guy.

 

If this were true then sports games wouldn't be as popular as they are, lot of unwarranted self-importance up in here.

 

A Sephiroth avatar on teh Codex already fucks credibility.

 

Jeez, flamestorm and all because I called bullshit on the pseudoscience. Read Critical-Gaming Network. Many games have complex and rewarding play. Oh, and the Sephiroth avatar is there because I thought it looked cool, so sue me.

And as for smart people only liking complex things like RPGs, one of the reasons Steve Wozniak built the Apple ][ was so he could play more Breakout.

I'm here because I genuinely like to read and post about RPGs and game design, but I don't like people getting put down for your ego boosts.

 

Can we put Apple down, though? 'Cause I suspect the Mac fad has a bit to do with the decline of PC games.

Giauz has a point though. Doesn't take a genius to play RPGs.

 

We should be clear on what "complex games" are. Games with complex rules? Games with tactical and / or roleplaying depth?

Complex rules are just means to an end of tactical and / or roleplaying depth, not an end by themselves (there was / is a recent discussion on the RPG Watch about this in a little more detail).

A designer should ask himself "What tactical and roleplaying opportunities should I give the player?" first and "What kind of ruleset do I need to accomplish this?" second.

This.

 

Another thing that probably turns people off on RPGs is subject matter. If you're not really into sci-fi or fantasy what is the chance that a game based wholly around emulating these tropes is going to interest you?

 

Well, they are the reason why some people think that only consoles have non-facebook games now. That and Microsoft hideous marketing...still can't understand why they never did a "PC HAVE SHITLOAD OF GAMES, MAC DOESN'T!" campaing. Instead, they let one of their biggest & undeniable superiority disapear from consumer minds.

You do have a point, but still the glorious "RPGs" Mass Effect and Skyrim are based on those settings and sell like hot bread...

 

But their main source of gameplay is largely no different from many other shooters. The main thing of RPGs that they have is the appeal to collector's addiction (XP, Money, Powerups/Items, becoming powerful enough to oneshot earlier enemies). The dialogue trees are a toss up among the people who play the games (either they enjoy the conversation simulation or they rapid-press continue to clear them ASAP). My point is that the transition from more popular modes of play to something more slightly RPG is a lot easier because of the familiar mode of play than say going from Halo: Reach to Baldur's Gate II. The current gen CRPGs have hit a sweet spot on what a lot of people are willing to buy into in an RPG, but I imagine marketing and word of mouth has also helped to bolster their popularity.

felipepepe said:

I think Microsoft should have just stated PCs' greater variety of software and hardware in general. Right now MS seems behind the game with Apple permeating all forms of media (Computers, Music, TV, Phones, Tablets, and a lot of portable games). MS needs to reestablish Windows' versatility for software and generally being cheaper than Apple products.

 

Ye olde "I don't have the time for a game that lasts 40 hours, but I think I do have enough time to play four games that last 10 hours each".

Sounds like a hellish life if you only have one hour of "me" time every week or two. Game over, abandon your family and try again.

 

This might have something to do with the new standard to put out 10hr games now marked as 40hr games. Making me think of Skyrim here.

 

I don't think it's the games themeselves that put people off of older RPGs, it's the bad interfaces. Especially for modern sensibilities, a UI is something that needs to be instantly accessible or it's not really doing its job correctly. From there I think the gameplay systems can be as deep as the center of the Earth and people will follow.

 

Not sure I agree. I think the Infinity Engine games, the first two Fallouts etc. had great interfaces that have aged well. No, they don't do everything well, but I mean, stuff like Fallout 3, Skyrim, Kingdoms of Amalur, etc. have far worse interfaces despite being modern games. While it's true that older interfaces aren't as immediately accessible, they are still intuitive and easy to understand once you've learned the game. There are things I would do differently but that's true of basically any UI.

Moreover, in RPGs, the UI itself is much of the gameplay, or at least is more directly connected to gameplay as it's how you interact with the world (stealing = choosing items from a list, growing in power = assigning skill points, conversations = menus). Simplifying the UI often leads to simplifying gameplay. Even when you take things like giving orders to companion characters out of the UI equation, a lot of UI decisions have profound impacts on gameplay.

Consider, for instance, how an inventory system is handled - a game with a quick and easy inventory will encourage players to add, discard, craft, and otherwise play with items frequently, while one that's awkward to navigate will probably encourage players to stay away and only use it as necessary, changing the pace of the game as well as the feeling character progression. Similarly, the decision to show numbers vs. bars and meters can also have a big influence on how players approach the game, with a focus on numbers leading to generally slower and more careful, tactical play, and bars lending themselves to "in the moment" gameplay fueled by approximation and risk-taking. It's not enough to say that a UI is either good or bad - these things may be more or less desirable, and must be taken into account as a whole in designing a game.

 

The UI should be good and clear and there should be clear information on the stats and skills and how they work, nothing should be left vague. But all this shouldn't be shoved down your throat either. The information needs to be easily accessed by people who desire it, but it shouldn't be obtrusive either.

Maybe asking the player to make a million choices before even touching the game world is a bad way to start off the adventure. I mean, Arkania left me scratching my head a lot at first with its expansive character creation system. Problem being that I had no way of knowing what skills are useful and what skills will only get one, maybe two checks during the whole game. I think Might & Magic handled it well how the complexity of the game opens up as you progress.

 

Sports games are also good examples of games that are intuitive to learn (at least if you've ever played/watched the sport in question at all) yet have very detailed simulation and are hard to master.

As far as RPGs are concerned, mostly the issue is that the player usually needs to do at least some reading in order to familiarize with the game, and the game must somehow persuade that it is worth that effort before you get to actually try the gameplay itself.
Another thing is pretty much all RPGs having shitty elements to their design, complexity that only serves to punish someone not familiar with the game but is totally trivial once you know how the mechanism works.

 

RPGs were never hard to get into or complicated. It's even the other way around - they were always pretty easy to understand. They aren't tactical/strategy games requiring thinking, at best they just force you to do some party management. I have never encountered any RPG that would require more than half an hour to get the basics of gameplay.

 

To me that's actually bad. Most RPGs are actually quite simple to play in the end, yet many have relatively complex rulesets that just obfuscate that without giving the game much intellectual challenge.

 

But that has vanished from the player's too, just look back at the blog you posted on the OP: "If you are not having fun in the first 10 minutes, you are doing it wrong". The average player is just a guy arriving home from work/school that wants to have some harmless fun.

They don't want to spend 20 minutes at the in-game store figuring out what will be the best use of money for equiping his 6 characters, they don't want to stop to examine the map & enemies to better position his troops, they don't want to spend their bathroom time reading a quick reference guide on a civilization tech trees, and they don't want to consider each dialog option carefully otherwise they may lose 30% of the game content.

They want to shoot stuff, press a button and something aweshum happens. They want those pseudo-challenges, like pushing boxes and pressing buttons, that can be made without even pausing to think but make then feel clever. They want to watch ME 3 story without having to waste time in combat, or just go into combat without having to waste time reading. They want to turn on a new game and have fun on the first 10 minutes.

That's what they want, immediate & disposable pleasure. They prefer the instant pleasure of turning on the Xbox and shooting people than spending hours building your character/army/civilization and bathing in glory & joy as you overcome all obstacles. Neither are wrong, our choice of fun is just more , what ruins everything is that they are majority, and the industry wants the biggest audience possible always, so we are left few choices...scavenge new games for a mediocre ammount of pleasure or avoiding them completly....Join! Die!

 

I recently played King of the Dragon Pass. It took me hours to fully understand the game (+ reading the entire Manual). I didn't have so much fun with a game in a long time and this game is not complex by any means. I simply do not understand why people play their fifth or so Call of Duty and still somehow manage to enjoy it. I play one Ego-Shooter a year (Last year Deus Ex:HR), but the rest of my time I waste with more complex in depth games. Maybe it really is a generation thing... or maybe it is the infamous console/pc player difference. But the steady decline of mainstream gaming is depressing, you will only find more complex games aside of the major studios (Like Slitherine or Paradox). Even Civilization had to be dumbed down.
But above all I'm missing innovation, just new concepts of gaming. And articles like these call for the exact opposite, to make every game overly accessible, this shouldn't be the first thing on the mind of a game designer... these are really depressing times for gamers....

 

I'd brofist this multiple times if I could.